How Does Morality Change?

[mtrycrafts]

.... And I think her followers are seriously wrong.

Like the previous Speaker of the House. made his staff read the book.

 

[highfigh]

The single greatest threat to our democratic republic is the voter apathy which is oft lamented and well documented for any that care to look. It is OUR responsibility to guide our elected leaders, not just rubber stamp their ascendancy to the leadership class of McConnell, Schumer, Pelosi, Cheney, Bush, Clinton... or any other. Voter turnout in most elections is abysmal because they aren't glorious. But those School Board members, local Sheriffs, city council/assembly people, state assembly... This is where the future of our country starts. We turn our backs on these contests, and we lose the single greatest part of our process: Choosing Our Leaders.

I'm done now.

Ever try to write or call and get a straight answer from a member of Congress? It's damn hard, the wait is long and it's a grueling process unless someone gets time alone with them say, by disabling an elevator or something.

 

[highfigh]

#PositiveLifeChoice

Maybe he lost a bet during college.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... The majority of hotel chains, restaurants, landscaping, cooks, housekeepers, car washes, construction work is performed daily by undocumented workers.
....

Let's not exclude the trumpster's Florida club and perhaps some other who has such employees and others on work visa.

 

[highfigh]

@Irvrobinson
This morning, after coffee, I read the Ayn Rand page on Wikipedia, the internet version of Cliff's Notes. I think she had a sad personal history especially in Russia during & after the Revolution , and she suffered from taking too much Benzedrine. And I think her followers are seriously wrong.

Did you read the section about The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged? I think the premises are interesting but overall, a lot of her ideas were over-reaction to her past life.

 

[Irvrobinson]

And, at one time there was a 92% marginal tax bracket that is rarely brought up. And the country prospered.

Because practically no one paid it. The tax code back then had even more loopholes than today. Big companies gave executives liberal expense accounts, expensive perks, company cars with drivers, etc. The capital gains rate was 25% in 1950, much like today. In frustration, remember, the Alternative Minimum Tax was enacted in the early 1980s in an attempt to catch the richest few that paid little or no tax at all.

 

[Swerd]

Maybe he can have one made with a clear panel that lets his Nixon tattoo show (WTF is the deal with that??????????).

Stone's Nixon tattoo will finally get Nixon's likeness put in prison where he belonged.

 

[lovinthehd]

Stone's Nixon tattoo will finally get Nixon's likeness put in prison where he belonged.

You might enjoy this, I know I did

 

[Swerd]

Did you read the section about The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged? I think the premises are interesting but overall, a lot of her ideas were over-reaction to her past life.

I can't agree that any of her premises were interesting, I think they were naive and unrealistic, at best, as I find most forms of libertarianism. At worst her actions, such as her anti-red activities & writings in Hollywood, were little better than witch hunts. Those were far from libertanianism or lassie-faire.

But I do agree that her ideas may have been over-reactions to her experiences as a young woman in Russia.

 

[Swerd]

You might enjoy this, I know I did
View attachment 27996

Nice one . However, I think Nixon was much worse. Compared to Nixon, Trump is a small time fraudulent businessman – as far as we presently know.

Nixon directly violated the Constitution by running a privately funded secret police force (the Plumbers) out of the White House without Congressional knowledge, approval, funding, or oversight.

Nixon obstructed justice during the Watergate investigation by lying and instructing others to lie, by firing the Watergate Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox, and by destroying evidence, erasing 18½ minutes of tape recordings that he considered particularly incriminating.

He was guilty of violating the Logan Act, which prevents civilians from interfering with US foreign relations. In October 1968 while running for president, he told the South Vietnamese government to boycott the peace negotiations that the US had demanded and the North Vietnamese had finally agreed to attend. Nixon's paranoia over this being revealed was most likely the reason why he created the Plumbers and directed them to conduct so many illegal break-ins.

He unnecessarily prolonged the Vietnamese War by 5 years only to get himself re-elected.

Trump, on the other hand, has it over Nixon by aiding and abetting Russia, a country that poses a direct military threat to the US. Not quite treason, but certainly compromising vital US security interests.

 

[lovinthehd]

Nice one . However, I think Nixon was much worse. Compared to Nixon, Trump is a small time fraudulent businessman – as far as we presently know.

Nixon directly violated the Constitution by running a privately funded secret police force (the Plumbers) out of the White House without Congressional knowledge, approval, funding, or oversight.

Nixon obstructed justice during the investigation of Watergate by lying and instructing others to lie, by firing the Watergate Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox, and destroyed evidence by erasing 18½ minutes of tape recordings that he considered particularly incriminating.

He was guilty of violating the Logan Act, which prevents civilians from interfering with US foreign relations. In October 1968 while running for president, he told the South Vietnamese government to boycott the peace negotiations that the US had demanded and the North Vietnamese had finally agreed to attend. Nixon's paranoia over this being revealed was most likely the reason why he created the Plumbers and directed them to conduct so many illegal break-ins.

He prolonged the Vietnamese War by 5 years only to get himself re-elected.

Trump, on the other hand, has it over Nixon by aiding and abetting Russia, a country that poses a direct military threat to the US. Not quite treason, but certainly compromising vital US security interests.

How did Highfigh put it....Human Nature on parade?

 

[Swerd]

How did Highfigh put it....Human Nature on parade?

Maybe the Worst of Human Nature on parade.

But I have a problem when I hear that because too often people would say "Yes Nixon was a crook, but aren't they all?" As if to excuse it by saying all politicians are crooks. I'm not that cynical.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've not been impressed with the republicans starting with McCarthy, then Nixon, then the Bush family....and now the drumpf. Really disappointing. I once voted republican, too, but they've devolved so much what with the odd alliances with the nutso evangelists and racists particularly.

ps not to mention their particularly poor performance on things fiscal

 

[lovinthehd]

Maybe the Worst of Human Nature on parade.

But I have a problem when I hear that because too often people would say "Yes Nixon was a crook, but aren't they all?" As if to excuse it by saying all politicians are crooks. I'm not that cynical.

republicans seem to like the bad side as long as they're "winning" as if the competition itself is all important, maybe just some authoritarianism (for others) applies

 

[KEW]

Maybe he can have one made with a clear panel that lets his Nixon tattoo show (WTF is the deal with that??????????).

I think Stone is probably more concerned about getting a jailhouse tatoo of Trump on the other side to help cement a presidential pardon. I suspect Trump is fully aware that Nixon is there but he isn't - WTF!

 

[shadyJ]

This morning, after coffee, I read the Ayn Rand page on Wikipedia, the internet version of Cliff's Notes. I think she had a sad personal history especially in Russia during & after the Revolution , and she suffered from taking too much Benzedrine. And I think her followers are seriously wrong.

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
-John Rogers

 

[herbu]

I have given you the answer twice.
Trump redifined the wall as.immoral when he framed the immigrants as rapists and murderers in a very unrealistic and racist manner.
I can only guess that you haven't acknowledged it because it is inconvenient to you position or you don't get it.
If Trump merely asked for funding for 200 additional miles of fencing to improve border security he would have gotten it without any debate.

Thanks, Kurt.
1. Trump redefined the wall as immoral? So you support an action because of reasons A, B & C. But if somebody you don't like adds a "reason D" with which you disagree, you withdraw support for the action? A, B & C haven't changed.

2. Neither the president nor Joe Republican believes all illegal immigrants are rapists and murderers. But you cannot deny that some of them are. What happened to the favorite Dem mantra that, "If only one life is saved..."? I could show you Homeland or FBI numbers about the thousands of violent crimes committed by illegals every year, but it would do no good. You would respond with other numbers to dispute. I'm not gonna get in a debate over whose numbers are right. But saying that Trump or his supporters believe all illegals are violent criminals is pretty ridiculous. (They ARE all criminals by definition.)

3. $5B isn't even in the ballpark for a 2k mile wall. Of course the intent/plan is to do the high traffic areas, then expand or evolve as necessary. You're telling me all the rancor is because Trump didn't ask nicely? I don't think so. And of course Republicans want a multi-faceted approach to border security. One that includes a wall where appropriate.

If separating an illegal alien family for processing is immoral, where was the outrage when Clinton passed the law? Where was the outrage when Obama enforced it for many thousands of families more than Trump? (You do know the initial pictures of kids in cages under space blankets were from Obama's time, not Trump's... right?) If a wall is immoral, where was the outrage when virtually every Democrat politician voted for it? All of the reasons Dems explained for supporting a wall still exist, and with rapidly increasing magnitude. I still cannot find any logic in what looks like a complete reversal of morals from the Dem party. Well, no logic except for pure politics. That doesn't surprise me. But the level of hate and vitriol, ("Bitterly abusive feeling or expression"),from smart and good people, continues to bewilder me.

 

[highfigh]

Maybe the Worst of Human Nature on parade.


EXACTLY! Personally, I think FB and the other 'instant message without thinking' platforms have caused a lot of the discord because people don't bother to think about what they're writing, then don't edit it, to be civil. There's no reason for adults to call each other childish names, lob insults and unfriend people for their choices and ideas.

But this is politics and it is an area where people become very passionate- it's up to them to control their temper and try to discuss/debate more calmly.

[But I have a problem when I hear that because too often people would say "Yes Nixon was a crook, but aren't they all?" As if to excuse it by saying all politicians are crooks. I'm not that cynical.]

I don't think they're all crooks but, having been born in the late-'50s, I remember when we still had a few who could be called 'Statesman' (not that I wish women hadn't entered the ring, but that was the word used at the time).

 

[Irvrobinson]

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."
-John Rogers

A comic book writer calls other people emotionally stunted? And Rand has unbelievable heroes? That's funny. Actually, most of what I noticed was that she had dumb ideas about imaginary technologies. Compact motors that used atmospheric electricity as an energy source? Or Rearden Metal? Even Star Trek has better ideas. On the other hand, her character development skills as a novelist were quite exceptional, IMO, however skewed the messages of her plots were.

I distinctly remember the situation that got me to read The Fountainhead. In the early 1980s I was working as a systems software developer for mainframes, and one of my colleagues was a woman who was approximately my mother's age. One day she told me that I reminded her of Howard Roark. When I didn't know who Howard Roark was, she chided me for being so ignorant of modern literature, and told me about The Fountainhead. Out of curiosity, since a personal observation was involved, I went to the public library that weekend and checked out the novel. Back then I couldn't just do an internet search to understand what she was talking about. I thought the plot of the novel was mostly dumb, but I was I taken aback by how skilled Rand was at character development, especially for the protagonist Howard Roark. I was quite flattered by my coworker's comparison of me to Roark. When I thanked her later for the compliment she told me that it wasn't intended as a compliment. Too late.

I subsequently read Atlas Shrugged to see what all the hubbub was about. I didn't care for it. The before-mentioned silly futuristic technologies and the libertarian nation-building in the Rocky Mountains were too much. On the other hand, I was always of a mind that people needed to take responsibility for their own outcomes, but it was difficult to resonate with even that message in such a dumb novel. I do differ with Rand on a personal level, in that I don't take such extreme positions; being highly libertarian and anti-government. I think governments can do a lot of good, but at the moment it is difficult for me to align with the professed philosophies of the Democratic or the Republican leaders.

 

[Old Onkyo]

All that being said, your question is, “How does morality change?”

You really want to debate the politics of a wall on the southern border. While the banter is interesting, the totality of morality cannot be defined by a political decision.

But you know that