Immigration, or illegal entry?

[The Numenorian]

Just curious, can we have a list of the ideas that people are considering to solve this problem? I haven't really heard many of the options. I guess I could just wait 4 hours for Bush to enlighten us, though...

 

[toquemon]

Mexico then stole the land from the American Indians and then sold that land to the US of A when money was tight.

So, we bought that land, fair and square. from the people who stole it from the original owners.

Well, we're taught different...

By the time the USA stole those territories from Mexico, the vast majority the native north-american indians were killed by the American army. That territory, if it had an original owner, was from the mexican indians, the "taraumaras".

I don't wanna enter to a never-ending discussion of who stole something from whom... but, another thing that arises here is that history is being altered by the winner.... just the way it happened at the Alamo.

 

[toquemon]

Just curious, can we have a list of the ideas that people are considering to solve this problem? I haven't really heard many of the options. I guess I could just wait 4 hours for Bush to enlighten us, though...

According to some members of this forum, some ideas that arisen to solve the problem were:

1. Shoot everybody out...
2. Deport everyone...
3. Build a replica of the Wall of Berlin
4. Let some illegals to get their citizenship (and pay some taxes)
5. Let all illegals to get their citizenship (and pay some taxes)

I personally think that numer 4 is a realistic option...

 

[markw]

Actually, it's a moot point

Well, we're taught different...

By the time the USA stole those territories from Mexico, the vast majority the native north-american indians were killed by the American army. That territory, if it had an original owner, was from the mexican indians, the "taraumaras".

I don't wanna enter to a never-ending discussion of who stole something from whom... but, another thing that arises here is that history is being altered by the winner.... just the way it happened at the Alamo.

Unless you're pure Incan of Mayan, you're the product of a Spanish invasion and cleansing, not to mention the plagues visited on the locals by said invaders.

So, unless you are telling me that Spanish was their original language.

Seeing it that way, you're no better than us. Now, get back to taking care of your own country and stop exporting your problems north of the border.

And, as for history being altered by the winner, do you really think Mexico would be in any bettter shape if they still had that land? I doubt it.

 

[toquemon]

Seeing it that way, you're no better than us. Now, get back to taking care of your own country and stop exporting your problems north of the border..

Well, I'm sorry, we live in a globalized world, that includes not only money, but people and their problems. It's so nice to explote people but not being socially responsable for that...

And, as for history being altered by the winner, do you really think Mexico would be in any bettter shape if they still had that land? I doubt it.

I agree with you...

 

[markw]

exploiting people?

Well, I'm sorry, we live in a globalized world, that includes not only money, but people and their problems. It's so nice to explote people but not being socially responsable for that...

It's not like we sneak south of the border and round 'em up and use 'em as slave labor. They sneak up here and willingly agree to the terms they are working for.

That's like a hooker complaining she's being screwed. If she gets the money she was promised for the services rendered, then there's no problem.

Maybe, just maybe, if they were legal they just might have some rights. ...and most of us would defend them. As it now stands, all they do is drive the wage floor down on the low paying jobs.

 

[Johnd]

According to some members of this forum, some ideas that arisen to solve the problem were:

1. Shoot everybody out...
2. Deport everyone...
3. Build a replica of the Wall of Berlin
4. Let some illegals to get their citizenship (and pay some taxes)
5. Let all illegals to get their citizenship (and pay some taxes)

I personally think that numer 4 is a realistic option...

Yes. That solves a small part of the problem. The remainder then, following the logic of that premise, must obviously be deported...because they are here illegally. And then there remains that little, ongoing problem of the tens of thousands of people illegally entering every month. To that, I say we must tighten up our borders, enforce our existing laws, and create new laws if necessary.

 

[Johnd]

From the New York Times article that I linked above, comes the following excerpt from President Vicente Fox:

"His push for granting illegal immigrants legal status, and his veiled discussion of a path to citizenship — he often says those who want to become citizens would have to go to "the back of the line" — has been dismissed as "amnesty" by some conservatives. And, as his party faces a rough midterm election fight, Republicans have worried that his push on immigration has helped demoralize core conservative voters."

Illegals desiring citizenship must, of course, go to "the back of the line." If they are here illegally, they are not even in line. What exactly is the President's point?

Additionally, I find it curious that President Fox is inferring that President Bush's firm stance on illegals is political posturing ("as his party faces a rough midterm election fight"). Do we not have a right to limit immigration, protect our borders, and deport illegals? This is especially curious in light of President Fox's recent battles with the labor forces, as well as his own political battles. Not to mention Mexico's own Draconian ways of treating illegals, and immigrants as well...far more strict than than US policy (immigrants can never even own land in Mexico).

I believe Americans overwhelmingly see Mexico not only as an ally, but as our friendliest, and perhaps, our most important neighbor to the south. President Fox has been working diligently with President Bush for the past 5 1/2 years on many issues. We can only hope for as friendly a leader that President Fox has been during his tenure that terminates (as well as his political ventures) at the end of the year.

 

[toquemon]

Not to mention Mexico's own Draconian ways of treating illegals, and immigrants as well...far more strict than than US policy (immigrants can never even own land in Mexico).

I'm not sure this is correct. If that was true, the Hilton family couln't own one of their hotels in Cancun... of the Fiesta Americana chain or whatever...

Many brothers from Argentina, when their country fell into that horrible crisis like 5 years ago, came here to Mexico (legally or not) and they were welcomed with open arms... We don't have a bunch of killers named the "minutemen" in our south border, so I don't know what you mean when you say "dracorian way of treating illegals"...

 

[markw]

I'm not sure this is correct. If that was true, the Hilton family couln't own one of their hotels in Cancun... of the Fiesta Americana chain or whatever...

Many brothers from Argentina, when their country fell into that horrible crisis like 5 years ago, came here to Mexico (legally or not) and they were welcomed with open arms... We don't have a bunch of killers named the "minutemen" in our south border, so I don't know what you mean when you say "dracorian way of treating illegals"...

there's a big difference between investing in a country and and creating jobs as opposed illegaly entering a country and using their facilities, such as hospitals and schools, for free.. I hear Fox has a difficult time with the southern borders? but, no matter, they are just passing through.

 

[Tsunamii]

How come when Pres Fox spouts off about US policy his own policies are not brought under the same scrutiny? Good luck to you if you are in Mexico illegally and caught. Those in glass houses....

Its not lack of law its lack of enforcement. Enforce the existing laws!!!!!

 

[markw]

Perhaps we should treat Mexican illegals the way they treat those from their south?

http://www.azstarnet.com/opinion/125360.php

what's good for the goose is good for the gander?

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

*Abolish the healthcare law that says doctors & hospitals must provide care when nobody can pay.
*labor camps for transients with no legal address (aka. the poorhouse)
*flat-rate property taxes (to fund the schools & services used)

Thats should clear up most of our problems.

EDIT: forgot one, government seize all property and assets of anyone caught "employing" people illegally.

I've just solved the probelm of cheap labor and resource drainings.

 

[ForMiseri]

Conscription!

Why not induct all of these "Law Abiding people into the Armed Forces and let them go to Iraq? We could use the man/woman power and this would earn their citizenship. Let them learn to speak our language and our customs instead of having theirs crammed down our throats at every turn of the damn instruction page. Let them earn their welfare and their "rights" by honorably serving our country?

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Why not induct all of these "Law Abiding people into the Armed Forces and let them go to Iraq?

Dear US soldiers,

We have decided to send you 750,000 new troops to help in your efforts overseas. Few of them speak the same language as you, more than one has a contractable incurable disease. We hope these new indentured servants will be a boon, because when all veterans rights & services are stripped from you (because we couldn't possibly pay for all those VA Clinics) so that these men and women could become productive citizens (who will likely funnel an additional million+ family members across our borders by 2020). Yes we are aware that non-voluntary fighting forces have proved less-than-optimum in past wars, but surely these people who were unable to fill some paperwork out and wait patiently for a few months will be able to thrive and succeed in a super-strict military enviroment and put up a good fight.

-The government.

 

[annunaki]

We don't have a bunch of killers named the "minutemen" in our south border, so I don't know what you mean when you say "dracorian way of treating illegals"...

Please name one person these people have killed. They have killed no one and harmed no one. They are just their to enforce the laws currently in place. They simply turn illegals over to the border patrol to have them deported. They are actually hospitable in most cases, giving them water and sometimes food. Do not believe everything a government media complex spews forth.

 

[markw]

Really? You may find this interesting reading.

We don't have a bunch of killers named the "minutemen" in our south border, so I don't know what you mean when you say "dracorian way of treating illegals"...

http://www.azstarnet.com/opinion/125360.php

 

[Johnd]

I'm not sure this is correct. If that was true, the Hilton family couln't own one of their hotels in Cancun... of the Fiesta Americana chain or whatever...

It is impermissible for immigants to own land in Mexico. Period. Toquemon...living in Mexico City, I thought you'd be aware of this. What is permissible is leasing the land.

Another impermissible in Mexico is that no immigrant can ever hold public office. Ever. Even if one immigrated at age two. Gov. Schwarzenegger, who emigrated at age 17, is able to hold any public office in America, just not the presidency.

Enough about comparing national policies. That is a go-nowhere conversation. Suffice it to say that Mexico's policies would not work well in the US, and US policies would not work well in Mexico. I started this thread to get positions, viewpoints, and insightful opinions on the woefully lacking US immigartion policy and enforcement. To all: Let's keep it (relatively) on point.

 

[Johnd]

so I don't know what you mean when you say "dracorian way of treating illegals"...

To be a Mexican immigrant w/o proper papers (i.e. an "illegal") is a felony punishable by a two year prison term. Deportation is the most commonly used tool, however.

 

[Johnd]

Allow me to reiterate (as stated in a previous post):

I believe that almost all Americans consider Mexico a close ally and friend... perhaps our best ally south of the border. And President Fox's alliance with the US may not be so easily reduplicated at the end of his tenure (at the end of the year).

I did not start this post to rip on Mexican policy (of any sort), nor to rip on undocumented Mexican immigrants. I started this thread because the recent influx of illegals into the US during President Bush's tenure has become hugely problematic. There is no credible argument to that point. Nor is there a credible argument to the fact that Americans have a right to protect their borders, and demand that our immigration policy is duly enforced. And to ask the following questions (and hopefully receive some insightful answers/opinions):

1. What do we do to stop illegal immigration into the US?
2. How many (of the 12,000,000 or so) should we allow to become citizens? (The remainder, by default, will then be deported).

There are all kinds of ancillary issues:
1. Mexican illegals demonstrating against US immigration policy with the Mexican flag in tote. It didn't take too long for the more erudite faction to perceive the impropriety, and, perhaps, the preposterousness of this ill-conceived act.
2. That there was any seriousness to the argument for a Spanish-spoken anthem. Really.
3. The social costs: schooling, healthcare, housing, etc., etc., etc.