How to Choose the Best Turntable for Vinyl Record Playback

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I see it as you see it. I got into hi-fi some time back in 1974. I bought BSA, Dual, B&O, and Sony turntables, finally being satisfied with a Sony PS-4750 and Shure V15 III cartridge. I still use that turntable today with a Shure V15 V-MR cartridge.; and, although it seems CD and LP sound pretty much the same to me, the snap, crackle, and pop from most of my LP's makes me remember how much happier I became with my hi-fi after adding a CD player to my system. Now, I'm exploring Hi-Res. So far, I have not heard anything from my experiments with it which I can discern as sounding better-at all. The one thing I know for sure is CD is fabulous, not just for its fidelity but for its convenience, and value.
You should have bought a Cecil E Watts Dust Bug! I don't have significant noise in my LP collection.



I do not buy used LP, except for a few from a collection I knew had been carefully looked after and the Dust Bug used.

Since 1984 my collection has been digital discs media based and some downloads.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Jeez... eons ago I had one of those... on my AR turntable. What a blast from the past.
Best record care device ever. I was one of the very first customers, and have bunch of them and lots of parts.

I use one for every playing on each of my four turntables.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Jeez... eons ago I had one of those... on my AR turntable. What a blast from the past.
Best record care device ever. I was one of the very first customers, and have bunch of them and lots of parts.

Remember the newest of my main turntables, the Thorens TD 150 is now 50 years old and the two Garrards older. I would not change one of them.

That photo above really is a blast from the past. It is a very complete Decca collection. The ffss head, and professional arm and the Decca brush. There is in the picture a very rare Auriol lift. I have a couple of these. I also have a 78 Decca ffss head. I also have a Decca lift and a standard Deccs ffss arm not currently in use.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
I remember having purchased some Watts record care products. I also remember the advertising for those products alluding to Watts as dedicating his whole life to record care. It made me think that Mr. Watts needed to get a life. Later, during my own marketing career, I rejected any copy that referred to any body dedicating his life to any sort of widget.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I remember having purchased some Watts record care products. I also remember the advertising for those products alluding to Watts as dedicating his whole life to record care. It made me think that Mr. Watts needed to get a life. Later, during my own marketing career, I rejected any copy that referred to any body dedicating his life to any sort of widget.
Well you are a self confessed marketer. They are the very ruination of many a good design. MBAs and marketers I have a deep distrust of, and feel we would be far better off without them.

Well it so happens that Cecil E. Watts was one of the great pioneers of audio.

In WW II he designed disc recorders for use in the field.

He studied the LP intensively and made the fist electron microscope images of them. His research lead to better stylus design. He worked out the stylus pressures for avoiding groove deformation.

He did a lot of work on LP contamination. His Dust Bug had bristles and fibers of dimensions directed by his research.

He was one of the greats. His Dust Bug was a thoroughly researched based product, and highly effective.

However marketers don't care if it is any use or any good. They just want it to look good to help sell junk with no decent engineering behind it.

Progress comes from engineers and not marketers and their like ilk.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Well you are a self confessed marketer. They are the very ruination of many a good design. MBAs and marketers I have a deep distrust of, and feel we would be far better off without them.
You're being awfully harsh, Mark, not to mention stereotyping. I know some very capable marketing people. I also know a couple of MDs I wouldn't trust with a hang nail, so everyone should be judged on their merits, not stereotyped.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
You're being awfully harsh, Mark, not to mention stereotyping. I know some very capable marketing people. I also know a couple of MDs I wouldn't trust with a hang nail, so everyone should be judged on their merits, not stereotyped.
Who needs a marketer? What possible benefit does mankind derive from that tribe?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Who needs a marketer? What possible benefit does mankind derive from that tribe?
Marketing has begat a wealth of knowledge about psychology and sociology. If you want to understand what drives decisions and what motivates people, marketing has a lot to say about that, or at least the science of marketing anyway. Also, if you are a proponent of capitalism, marketing is a necessary and unavoidable component of capitalism. You can't have one without the other.

But to avoid straying from the topic, what do you guys think of the Artisan Fidelity turntables? They restore Technics and Gerrards and other vintage turntables, and make them look gorgeous. The craftsmanship is really stunning, I have seen it first hand. Check out the gallery.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Who needs a marketer? What possible benefit does mankind derive from that tribe?
You seem to think of marketing as advertising, and there's a lot more to it than that. Not everything is as simple as a loudspeaker or a record cleaner. Or chewing gum. For industrial tooling and equipment, for example, marketing communications, product positioning, trade show participation, customer relationships, market sizing, development of information collateral... this stuff doesn't develop itself, and you can't sell a product no one knows about. Personally, it is not a career I would want, but anyone working in product development and manufacturing knows you can't be successful without great marketing. It's demand generation and management.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
My earlier comment was not about Mr. Watts, it was about the Watts product advertising copy. I think it was poorly written. Instead of making me think this is a product which may satisfy a need, the copy distracted me to think negatively about the product. I thought, did this guy really spend his whole life developing this product? Surely, such a product could not consume a lifetime of development to bring it to market. The copy simply made an impression not likely to be what the marketer of it had in mind. Nevertheless, I recall trying out the product with results that did not satisfy. Later, when CD Players came to market, I remember the advertising alluding to perfect sound forever. That copy also sounded too good to believe; but, as it turns out, that copy appears now to have been more truthful than the CD Player copy writers could have ever imagined. At any rate, I'm fascinated with advertising and marketing; and, I still marvel at persuasive images and words.
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm using a Disc Washer brush back from the early 80s and use it dry on all the vinyl I have previously cleaned. I will only use it wet when I buy a used album and clean it for the first time. However, my brush is beginning to wear thin and I'm looking for new alternatives.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Interesting reading this morning, both about the background of Cecil Watt's accomplishments (thanks TLS Guy), and the discussion about marketing and marketing people. Although I agree in general with TLS on his opinion of marketing, I cannot disagree with shadyj and Irvrobinson and their comments about how you cannot afford to ignore marketing. So, thanks to shadyj and Irv too.

I have this observation to add to the subject. A number of years ago, I took a course called Principles of Project Management. Don't ask what it's about, I was required to take it so I can nod my head intelligently at others who seem to swear by it. As a scientist, I honestly thought business management courses were an exercise in BS. I wasn't disappointed by Principles in Project Management. Instead of swearing by it, I learned to swear at it.

However, the instructor of the course turned out to be interesting, despite the subject matter. He often used jargon and abbreviations for jargon that I didn't know. So I pestered him with questions about what those terms meant. He kept using undefined jargon, so I kept interrupting him. At a break in the action, I told him I was sorry for interrupting him so often, but no one else present would join me in that, so I had to carry the ball. He answered that he was not at all bothered by what I did, and further surprised me by asking what kind of "technical guy" I was. I told him, and he told me he also was a "technical guy", computer IT. He deliberately used undefined jargon as a way to find out the backgrounds of his students. Technical people usually ask right away what those terms mean, while marketing, sales, & business management types deliberately keep their questions to themselves to hide their ignorance from their rivals. Most of my career, I've been surrounded by other scientists who all believe the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Apparently, others don't share that philosophy. Once I understood that, I got an insight into what makes them tick – always valuable.

The best post so far in this thread was Floyd Toole's photo of his HT system. We no longer have to debate about HT details, we know the answer to the burning question, What Would Floyd Do (WWFD)?.
 
J

John Nemesh

Audiophyte
If you can afford it, the Linn Sondek LP-12 would be your best purchase! Linn has been making the same model (with slight differences) since 1971! Also, it's one of the only turntables where you can take a basic model (or an older one), and UPGRADE it over time! Just about everything on the table is upgradable...from the power supply to the tone arm to the suspension.

"Fully loaded" with all upgrades installed, the table retails for around $17,000...but the basic model starts at just $3000. Even better, you can often find used tables for half of that! Still a lot, but if you have a serious system and dislike the idea of having to resell your old turntable every time you want an upgrade, this is a GREAT way to go!
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
Speaking of marketing, I met with a guy the other day who was quite excited about a product he invented, some sort of reactionary target for pistol and rifle shooting enthusiasts. He did not do any study of the market for such a product; but, he was convinced everybody would want one. The more he described the product the more I thought about how inconvenient the product seemed to be. At any rate, my point is marketing is instrumental to product acceptance. Simply put, the product must be seen as being a solution to a problem. In the case of the guy about to market the reactionary target, I think he might find that unless the product can be easily transported to the range and assembled quickly there may not be the sales he perceives to be on the horizon. Having input from the "marketing" folks would likely benefit the target inventor, better assuring a design that's appealing to the broadest audience.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Nice read, particularly liked reading Dr Floyd's and TLS Guy's stories....I had some of Cecil Watt's Parastat cleaners...I might still somewhere.

Spinning a few records myself this rainy afternoon on my trusty Technics SL1200Mk2 (w/ Shure M97xe cart), had it since March 25 '84 (still have the receipt otherwise I could only narrow it down to the 80s :) ). That Zerostat in the photo doesn't work any more...

If I hadn't dragged my collection and gear around all these years I wouldn't start all over with vinyl, but there are some good memories to be had (and some records I never bought digital versions of).
tt.jpg
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Ninja
All I can say is that this entire thread has been an enlightening education, and of course this started with a timely and well written article by Mr. Scarpellii. I appreciate all the thoughtful contributors. The details of both personal relationships and technical insight is invaluable to me.

I have a very modest TT and just started playing some vinyl again after 20+ years of only CD's. What I'm finding is that I have a number of record albums that sound better than the CD version, and know now after reading through this thread that there may well be more in those 12" disks than I've heard yet. It would be hard for me to justify spending more money on it, but I can't deny being interested in a Linn Sondek or VPI product in the not-too-distant future.
 
J

Jeffrey S. Albaugh

Audioholic
Back in the day, I had a Phillips 212 with a Shure V15 type 5 cartridge. I can honestly say that I only believed in belt driven Turntables. Prior to that I had a BIC Turntable. It was the one that you could suspend it upside down, and it would track the record from beginning to end. Cool at the time. I had a crazy collection of Super Audio Vinyl such as Mobile Fidelity Half Speed Masters, and maney other types. I will look for my list. I hope that I can find it still. If I do, I'll post it.

By far the top Vinyl Disc I owned was the Mobile Fidelity UHQR (Ultra High Quality Record. Cut on double thick JVC Japanese Vinyl cut at half speed. I bought it directly from MFSL for $50.00, when it was first up for sale. Mine had a very low number, which is very collectible. It came in a Gold Box with unbelievable packing. It came with a certificate of Authenticity & serial number. Oh, by the way it was the Beatles Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band! I kicked myself in the rear many times for having sold it. There were only 5,000 made in the world. The last time I saw one for sale they wanted $1250.00 for it. Now, I have sunk to a new low. I have a Technics SL-6 Linear Tracking arm, but I rarely use it anymore.
 
Paul Scarpelli

Paul Scarpelli

Audio Pragmatist
Back in the day, I had a Phillips 212 with a Shure V15 type 5 cartridge. I can honestly say that I only believed in belt driven Turntables. Prior to that I had a BIC Turntable. It was the one that you could suspend it upside down, and it would track the record from beginning to end. Cool at the time. I had a crazy collection of Super Audio Vinyl such as Mobile Fidelity Half Speed Masters, and maney other types. I will look for my list. I hope that I can find it still. If I do, I'll post it.

By far the top Vinyl Disc I owned was the Mobile Fidelity UHQR (Ultra High Quality Record. Cut on double thick JVC Japanese Vinyl cut at half speed. I bought it directly from MFSL for $50.00, when it was first up for sale. Mine had a very low number, which is very collectible. It came in a Gold Box with unbelievable packing. It came with a certificate of Authenticity & serial number. Oh, by the way it was the Beatles Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band! I kicked myself in the rear many times for having sold it. There were only 5,000 made in the world. The last time I saw one for sale they wanted $1250.00 for it. Now, I have sunk to a new low. I have a Technics SL-6 Linear Tracking arm, but I rarely use it anymore.
I share your love of belt-drive 'tables, even though my current unit is a heavy Micro Seiki-built direct drive. I had quite a few UHQRs, in perfect shape, and I sold them on eBay for a fortune maybe 12 years ago. I also had the Mobile Fidelity Beatles Collection, unplayed, and I sold it, too. Mistake. Hey, thanks for ruining my evening... ;)
 
J

Jeffrey S. Albaugh

Audioholic
I share your love of belt-drive 'tables, even though my current unit is a heavy Micro Seiki-built direct drive. I had quite a few UHQRs, in perfect shape, and I sold them on eBay for a fortune maybe 12 years ago. I also had the Mobile Fidelity Beatles Collection, unplayed, and I sold it, too. Mistake. Hey, thanks for ruining my evening... ;)
Paul: To this day, I'm upset about my stupidity to sell these great records. Hindesite is always 20/20.
The other reason I love belt drive T/T's is because the rubber belt does not pass along any vibrations, noise, hum. With Direct Drive T/T's, any abnormalities that are related to the motor will show up directly to the platter. BTW, I did not attempt to ruin your evening by no means.
 
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