I'm so angry with the U.S. and Chinese governments right now!

[Trell]

Depends on the item or material. Forcing manufacturers to buy American metals has driven up the price of anything made from them and it's a good thing more and more AV/network equipment is wireless because the price of cable has gone up dramatically.

I think that USA had some cause on some items, but the way it was/is handled was not particularly smart.

As for tariffs on metal like steel, the steel industry gains profits and jobs, but other industries that uses these metals (like auto industry) gets higher costs thus there are job losses.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Feet of clay? How about "block of head".

Don't let the stupidity of politicians drive your actions. Accept that political crises are usually signs of stupidity or manipulation.

This one appears to have started with stupidity (your guy constantly claiming the moral high ground then doing several things that totally undermined it).

Oh, I am fully aware of the stupidity of politicians. And yes, JT's hypocrisy is quite annoying. But, people like Judy Wilosn Raybould, the (former) MoJ, give me hope that the integrity of some politicians can compensate for those whose integrity is more malleable. She was turfed from her portfolio because she said no to her boss. To me, THAT is the biggest sin that JT committed. I believe he will pay for it at the polls. As for JWR, I think she could stay home and put her feet up during the next election campaign and still win her riding.

 

[highfigh]

I think very many Americans are worried, and rightly so. Even here in EU there are real problems with some former East Block countries turning illiberal.

How much do some aspect of the EU have to do with this? I'm pretty sure those countries are tired of being told that they're required to do things they don't want to.

 

[GO-NAD!]

How much do some aspect of the EU have to do with this? I'm pretty sure those countries are tired of being told that they're required to do things they don't want to.

I think part of it is former East Block countries have little tradition of democracy and are easily swayed by a "strong man". And, if they're tired of being told what to do by the EU, I'm not sure what "freedom" they expect to gain by supporting an authoritarian government.

 

[Trell]

How much do some aspect of the EU have to do with this? I'm pretty sure those countries are tired of being told that they're required to do things they don't want to.

There certainly are some aspects of it that people protests against all over the EU, and certainly there is room for reforms. One of the main issues is that some want to turn the EU into a federation and the population in general is more than sceptical to this idea. Another issue is that, quite frankly, some EU members was accepted as members way too early.

That said, countries like Hungary have a party entrenching themselves to permanent power irrespective of election results (changing laws, constitution, court packing, selection of "friendly" judges, lessen the independence of the courts, control of media, and so on). Poland is on the same road.

One suggested pressure point to make them behave was to reduce the transfers from the EU budget to them, but that apparently is not easy to implement.

 

[Trell]

I think part of it is former East Block countries have little tradition of democracy and are easily swayed by a "strong man". And, if they're tired of being told what to do by the EU, I'm not sure what "freedom" they expect to gain by supporting an authoritarian government.

Your comment reminded me of a joke I saw in a Krugman post this autumn:

Soon after the fall of the Berlin Wall, a friend of mine — an expert on international relations — made a joke: “Now that Eastern Europe is free from the alien ideology of Communism, it can return to its true historical path — fascism.” Even at the time, his quip had a real edge.

And as of 2018 it hardly seems like a joke at all. What Freedom House calls illiberalism is on the rise across Eastern Europe. This includes Poland and Hungary, both still members of the European Union, in which democracy as we normally understand it is already dead.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Update - as the proceedings against Meng wind their way through the courts, China is ratcheting up the pressure:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kovrig-spavor-state-secrets-1.5041436

 

[GrimSurfer]

Your comment reminded me of a joke I saw in a Krugman post this autumn:

I don't think it's entrenched fascism as much as it is a reaction to the rabid liberalism that was championed by the EUs strongest (politically) country, Germany.

Liberals have a way of taking some good ideas and driving them to absurdity. Conservatives do the exact same thing. The problem with politics is career politicians (which is only slightly worse than people who are successful in business, music, whatever, thinking the can solve the world's problems.)

 

[GrimSurfer]

Update - as the proceedings against Meng wind their way through the courts, China is ratcheting up the pressure:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/kovrig-spavor-state-secrets-1.5041436

Meh... two middle aged men who should have had enough good sense to avoid bumbling around China in the midst of a political spat.

 

[Trell]

I don't think it's entrenched fascism as much as it is a reaction to the rabid liberalism that was championed by the EUs strongest (politically) country, Germany.

Liberals have a way of taking some good ideas and driving them to absurdity. Conservatives do the exact same thing. The problem with politics is career politicians (which is only slightly worse than people who are successful in business, music, whatever, thinking the can solve the world's problems.)

There are many reasonably things one can say about Germany, but I don't think "rabid liberalism" is one of them.

 

[highfigh]

There certainly are some aspects of it that people protests against all over the EU, and certainly there is room for reforms. One of the main issues is that some want to turn the EU into a federation and the population in general is more than sceptical to this idea. Another issue is that, quite frankly, some EU members was accepted as members way too early.

That said, countries like Hungary have a party entrenching themselves to permanent power irrespective of election results (changing laws, constitution, court packing, selection of "friendly" judges, lessen the independence of the courts, control of media, and so on). Poland is on the same road.

One suggested pressure point to make them behave was to reduce the transfers from the EU budget to them, but that apparently is not easy to implement.

I haven't heard a lot about it but I have seen/heard that Poland is having a resurgence in nationalism and with Russia going at it with Ukraine, Poland basically said "US has 4500 troops here- bring more, if you want". With the proposed NATO missile sites aimed at Russia, I can understand why Putin is angry but I really don't think anyone really wants to push the button.

 

[GrimSurfer]

There are many things one reasonably can say about Germany, but I don't think "rabid liberalism" is one of them.

I guess you haven't followed Merkel (until she had to soften her approach to keep her minority govt together).

 

[highfigh]

I think part of it is former East Block countries have little tradition of democracy and are easily swayed by a "strong man". And, if they're tired of being told what to do by the EU, I'm not sure what "freedom" they expect to gain by supporting an authoritarian government.

Maybe it's familiarity- they had royalty and dictators for most of the past and only recently have had presidents, prime ministers and other leaders who weren't puppets of Moscow.

 

[Trell]

I guess you haven't followed Merkel (until she had to soften her approach to keep her minority govt together).

I assume you mean her stance on refugees in the wake of the "Arab Spring"? It certainly caused friction within EU, but I don't think it's correct to call it "rabid liberalism".

 

[GrimSurfer]

I assume you mean her stance on refugees in the wake of the "Arab Spring"? It certainly caused friction within EU, but I don't think it's correct to call it "rabid liberalism".

Not just that. Her admonishment of governments on the periphery of the EU who have significant migrant inflows with no help from Brussels is one example. Her failure to acknowledge real social problems in certain parts of Germany due to uncontrolled immigration and high regional unemployment is another.

She's a part time ideologue, which would be slightly better than a full time one were it not for the hypocracy of it all.

She combines influences from growing up in the East and the moral pangs Germany still holds over Nazism to create her own brand of liberalism. Not that there's anything the matter with taking a stance against Nazism, but denying the stupidity of certain policies to a legitimately concerned populace gives the radical right (which had all but disappeared by the early 2000s) the oxygen they need to shave their heads, don jack boots, and start to recruit swing voters.

But that brand is also reminiscent of real politik, like giving the German auto industry a hall pass for flagrant abuses or building a pipeline to Russia for the movement of natural gas that anyone with half a brain knows will later be used as a tool of influence by Moscow.

So yup, she's Germany's very own Justin Trudeau. Liberal. Cleans up well. Speaks well to the comfortable class while pandering to business interests. But her words and deeds create trouble that others are later asked to sort out. Just like Trudeau schooling China on rule of law and the need to let the law play its course, while trying to interfere in legal processes when they suit his political interests.

Sorry, 'NAD. You may not have voted for him, but your stuck with him and the problems he creates. Uncle Sam isn't coming to the rescue on this one.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Meh... two middle aged men who should have had enough good sense to avoid bumbling around China in the midst of a political spat.

These guys were already in China when Meng was arrested. I'm guessing there's greater hesitation to visit China since then. Anybody who went there after this started would get little sympathy from me. There must be thousands upon thousands of westerners living/working/visiting China - a large proportion of whom are American. If Meng had made the mistake of setting foot on US soil, the Chinese would have grabbed a few Americans, I would imagine.

 

[GrimSurfer]

These guys were already in China when Meng was arrested. I'm guessing there's greater hesitation to visit China since then. Anybody who went there after this started would get little sympathy from me. There must be thousands upon thousands of westerners living/working/visiting China - a large proportion of whom are American. If Meng had made the mistake of setting foot on US soil, the Chinese would have grabbed a few Americans, I would imagine.

LOL. Like all of this fundamentally changed China's approach to the rule of law, foreign interference, etc.?

Yeah and if Meng had been arrested in Seattle and China was applying political pressure on Washington, I'd hardly express moral outrage if Australia, Canada, NZ, or the UK weren't leaping to our defence.

I save those expectations for treaty issues, like national defence, not political bitch-fights as is the case between China and Canada (or a China and NZ, which is starting to simmer) at the moment.

I do, however, feel a certain outrage when I see a citizen of one country admonish another country for its foreign policy. And that's what your original post is actually about, GO-NAD!

Imagine your outrage if/when an American on this board starts issuing similar critiques about Canada's foreign policy!

So it cuts both ways, buster. That's why I would suggest that Canada be left to find its own way out of this situation. You don't need Uncle Sam's help on this one, and wouldn't appreciate it elsewhere.

Said another way, both our villages have idiots at the helm. We don't need to make matters worse by trying to solve each others' problems.

 

[GO-NAD!]

LOL. Like all of this fundamentally changed China's approach to the rule of law, foreign interference, etc.?

Yeah and if Meng had been arrested in Seattle and China was applying political pressure on Washington, I'd hardly express moral outrage if Australia, Canada, NZ, or the UK weren't leaping to our defence.

I save those expectations for treaty issues, like national defence, not political bitch-fights as is the case between China and Canada (or a China and NZ, which is starting to simmer) at the moment.

I do, however, feel a certain outrage when I see a citizen of one country admonish another country for its foreign policy. And that's what your original post is actually about, GO-NAD!

Imagine your outrage if/when somebody on this board starts doing the same about Canada's foreign policy!

So it cuts both ways, buster. That's why I would suggest that Canada be left to find its own way out of this situation. You don't need Uncle Sam's help on this one, and wouldn't appreciate it elsewhere.

Ummm....what?

You are missing the point. You jump into a thread that's three months old to argue about a situation that is now being overtaken by events. This is about a specific situation, not about foreign policy. You are trying to argue a point that isn't being made. Red herring much? If you don't know what you're talking about, it's best to keep your fingers off the keyboard. Nobody is expecting the US to declare war or anything, so don't conflate my statements into something they are not. The purpose my original post was to highlight the fact that a couple of Canadians had been take hostage by China, after Canada honoured its extradition treaty commitment and there was not even a peep from the US government about it. Then DT compounds the issue, by saying he might use Meng as a bargaining chip in trade negotiations. That was really helpful. Then, several days after the original post, there were finally some expressions of support from the US government. That was all the original post was about.

Guess what? The Canadian government could easily "find its own way out of this situation". Just cut her loose in return for the hostages. But wait, that would require political interference...

It looks like you haven't been around here long, so let me offer some advice. We try to keep disagreements civil around here. When you use terms like "buster", you're sailing a bit close to the wind. My feelings aren't hurt, I can assure you, but be careful.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Your original post speaks for itself. It is in no way influenced by how long I've been a member of this forum.

Your original post expressed dismay over what POTUS said. You then went on to say some very rude things about another county's leader. This was followed up with your views on how the US should conduct itself with China.

As for "overtaken by events", you're still posting info on the ongoing saga, which is still winding its way through the courts.

Get off your high horse and help your country sort out its own affairs before telling Americans how their leaders should conduct themselves internationally. (The citizens of democratic countries to a good job of keeping tabs on their own buffoons and don't need your help to do so.)

You're out of your lane on this issue and have as much right lecturing Americans on foreign policy as somebody from China or Russia does.

Canadians and Americans are great friends, but don't confuse a free and open border with an invitation to start dictating what another nation's foreign policy should be. That's unhelpful and unneighborly.

As for "sailing close to the wind", we have something called freedom of speech here. I'm sure you have the same thing where you live... presumably it's not situational or at the whim of where the political winds blow.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Your original post speaks for itself. It is in no way influenced by how long I've been a member of this forum.

Your original post expressed dismay over what POTUS said. You then went on to say some very rude things about another county's leader. This was followed up with your views on how the US should conduct itself with China.

Now I am being admonished for suggesting that which the Canadian Press has said: Your PM's actions have undermined his position on the Meng issue.

Get off your high horse and help your country sort out its own affairs before telling Americans how their leaders should conduct themselves internationally.

You're out of your box on this issue and have as much right lecturing Americans on foreign policy as somebody from China or Russia.

Canadians and Americans are great friends, but don't confuse a free and open border with an invitation to start venting about our foreign policy.

As for sailing close to the wind, we have something called freedom of speech here. Maybe you've heard of it?

Yes, I criticised POTUS - he's earned it. JT has earned the criticism he's received, as well. Again, I'm not criticising American policy - it's about this particular situation. Even if I was talking about American foreign policy - which I'm not - you're saying I have no right to criticise it? Okie - dokie. I'm going to stop engaging with you in this thread, OK?