How to Choose the Best Turntable for Vinyl Record Playback

[Swerd]

Thanks for telling that story about the pick-up cartridge listening test. That physical set-up was expensive and difficult. I imagine speakers are much easier to compare. Is that 1980 article available online?

Once listeners realized that their personal reputations were not on the line, it was really quite an interesting exercise, and something not likely to be repeated.

How did you convince them of that? Were preconceived notions that much different in 1980?

The result? A statistical tie…
So, the premium-priced moving coils demonstrated that they are just another way to make cartridges, and the excellence in sound is measurable. A lot of the listeners went home with modified opinions.

Unfortunately those test results are forgotten today. We still hear the same nonsense about vast differences in sound quality due to pick-up cartridges and phono preamps. Strangely enough, the sound quality seems to vary directly with increasing price.

 

[Paul Scarpelli]

Paul, I disagree with regard to your general statement about MC cartridges. Like all things in this crazy hobby synergy is key, as you've pointed out with respect to tone arm mass and cart compliance. I've been using Benz Micro for fifteen years and they track superbly. As for my phono pre I use one of Jim Fosgate's tube pieces and couldn't be happier.

I must admit though that back in the day my Grace F9e was my favorite MM, it like the Shure has a certain cult status IMO

Due to lower compliance, moving coil cartridges, theoretically, can't track some passages as well; complex passages with lots of low bass, for example. However, audible mistracking is rarely a problem with a quality MC cartridge in the right arm. For a year, I used a Kiseki Purple Heart Sapphire MC and it was the best cartridge I ever owned, out of probably 50 or so.

As you may know, I was Jim Fosgate's national sales manager from 1989-2003, and I use his Fosgate Signature phono preamp, but I no longer use MC cartridges. Jim Fosgate still does. He just burned a half dozen CDs for me from records played on his vinyl rig through his step-up, and his preamp. The relaxed, natural, yet defined sound is very good. And we are in agreement that the F9E was a spectacular cartridge. I replaced mine with an F9 Ruby, and although it seemed (subjectively, Floyd) to have faster transient response, that may have been from an elevated treble. It was also excellent, but it lacked the natural warmth of the aluminum-cantilever version. I suspect the ruby cantilever may have contributed to faster impulse response, but with poorer damping and more ringing. And who knows if they used a different damping block. I am recklessly speculating...

 

[Paul Scarpelli]

I'd like to hear your thought's on linear tracking tables, I have an old Technics SL-10 with ortofon X1-MCP MC cart that I still use and enjoy. do you think using MM cart would give me better quality of sound then a MC cart would given there in the same price point

There are both good and not-so-good examples of linear tracking turntables. The premise is good; mimic the path of the cutting lathe stylus. Due to record eccentricities, the typically short tone arms of linear tracking tables don't always dynamically maintain proper vertical tracking angle. And the tonearms on some tend to "crab" across the record. They boast of less tracking angle error per centimeter, but in practice, they can have more. I liked the B&O, Revox, and Rabco or harman/kardon machines, though, despite their complexity. Your turntable came with a MC cartridge, but I don't know the mass of the small tonearm, so I don't know if you can use a high-compliance MM cartridge. I also wonder how good the throw-in phono pre-preamp is. Very cool turntable, and certainly unique.

 

[Floyd Toole]

Swerd,
It was the reputations of the cartridges that were on the line. The customer is always right, right? Having had a lot of experience with listening tests, I find that first timers are intimidated for a few rounds, until they realize that their opinions are actually quite repeatable, as they tend to be if the hearing is not impaired. Hence they relaxed and as I said, some of them really got into the evaluation. They were listening to and for things that they would normally ignore.

No, the article is not on line. One day I hope to scan that and several other articles that are still totally relevant - it was a long time ago, but the technology has not changed. Even the folklore is the same.

Price is definitely a strong correlate of perceived quality - in everything it seems. Sadly it is often wrong. Then comes the "faith based" side of audio, in which if you believe something, you will probably hear it. The brain is a marvelous instrument.

I fully understand interest in LPs, as I understand interest in '57 Chevys. It is nostalgia, a hobby thing, something to play around with. But, please, let us not pretend that it is superior technology.

 

[highfigh]

I'd like to hear your thought's on linear tracking tables, I have an old Technics SL-10 with ortofon X1-MCP MC cart that I still use and enjoy. do you think using MM cart would give me better quality of sound then a MC cart would given there in the same price point

You didn't ask me, but my opinion of the linear tracking tables is that they're mis-tracking more often than not, just like a typical tonearm, which really has only a couple of small areas where it's truly aligned with the groove. Linear tracking, however, relies on error to tell the mechanism to move to a point where it's not mis-aligned, but that also comes with overshoot that's part of the design and this can become a problem when the pitch of the groove (rate of progression toward the center) is larger.

A linear tracking table, like the old Harmon Kardon Rabco ST-7 or ST-9 were very nice tables but they weren't particularly reliable. Rugged, yes, but not necessarily reliable. I mention ruggedness because a friend who was the service tech at the same store where I worked had to repair an ST-7 that was damaged when someone's wife heaved it at the husband when she found out that he was cheating on her. It landed on a corner and was severely racked, but he got it close enough that he bought it. Once he found a buyer, he decided to see if he could tweak it further and when he loosened a few screws, it popped into position and everything was fine.

Hindsight being the teacher it is, my best recommendation would be to look for old publications about turntable setup and pay particular attention to cartridge/tonearm mass, stylus compliance and making sure the combination achieves a resonant frequency that falls between the rumble of the record and the resonances that could be typical in the lowest frequency information on the recording. IIRC, this was in the 8Hz-14Hz range, but I'm sure Paul, Mark or Dr Toole will correct me if I'm wrong (decent chance of being wrong).

A good analogy for this is a vehicle's suspension system. A heavy car needs stiffer springs than a light car because stiff/light makes the ride very hard, while soft/heavy lets the car float and at some point, it will bounce down the road. Along with this is the unsprung weight- the wheels/tires and the moving parts of the suspension system. If the springs are soft with heavy wheels/tires, the wheel will slam into the jounce bumpers on almost every bump and if the springs are stiff with light wheels/tires, it's another bad choice. Shock absorbers on a car and the V15 IV damper perform similarly.

 

[highfigh]

When I worked for a Sony dealer, they introduced tonearms with servo control, called 'Bio-tracer' and the reduction in rumble, mis-tracking and background noise was, and is, impressive. The base was a composite and helped with isolation, but tapping on it clearly causes the sound to be audible. The tonearm stabilized the movement and relied on feedback from the stylus to maintain proper position. I haven't used a MM cartridge since the early-'80s, but then, I didn't use my turntable while I was selling AVRs and other new equipment that had no useful phono section. I decided to get into it again and bought a new cartridge because I thought the tip on my Denon 103d was worn and that the suspension would be too old to be useful. That changed when I found a microscope that clearly showed its condition, so I'm using it again. I really like it, but presume it's because of the combination of its sound, the lack of tracking problems and my speakers.

However, the table is not without its issues, due to age. The switches for power, Zero Balance and for tonearm position at the inner groove need to be cleaned but my bigger fear is that the servo system will fail. For that reason, I would recommend a simple design that's done right, not fancy, with a cartridge mass/compliance/resonance that's compatible with the tonearm's mass.

Does anyone need a Rek-O-Kut Model 120 tonearm?

 

[Paul Scarpelli]

I fully understand interest in LPs, as I understand interest in '57 Chevys. It is nostalgia, a hobby thing, something to play around with. But, please, let us not pretend that it is superior technology.

In my Audioholics article on "Vintage versus Modern" gear, I make that same car analogy. I raced late-'60s muscle cars, and despite the warm, romantic memories of these cars, they don't compare to new automobiles. I totally agree with Floyd's assessment.

 

[Irvrobinson]

It is a sad fact, as I was told by Phil Ramone - a renowned engineer - that it one of the great crimes of the audio industry that the music archives are full of LP cutting-master tapes not the original master tapes. So for a lot of our historical music we have lost the art that was created, and are left with manipulated, in effect predistorted, master tapes intended to be used to drive cutter heads on lathes making LPs. When CDs came along there were technical problems in the early days, but hidden, unmentioned, is the reality that a lot of the archival music that was put on CDs was inappropriate for CD playback - it could not sound as good as the original master tape because that was long gone. When one compares a master tape with what comes out of a modern CD player, or any of the wider bandwidth options, it is a struggle to hear any difference at all.

For me this meant that testing loudspeakers from that point on meant using one-from-master analog tape, and, later, digital recordings. LPs contained a lot of good music, but they were, and still are, incapable of delivering the art as it was created. Much enjoyment is still possible, which is the good thing. But now in terms of accuracy, we can do much better. We still find things to complain about, but now we don't have to wonder what to blame - the medium is not likely to be the issue.

I know Ramone's work well; he engineered some of my favorite albums. And your quote above is absolutely depressing. The stupidity is amazing, even for the music industry.

I agree with you about CDs. In fact, I amaze some of my friends by playing some of the CDs they loath most - DDD discs from the 1980s, supposedly made with inferior ADCs and whatever. Played on a modern system with modern high performance DAC through good speakers (like my Salon2s) they are really very good. Yeah, some more modern recordings are better, but perhaps the Sony PCM1630 wasn't so bad after all.

Nonetheless, as a digital HW/SW sort of guy, I'm still amazed by the mechanical wonder that stereo LP records and playback equipment are. Not that I own any, but getting two channels with pretty good separation and fidelity from a wiggling micro-gemstone still looks like pure genius, in a way no other audio technology does.

 

[Swerd]

Swerd,
It was the reputations of the cartridges that were on the line. The customer is always right, right? Having had a lot of experience with listening tests, I find that first timers are intimidated for a few rounds, until they realize that their opinions are actually quite repeatable, as they tend to be if the hearing is not impaired. Hence they relaxed and as I said, some of them really got into the evaluation. They were listening to and for things that they would normally ignore.

No, the article is not on line. One day I hope to scan that and several other articles that are still totally relevant - it was a long time ago, but the technology has not changed. Even the folklore is the same.

Price is definitely a strong correlate of perceived quality - in everything it seems. Sadly it is often wrong. Then comes the "faith based" side of audio, in which if you believe something, you will probably hear it. The brain is a marvelous instrument.

I fully understand interest in LPs, as I understand interest in '57 Chevys. It is nostalgia, a hobby thing, something to play around with. But, please, let us not pretend that it is superior technology.

Thanks for your comments.

Richard Feynman said "The first principle of scientific inquiry is that you must not fool yourself – and that you are the easiest person to fool." I can imagine him nodding his head approvingly at the work you did in understanding the roles attitude, bias, and expectations play in listeners' preferences in audio gear.

 

[TLS Guy]

Oh Floyd, those were the days!

I fondly remember the annual Spring trip to the Hotel Russel on Russel Square.

I was a regular attender from the mid fifties until the late sixties. My father and I would usually attend together accompanied by a barrister friend Michael Chevas who was also a keen enthusiast. He like all barristers had chambers at the Inns of Court at Holborn not too far away, and lived at Rochester in the Medway Towns of Kent.

Raymond Cooke bought an old foundry on the banks of the Medway, at Tovil a suburb of Maidstone, the county town of Kent, about 15 miles up river from us. So we got to know Raymond. He picked up a casting in old ruins, that said "Kent Engineering Foundry. That day KEF was born!

Through those Fairs I got to know Gilber Briggs, Peter Walker, Stan Kelly, Jim Rogers, and Donald Chave of Lowther. The Lowther works was quite close by also at Bromley. All of these individuals offered great encouragement.

!959 was a pivotal year at the show, as this was not only the year stereo burst upon the scene, but because I first heard the Jordan Watts module, and had a long conversation with Ted Jordan.

What I could not quite understand was the frequent "back in 20 minutes" sign frequently put up on the door to the demo room. Anyhow we all thought those 4" aluminum full range modules showed great promise.

We bought a pair. Both drivers promptly failed. The VC connection had been made with a conductive glue! This was brittle and broke with the cone vibrations. So we soon found out the reason for the "back in 20 min sign" frequently appearing on the door. I learned from Leslie Watts that they took pretty much their entire stock of drivers to the show, and pretty much got through the lot during the course of the show.

Ted and Leslie fell out pretty quickly. Ted Had been the research engineer at Goodmans, and Leslie was the financial controller. They both got the sack when Goodmans was sold to pay death duties. Leslie was not an engineer.

Anyhow I became increasingly involved with the company, and experimented with lots of adhesives for the cone V/C bond. When I first came to North America in 1970 I went to Canada.

During my time there I became to agent for JW, pretty much by default.

I inherited a large number of blown drivers from the previous agent and set about rebuilding them. That was when I really set about making the cone V/C bond secure. I ended up designing the MK 3 module with the rolled rubber surround. You see them occasionally on eBay, but mainly Mark 2s. Shortly after those went into production the company was sold to Volt, who never produced the module and sold the name to a musical instrument dealer. They still hold the name, I made one attempt to buy the name, but they never played ball. So that ended my career as a driver designer. Probably just as well as this was a significant intrusion into medical practice.

So the 1959 visit to the Audio Fair got me into audio in a bigger way than I envisaged.

 

[Floyd Toole]

The tone arm resonance frequency should be below the lowest musical frequency but above the highest warp frequency - so there is lots of room. Pivot damping is useful to keep the Q low, but the best place for the damping is at the cartridge itself.

Ah the Russell Hotel shows. I was there between 1961-65. I became good friends with Raymond Cooke, who visited us in Canada a few times, and he and I shared just a few drinks in the Scotch bar at the Piccadilly Hotel over several years when I visited England. Laurie Fincham, a KEF engineer later on, is still a good friend.

Figure 17.2 in my book shows anechoic data on the speakers I bought before returning to Canada, KEF Concords built from K-2 baffle kits. To me it was the best sounding speaker at the show, from the new upstart company. But really nothing was very good by today's standards, including the Quads. Tannoys were a great disappointment - the dual-concentric design seemed so logical, but the execution was dreadful (those measurements are also in the Figure. When I got established at the National Research Council of Canada, I used the KEF as an exercise in understanding what made loudspeakers tick. I found that the resonance and huge hole in the response between 1 -2 kHz was a vertical bending mode in the racetrack B-139 woofer. So I put a phasing plug in front of the woofer and behold - the problem went away - see Figure 17.3. I redesigned the crossover network and that loudspeaker became the one to beat for some time. Raymond Cooke visited and was impressed, went home and modified the front baffle to incorporate the phasing plug idea. By then, though, I had moved on to a three way, stepped back design, which he also heard and not long afterwards there was a 3-way KEF, with stepped back drivers Small world, eh?

Some of you may know the Sheffield direct-to-disc era, and one of the most popular discs: the Drum Record. When CDs came along suddenly there it was again, but not sounding nearly as impressive as the D2D. The reason: The CD was made from an analog tape "safety" recording at 30 ips. Now 30 ips analog tape has bass that rapidly disappears below about 50 Hz, whereas the LP does not. In a direct A vs B comparison, the LP version won handily - drums need low bass. But the naive thought that the CD was "tighter" - yup, take away the fundamental frequencies and bass "tightens" up.

Back to the Russell Hotel audio shows. At one of them I was very impressed by a demo of the huge JBL Paragon speaker. It almost filled the tiny room. I went around the show listening to other demos, all of which used LPs, coming back repeatedly to the JBL demo, which had just amazing dynamics and clarity (although I thought the sound quality was flawed). When I snooped around the room I opened a door only to see an Ampex 1/2 inch two track tape machine in the closet - they were demoing with a master tape, no wonder it sounded so good! Too bad the rest of the exhibitors didn't do the same.

Great memories . . .

Floyd

 

[TLS Guy]

Klipsch used master tapes, and always put on a good show.

I have used the KEF B 139 for years. I own 8 of them. I love that woofer, but have never driven them into resonance. I cross no higher than 400 Hz and make sure the driver is more than 24 db down.

These are my speakers designed as a tribute to Raymond. The sort of speaker he might have developed round the B 139. They are in our first level great room.

They are a lovely set of speakers.

I use the B139 in what are now the rear speakers in my AV room. KEFs crossed over at 180 Hz active. This is another dual TL design, although this midline is totally damped.

Those were the studio monitors in my previous home, and replaced by these dual TLs, 10 years ago.

Anyhow, it all great fun. The coupling of video and audio has added a new dimension which I love.

 

[3db]

Here are some pics of my modest set-up. I really enjoy vinyl again since I acquired this product.

 

[Floyd Toole]

I agree, adding video of a concert makes it a more enjoyable experience. Not like the real thing to be sure, but better than audio only, and some of the surround mixes are quite good. This is my 7.1 system, four sound-field-managed subs, 10 ft screen (there is a 65 inch flat screen behind it). Quality entertainment. We rent movies, but I buy concert discs The wide angle lens distorts the perspective - the seats are about 12 ft from the screen. The left and right speakers are the towers from Infinity Prelude MTSs, floating in space: no boundary issues. The center channel is the in-wall equivalent: the boundary is part of the design. Surround speakers are the same units. Nice!

 

[D.P.Singh]

It's amazing to read and enjoy an article such as this over forty years after this very theme encouraged me to understand and seek out a good turntable. I purchased, in this order, Pioneer, Dual, Thorens, Rega, and finally Linn. Tone arm's and cartridge's of the day as well. I was one of the last of my friends and family to abandon vinyl for CD about twenty years ago. With all the recent noise about vinyl I decided to give it another go about a year ago. I read all the trade magazines and decided on a Rega RP6 and cartridge at $2000.CAD. I then went hog wild buying new and used vinyl. I regret that. I did the exact same thing with Hi-Res downloads. I regret that.
Plain old CD's simply are the best medium there is for me.
I loved the article and the comments it drew from some very interesting men whose name's I recognize.
It was 45 years ago this article would make more sense.

 

[slipperybidness]

I agree, adding video of a concert makes it a more enjoyable experience. Not like the real thing to be sure, but better than audio only, and some of the surround mixes are quite good. This is my 7.1 system, four sound-field-managed subs, 10 ft screen (there is a 65 inch flat screen behind it). Quality entertainment. We rent movies, but I buy concert discs The wide angle lens distorts the perspective - the seats are about 12 ft from the screen. The left and right speakers are the towers from Infinity Prelude MTSs, floating in space: no boundary issues. The center channel is the in-wall equivalent: the boundary is part of the design. Surround speakers are the same units. Nice!View attachment 17709

Nice Clock! Banjo Clock. It's tough to tell if yours is full size or a smaller one....may just look small next to that huge screen. Do you know who built that one?

My folks actually manufactured banjo clock movements for about 25 years or so!

I have Serial Number 3 on my wall, custom painted glass with Poseiden rising from the sea on his chariot.

 

[sterling shoote]

It's amazing to read and enjoy an article such as this over forty years after this very theme encouraged me to understand and seek out a good turntable. I purchased, in this order, Pioneer, Dual, Thorens, Rega, and finally Linn. Tone arm's and cartridge's of the day as well. I was one of the last of my friends and family to abandon vinyl for CD about twenty years ago. With all the recent noise about vinyl I decided to give it another go about a year ago. I read all the trade magazines and decided on a Rega RP6 and cartridge at $2000.CAD. I then went hog wild buying new and used vinyl. I regret that. I did the exact same thing with Hi-Res downloads. I regret that.
Plain old CD's simply are the best medium there is for me.
I loved the article and the comments it drew from some very interesting men whose name's I recognize.
It was 45 years ago this article would make more sense.

I see it as you see it. I got into hi-fi some time back in 1974. I bought BSA, Dual, B&O, and Sony turntables, finally being satisfied with a Sony PS-4750 and Shure V15 III cartridge. I still use that turntable today with a Shure V15 V-MR cartridge.; and, although it seems CD and LP sound pretty much the same to me, the snap, crackle, and pop from most of my LP's makes me remember how much happier I became with my hi-fi after adding a CD player to my system. Now, I'm exploring Hi-Res. So far, I have not heard anything from my experiments with it which I can discern as sounding better-at all. The one thing I know for sure is CD is fabulous, not just for its fidelity but for its convenience, and value.

 

[Floyd Toole]

Slipperybidness said: "Nice Clock! Banjo Clock. It's tough to tell if yours is full size or a smaller one....may just look small next to that huge screen. Do you know who built that one?"

My dad built it, as his first first foray into wood carving, when he was about 75 (he is now an amazingly fit 103!) It was based on a photo he saw of a clock in a museum near Boston, I think. It is 40 inches high. He did the reverse painting on the glass himself. He went on to design and build a magnificent grandfather clock in birdseye maple. He is a talented guy.

He just telephoned and wanted help with a new version of Word he got. I had to buy him a new computer at 100 - he complained about how slow the old one was. Tick, tock . . . . no time to waste.

 

[slipperybidness]

Slipperybidness said: "Nice Clock! Banjo Clock. It's tough to tell if yours is full size or a smaller one....may just look small next to that huge screen. Do you know who built that one?"

My dad built it, as his first first foray into wood carving, when he was about 75 (he is now an amazingly fit 103!) It was based on a photo he saw of a clock in a museum near Boston, I think. It is 40 inches high. He did the reverse painting on the glass himself. He went on to design and build a magnificent grandfather clock in birdseye maple. He is a talented guy.
View attachment 17724
He just telephoned and wanted help with a new version of Word he got. I had to buy him a new computer at 100 - he complained about how slow the old one was. Tick, tock . . . . no time to waste.

Wow! Very Cool! Your dad has skill, seems to run in the family.

Do you know who manufactured the actual clockwork? That was the part that my parents manufactured. IIRC, I think Willard was the most popular manufacturer of that style.

I'll send you some info via PM.

 

[TLS Guy]

I agree, adding video of a concert makes it a more enjoyable experience. Not like the real thing to be sure, but better than audio only, and some of the surround mixes are quite good. This is my 7.1 system, four sound-field-managed subs, 10 ft screen (there is a 65 inch flat screen behind it). Quality entertainment. We rent movies, but I buy concert discs The wide angle lens distorts the perspective - the seats are about 12 ft from the screen. The left and right speakers are the towers from Infinity Prelude MTSs, floating in space: no boundary issues. The center channel is the in-wall equivalent: the boundary is part of the design. Surround speakers are the same units. Nice!View attachment 17709

Very nice installation is a modern open living space, which are so hard to design and install neatly!