I'm so angry with the U.S. and Chinese governments right now!

H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
I think it was his dad, but he didn't fall far from the tree. IIRC, he did it three times in a row, so there was no challenge for him.

Anyone who's a golfer knows it's impossible to do that three times in a row. Maybe two times, but..... :)
Remember when Scaramucci came in as director of communication and he kisses some serious orange ass? Talking about his golf game and how he had seem him throw a perfect spiral from 40 feet away through a swinging tire? That is why he loves dictators, this is what he wants. He wants forced adulation, forced love and and forced respect and if you don't give it you will be punished in some way.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Remember when Scaramucci came in as director of communication and he kisses some serious orange ass? Talking about his golf game and how he had seem him throw a perfect spiral from 40 feet away through a swinging tire? That is why he loves dictators, this is what he wants. He wants forced adulation, forced love and and forced respect and if you don't give it you will be punished in some way.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
He sounds like a kid on a playground, bragging about what he can do.

Someone needs to tell him that 40' isn't very far and that if he really wants to impress people, he should try this-

 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
And the population of America in 1776 was around 2.5 million. I bet that if someone had asked them for their estimate of the total population 200 years later, it might not be 325 million.

WRT several reasons for the electoral college shown in the link, I guess they didn't have much imagination.

https://www.historycentral.com/elections/Electoralcollgewhy.html
The US Constitution needs a few changes, like removing the electoral college (or make it truly representative), and more importantly, reforms with regards to the Senate to be more representative of the population and/or reduce the Senate power.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Ya know I met with Hitler and he tells me he had no knowledge of the final solution or the concentration camps and he was very strong and powerful in his denial. I take his word for it.
That is the clown that is living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Make me sick to my dam stomach and this country will never recover from what is going on right now.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
That pretty much happened in 1939 with UK Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain who, on returning from Berlin, declared he had mesmerized Adolph.

Politicians are a mixed bag of nuts trying to win a popularity contest by telling people what they want to hear. Sometimes history proves them wrong (Chamberlain), sometimes it proves them wrong but we don't care (Bush in GW2), and sometimes the results are too ambiguous to say one way or another (Nixon, the mad man theory, and the Paris Peace talks).

The saving grace is the division of power between the three levels. Cause it sure as heck isn't the average voter.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
That pretty much happened in 1939 with UK Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain who, on returning from Berlin, declared he had mesmerized Adolph.

Politicians are a mixed bag of nuts trying to win a popularity contest by telling people what they want to hear. Sometimes history proves them wrong (Chamberlain), sometimes it proves them wrong but we don't care (Bush in GW2), and sometimes the results are too ambiguous to say one way or another (Nixon, the mad man theory, and the Paris Peace talks).

The saving grace is the division of power between the three levels. Cause it sure as heck isn't the average voter.
You are correct on all fronts sir.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
The saving grace is the division of power between the three levels. Cause it sure as heck isn't the average voter.
Not so sure about that, to be honest, from a Western Europe perspective. I'm surprised that the current Republicans are so spineless and so willing to let their President usurp their power of the purse with a trumped up (sorry, could not resist the pun) "national emergency" that he himself said was declared because Congress refused funding. A way of selection of judges (at various) levels resulting in newspapers reporting which party put them in power, in order to explain their rulings. Amazing! I'm pretty sure this is not what your Founding Fathers had in mind!
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The US Constitution needs a few changes, like removing the electoral college (or make it truly representative),and more importantly, reforms with regards to the Senate to be more representative of the population and/or reduce the Senate power.
If you read the link, it shows that they were worried about people being swayed by an influential leader or tyrant and creating what amounts to a mobocracy, which is still a concern- it would be very bad if we become a simple democracy.

For the people? Mostly. They don't always say specifically, "We're going to do blah, blah, blah for these people, but not for those people". Well, most of the time. Of the People? Sure, but only a small percentage. By the People, sure- some of us pay for it, so that fits.

Congress sure as hell needs more oversight, term limits and someone else to determine their compensation, though.

Here's something that ought to curl your hair-

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/16/politics/settlements-congress-sexual-harassment/index.html
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
If you read the link, it shows that they were worried about people being swayed by an influential leader or tyrant and creating what amounts to a mobocracy, which is still a concern- it would be very bad if we become a simple democracy.
Perhaps you should read the link before posting so you could reflect on how that worked out. I'm assuming this is the link you refer to: Why the Electoral college
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Spartan
I think it was his dad, but he didn't fall far from the tree. IIRC, he did it three times in a row, so there was no challenge for him.

Anyone who's a golfer knows it's impossible to do that three times in a row. Maybe two times, but..... :)
Heck I've only done it once. :)
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I don't judge politicians by what they promise. Just as I can't comment on what Hillary might have done -- She had her issues, though not as many as Trump. She is no Carter, just as Trump is no GW.

So let's hope Dems and the GOP give us better choices in 2020.

As for the OP, dunno why Canada expects getting bailed out of its own foreign policy blunders. Sure, the Justice Dept made an extradition request, but there's been more fumbling on this issue and political interference in the rule of law in Canada these days to absolve Washington from taking any hits on this one.
Canada is not asking to be "bailed out of its own foreign policy blunders". How did you come up with that? I'm not going to repeat the original post, as it's pretty straightforward. Subsequently, there have been supportive statements from the US government, which is appreciated, although China is still holding Canadian hostages.

As for "interference in the rule of law", there was an attempt to persuade the Minister of Justice to offer a less punitive punishment to a construction firm accused of bribery. However, the MoJ refused and the prosecution is proceeding. Whether the pressure on the MoJ was illegal, or not, is still debatable. Although the Chinese government is trying to equate this with the Meng case as an example of political interference, there is no comparison.
 
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GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
.As for "interference in the rule of law", there was an attempt to persuade the Minister of Justice to offer a less punitive punishment to a construction firm accused of bribery. However, the MoJ refused and the prosecution is proceeding. Whether the pressure on the MoJ was illegal, or not, is still debatable. Although the Chinese government is trying to equate this with the Meng case as an example of political interference, there is no comparison.
There is a comparison to be made between claiming your system is above political interference in legal proceedings on one hand and demonstrating political interference on the other.

Perhaps a NYT reported got it right when he tweeted that there's no difference between both our Ts. They both demonstrate a certain contempt of their legal systems, which they twist to meet political objectives (and are egomaniacs as well). No need to get your NADs in an uproar over their stupidity.

As for China, the quicker we all play hardball with them on larger issues like the South China Sea (UNCLOS), cyber criminality and IP rights, the quicker they will understand how they are to operate in this world.
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
There is a comparison to be made between claiming your system is above political interference in legal proceedings on one hand and demonstrating political interference on the other.

Perhaps a NYT reported got it right when he tweeted that there's no difference between both our Ts. They both demonstrate a certain contempt of their legal systems, which they twist to meet political objectives (and are egomaniacs as well). No need to get your NADs in an uproar over their stupidity.

As for China, the quicker we all play hardball with them on larger issues like the South China Sea, cyber and IP rights, the quicker they will understand how they are to operate in this world.
I can assure you, my NADs are not in any uproar.

You want a comparison? Okie dokie.

SNC Lavalin, a huge construction firm, was accused of bribery to obtain contracts in Libya. They were charged and the court case is ongoing. From everything I've read on the subject, if you don't pay bribes in pretty much any North African/Middle Eastern country, you don't get a contract - period. So, any western firm doing business in that region should be assumed to have bribed somebody, but that's here nor there. The crown prosecutor decided criminal charges were warranted in this case. Meanwhile, the Canadian government has recently brought in legislation similar to that in the US, UK and other western countries, enabling it to offer a deferred prosecution agreement to companies accused of misdeeds, in place of criminal prosecution. The MoJ reviewed the case (she is a former crown prosecutor herself) and decided that she would not overrule the CP and criminal prosecution would proceed.

The problem is, SNC Lavalin is a huge conglomerate, employing thousands of people. A conviction would block them from bidding on government contracts for 10 years, which could have grave consequences for the firm - and the thousands of employees. So, there are clearly political considerations that could not be ignored, especially since a federal election is coming in the Fall. So, the Prime Minister and staff within his office, tried to persuade the MoJ to offer a deferred prosecution agreement, in place of criminal prosecution. There is an ongoing debate over whether that constitutes political interference. For what it's worth, the MoJ herself said that it wasn't political interference. I'm on the fence in that regard. I support her decision, as she had already decided that the case should proceed and that political considerations should not be taken into account - even if her own party could suffer for it during the next election.

As for the Meng case, the US Dept of Justice requested that she be detained and extradited, for which there is a treaty between Canada and the US. The US DoJ must present sufficient evidence that would warrant charges under Canadian law in order for extradition to proceed. I'm not sure the US sanctions against Iran that she is accused of violating constitute an offence in Canada, so stand by - she may be set free yet. There has been no concrete suggestion (other than the Chinese government's) that the Prime Minister wanted her detained. In fact, it would have been much less of a headache for the government if she had not been detained at all, which should be pretty obvious by now.

The Chinese government is saying that the SNC Lavalin case is proof that the Canadian justice system is subject to political interference. It is certainly an inconvenient time for the SNC Lavalin case to come up, but it isn't going to change anything with Meng's case. The Chinese government is trying to muddy the waters, but the cases are apples and oranges. It would have been far more convenient for the government if she was "accidentally" allowed to slip through Canada unimpeded. But, she was detained and she will have her day in court. SNC Lavalin is just a distraction - nothing more, nothing less.

To be clear, I am no fan of Justin Trudeau. When everyone was swooning over him after he was elected, I said, just wait, he's going to be shown to have feet of clay, just like the rest of them. That said, regarding contempt for legal systems, to suggest that there is no difference between JT and DT is utterly laughable. It's like saying a person convicted of drunk driving is the same as a mass murderer - Hey! They both have criminal records! They're the same!
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
I can assure you, my NADs are not in any uproar.

You want a comparison? Okie dokie.

SNC Lavalin, a huge construction firm, was accused of bribery to obtain contracts in Libya. They were charged and the court case is ongoing. From everything I've read on the subject, if you don't pay bribes in pretty much any North African/Middle Eastern country, you don't get a contract - period. So, any western firm doing business in that region should be assumed to have bribed somebody, but that's here nor there. The crown prosecutor decided criminal charges were warranted in this case. Meanwhile, the Canadian government has recently brought in legislation similar to that in the US, UK and other western countries, enabling it to offer a deferred prosecution agreement to companies accused of misdeeds, in place of criminal prosecution. The MoJ reviewed the case (she is a former crown prosecutor herself) and decided that she would not overrule the CP and criminal prosecution would proceed.

The problem is, SNC Lavalin is a huge conglomerate, employing thousands of people. A conviction would block them from bidding on government contracts for 10 years, which could have grave consequences for the firm - and the thousands of employees. So, there are clearly political considerations that could not be ignored, especially since a federal election is coming in the Fall. So, the Prime Minister and staff within his office, tried to persuade the MoJ to offer a deferred prosecution agreement, in place of criminal prosecution. There is an ongoing debate over whether that constitutes political interference. For what it's worth, the MoJ herself said that it wasn't political interference. I'm on the fence in that regard. I support her decision, as she had already decided that the case should proceed and that political considerations should not be taken into account - even if her own party could suffer for it during the next election.

As for the Meng case, the US Dept of Justice requested that she be detained and extradited, for which there is a treaty between Canada and the US. The US DoJ must present sufficient evidence that would warrant charges under Canadian law in order for extradition to proceed. I'm not sure the US sanctions against Iran that she is accused of violating constitute an offence in Canada, so stand by - she may be set free yet. There has been no concrete suggestion (other than the Chinese government's) that the Prime Minister wanted her detained. In fact, it would have been much less of a headache for the government if she had not been detained at all, which should be pretty obvious by now.

The Chinese government is saying that the SNC Lavalin case is proof that the Canadian justice system is subject to political interference. It is certainly an inconvenient time for the SNC Lavalin case to come up, but it isn't going to change anything with Meng's case. The Chinese government is trying to muddy the waters, but the cases are apples and oranges. It would have been far more convenient for the government if she was "accidentally" allowed to slip through Canada unimpeded. But, she was detained and she will have her day in court. SNC Lavalin is just a distraction - nothing more, nothing less.

To be clear, I am no fan of Justin Trudeau. When everyone was swooning over him after he was elected, I said, just wait, he's going to be shown to have feet of clay, just like the rest of them. That said, regarding contempt for legal systems, to suggest that there is no difference between JT and DT is utterly laughable. It's like saying a person convicted of drunk driving is the same as a mass murderer - Hey! They both have criminal records! They're the same!
Feet of clay? How about "block of head".

Don't let the stupidity of politicians drive your actions. Accept that political crises are usually signs of stupidity or manipulation.

This one appears to have started with stupidity (your guy constantly claiming the moral high ground then doing several things that totally undermined it).
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Not so sure about that, to be honest, from a Western Europe perspective. I'm surprised that the current Republicans are so spineless and so willing to let their President usurp their power of the purse with a trumped up (sorry, could not resist the pun) "national emergency" that he himself said was declared because Congress refused funding. A way of selection of judges (at various) levels resulting in newspapers reporting which party put them in power, in order to explain their rulings. Amazing! I'm pretty sure this is not what your Founding Fathers had in mind!
How do you think we feel? The problem is that we can't agree on which direction the country should go.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
...
As for China, the quicker we all play hardball with them on larger issues like the South China Sea (UNCLOS), cyber criminality and IP rights, the quicker they will understand how they are to operate in this world.
Exactly, and USA could have done that together with friends and allies, but instead the current administration opted for putting tariffs on them partly because of "national security".
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Screw party loyalty... right wing, left wing, same damned bird.

The last election was like trying to pick the "least worst" candidate. No good choice, neither outcome good.

Hope 2020 will give voters responsible choices/candidates.
I'm not arguing that total party loyalty is OK for one and not the other.

Good luck with hoping- that's no way to select a POTUS.

I think the whole process needs to change.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Exactly, and USA could have done that together with friends and allies, but instead the current administration opted for putting tariffs on them partly because of "national security".
Depends on the item or material. Forcing manufacturers to buy American metals has driven up the price of anything made from them and it's a good thing more and more AV/network equipment is wireless because the price of cable has gone up dramatically.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
How do you think we feel? The problem is that we can't agree on which direction the country should go.
I think very many Americans are worried, and rightly so. Even here in EU there are real problems with some former East Block countries turning illiberal.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Exactly, and USA could have done that together with friends and allies, but instead the current administration opted for putting tariffs on them partly because of "national security".
All the political badgering won't get China's attention. Knocking them down a few pegs economically will.

China has always been preoccupied with internal stability. They've kept a lid on things because economic growth allows them to pay for domestic stability through rising wages, standards of living.

I'm no Trump fan, but tariffs have been successful in slowing down the Chinese economy and giving the leadership there something to worry about (beyond being difficult players on the international stage).

I don't agree with tariffs on friendly states, but it's a good lever to use with China.
 

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