How Does Morality Change?

[herbu]

I understand how our views of morality change over a period of time, (usually a very long period of time). But even then, it is a process and not shared by everyone. An example might be stoning someone to death. It used to be an accepted practice. Now most of civilization considers it immoral, (though some do still subscribe to the practice).

My modern example, and a thing I don't understand, is our border wall. In the recent past, all the Democrat leadership supported a border wall.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10161261358075858

This is just one guy, but you can easily find similar examples for other Democrat leaders.
Now they say it is immoral, and are supported by the majority of their party.

How can half our population change their morals so suddenly and completely? Are morals really something that can change that quickly and easily?

 

[Hetfield]

I don't think Democrats ever supported a border wall. You can't build a 2600 mile wall on the southern border. The terrain and water, streams, hills and everything else.
I'll tell you what I remember. I remember Republicans that held up money for NJ when a natural disaster hit because it would add to the debt. Now they are holding up the budget, and shutting down the government to add to the debt. Now isn't that strange and a switch?

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[shadyJ]

How can half our population change their morals so suddenly and completely? Are morals really something that can change that quickly and easily?

I know, right?
"At a 1980 GOP presidential debate in Houston, Texas, Reagan spoke of Mexico as "our neighbor to the south." He added, "We should have a better understanding and better relationship than we've ever had." And as he continued, Reagan sounded a lot like he was weighing in on today's immigration debate.

"Rather than talking about putting up a fence," the future president said. "Why don't we work out some recognition of our mutual problems?" It's the kind of line you might hear from just about any Democratic senator in 2018.

On the stage debating him that day was another 1980 GOP presidential hopeful and future president, George H.W. Bush. He was asked by an audience member if children in the country illegally should be allowed to attend U.S. public schools.

Bush didn't hesitate, saying he doesn't want to see 6- or 8-year-olds being uneducated or "made to feel that they're living outside the law."

 

[highfigh]

I understand how our views of morality change over a period of time, (usually a very long period of time). But even then, it is a process and not shared by everyone. An example might be stoning someone to death. It used to be an accepted practice. Now most of civilization considers it immoral, (though some do still subscribe to the practice).

My modern example, and a thing I don't understand, is our border wall. In the recent past, all the Democrat leadership supported a border wall.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10161261358075858

This is just one guy, but you can easily find similar examples for other Democrat leaders.
Now they say it is immoral, and are supported by the majority of their party.

How can half our population change their morals so suddenly and completely? Are morals really something that can change that quickly and easily?

Being a politician, comments from him (and others) will change with the wind of perceived public opinion. I think they count on people having a short memory and attention span which, coupled with a barrage of sensational media outbursts, overloads peoples' minds. Coupled with social media, which I think is absolutely complicit in ALL of the rancor, and we have a free for all. Lies are spread, believed and acted upon and it's not from only one side.

I also think that the education system in the US has fallen far from where it was. Adults can't even count change at a fast food restaurant and with their poor social skills, I'm not sure how they expect to find a better paying job unless better pay is mandated.

It's hard to make some comments without being accused of getting into party politics and I'm not endorsing him, but Mittens Romney (such a cute name) said that 47% of Americans pay no taxes. PolitiFact says it's true but that number needs to be examined before making further comments on it. Some are retirees, some CAN'T work but many of the rest are poor and their taxable income is zero, or close enough that they have no tax liability.

The problem for them, IMO is in how they have been raised, how they were educated and how their cities deal with poverty. I'm in the Milwaukee area and have lived here my whole life- the way poverty has been dealt with during my lifetime has been to keep it in one area. This has led to Milwaukee being called 'The Most Segregated City In America" for a long time. Generational high crime, low education, low income, poor treatment by their city- when someone comes along and says they want to help, they aren't trusted even though the offer may be legitimate.

The part starting with "...when someone comes along" is the tail end of a comment made by a former neighbor on election night, 2008. We were walking out of a grocery store and, because of the comments made by many others when we were inside, he started by saying "I have a big problem with Black people. They fall all over themselves trying to screw each other, but when someone comes along and says they want to help, they aren't trusted even though the offer may be legitimate.". George, my former neighbor, is Black.

I think politicians should be subject to term limits, in all positions. Schumer is one of many in his party who have overstayed their political visas and have used misdirection to make an attempt to divert attention to their previous comments that are polar opposite of what they're saying now and I think anyone with a printer should go to his public appearances, so they can hold their comments up and make them known to those who didn't hear, or don't remember. The GOP has several members who need to be shown the door, too.

The problem with paying attention to what politicians say is that many people who can vote have more important things to deal with on a daily basis, like putting food on the table, making sure they have a place to live and trying to be safe.

 

[2channel lover]

Being a politician, comments from him (and others) will change with the wind of perceived public opinion.

You wrote a great post...this one sentence summed it up nicely.

 

[highfigh]

I don't think Democrats ever supported a border wall. You can't build a 2600 mile wall on the southern border. The terrain and water, streams, hills and everything else.
I'll tell you what I remember. I remember Republicans that held up money for NJ when a natural disaster hit because it would add to the debt. Now they are holding up the budget, and shutting down the government to add to the debt. Now isn't that strange and a switch?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Pelosi refuses to negotiate, Trump wants to. Now, who's holding the Federal Government hostage?

W was blamed for the way FEMA handled Katrina, but in the cold light of day, it was the local and state government that caused the problems. Ray Nagin was found guilty of several felonies related to dealing with contractors around the time of Katrina (some occurred before) . When the prisons began to flood, they let the convicts go free. Many people were given plane and bus tickets, then told to leave.

Obama, the Clintons, Schumer, Pelosi and many others are contradicting their past statements. It's not strange, it's politics.

I'm sure I'll be told that it's a BS link because of the source, but here's a link to an article about the Democrat's flip flop on the border- I'm not taking it as absolute truth because it comes from one side and there's bound to be an opposing view, but somewhere between them, lies the truth.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/democrats-flip-flop-on-border-security-has-everything-to-do-with-2020-and-nothing-to-do-with-immigration

 

[highfigh]

You wrote a great post...this one sentence summed it up nicely.

Every time an election drew near, my dad would ask "Is this the best we have?". I thought he was just being negative, but it's clear that he was just asking a question that can only be answered with "NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

He passed in March, 2001- I can't imagine his reaction to 911 or what has happened since.

 

[highfigh]

I know, right?
"At a 1980 GOP presidential debate in Houston, Texas, Reagan spoke of Mexico as "our neighbor to the south." He added, "We should have a better understanding and better relationship than we've ever had." And as he continued, Reagan sounded a lot like he was weighing in on today's immigration debate.

"Rather than talking about putting up a fence," the future president said. "Why don't we work out some recognition of our mutual problems?" It's the kind of line you might hear from just about any Democratic senator in 2018.

On the stage debating him that day was another 1980 GOP presidential hopeful and future president, George H.W. Bush. He was asked by an audience member if children in the country illegally should be allowed to attend U.S. public schools.

Bush didn't hesitate, saying he doesn't want to see 6- or 8-year-olds being uneducated or "made to feel that they're living outside the law."

It's not the kids who made the decision to come here but, as usual, they have to suffer the consequences.

 

[lovinthehd]

I understand how our views of morality change over a period of time, (usually a very long period of time). But even then, it is a process and not shared by everyone. An example might be stoning someone to death. It used to be an accepted practice. Now most of civilization considers it immoral, (though some do still subscribe to the practice).

My modern example, and a thing I don't understand, is our border wall. In the recent past, all the Democrat leadership supported a border wall.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10161261358075858

This is just one guy, but you can easily find similar examples for other Democrat leaders.
Now they say it is immoral, and are supported by the majority of their party.

How can half our population change their morals so suddenly and completely? Are morals really something that can change that quickly and easily?

Your conclusion is kinda out there....as usual.

 

[Hetfield]

Pelosi refuses to negotiate, Trump wants to. Now, who's holding the Federal Government hostage?

W was blamed for the way FEMA handled Katrina, but in the cold light of day, it was the local and state government that caused the problems. Ray Nagin was found guilty of several felonies related to dealing with contractors around the time of Katrina (some occurred before) . When the prisons began to flood, they let the convicts go free. Many people were given plane and bus tickets, then told to leave.

Obama, the Clintons, Schumer, Pelosi and many others are contradicting their past statements. It's not strange, it's politics.

I'm sure I'll be told that it's a BS link because of the source, but here's a link to an article about the Democrat's flip flop on the border- I'm not taking it as absolute truth because it comes from one side and there's bound to be an opposing view, but somewhere between them, lies the truth.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/democrats-flip-flop-on-border-security-has-everything-to-do-with-2020-and-nothing-to-do-with-immigration

Wrong, he agreed to sign a bill and then Ann Coulter had a fit and backed off. This is his shutdown period.
This clown had 2 years where his party was in control of the house, the Senate and presidency and he didn't get the God dam money what they the hell in his orange brain makes him think he is going to get money when he lost control of the house? This is insanity.
Poll:60% blame Trump squarely. He said I will shut the government down and it'll be on me and I won't blame anyone else but the everything else in his life he went back on that an blamed everyone else.

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[John Parks]

Your conclusion is kinda out there....as usual.

I do not know if I picked up on a "conclusion" there - can you point it out to me? His premise, on the other hand...

 

[shadyJ]

It's not the kids who made the decision to come here but, as usual, they have to suffer the consequences.

Those consequences wouldn't have to be so tragic if republicans weren't so vicious.

 

[lovinthehd]

I do not know if I picked up on a "conclusion" there - can you point it out to me? His premise, on the other hand...

The conclusion about morality from the news clips....just a non sequitur in my mind.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I think the wall should be funded for the following reasons:

1. We need to stop making sacrificial pawns of Federal workers and government services.
2. Building the wall will take many years, and will almost certainly start near populated areas where there are already walls, fences, or other barriers, and the new construction will be mere improvements. There will be lots of time in the future to reverse the decision before the really annoying construction starts.
3. Much of the land needed to complete the wall is in private hands, so the Feds will have to go through the eminent domain process. This is long and drawn out under the best of circumstances, and it will be complicated by the contentious nature of the project.
4. Like all big, complex, under-studied Federal projects, the wall will cost far more than anticipated, and it is highly unlikely the wall will ever be completed.
5. The cost of the shutdown to the economy is getting too high to justify the argument.

 

[John Parks]

The conclusion about morality from the news clips....just a non sequitur in my mind.

Fair enough!

 

[highfigh]

Those consequences wouldn't have to be so tragic if republicans weren't so vicious.

As opposed to the Democrats keeping people dependent on government? That's far more vicious, IMO.

I used to wonder why anyone would want to run a government by keeping people poor, uneducated and unhealthy until I saw politicians whose main goal was to stay in office and wield their power for as long as they could. Neither side is innocent in this and it's long past time to stop pointing fingers at one side or the other.

I hate the American election process. It takes too long, costs too much and there's too much BS flying around.

 

[highfigh]

Wrong, he agreed to sign a bill and then Ann Coulter had a fit and backed off. This is his shutdown period.
This clown had 2 years where his party was in control of the house, the Senate and presidency and he didn't get the God dam money what they the hell in his orange brain makes him think he is going to get money when he lost control of the house? This is insanity.
Poll:60% blame Trump squarely. He said I will shut the government down and it'll be on me and I won't blame anyone else but the everything else in his life he went back on that an blamed everyone else.

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The "clown" in the White House always has time when their party is in control but they never seem to get the things done that they promise. I don't remember seeing/hearing him say that.

It is insane but it fits well in Washington DC. I think it's time for retooling.

 

[rekh127]

Most political opinions are just repeating propaganda, we're all slaves to the system man

 

[KEW]

I think the wall should be funded for the following reasons:

1. We need to stop making sacrificial pawns of Federal workers and government services.
2. Building the wall will take many years, and will almost certainly start near populated areas where there are already walls, fences, or other barriers, and the new construction will be mere improvements. There will be lots of time in the future to reverse the decision before the really annoying construction starts.
3. Much of the land needed to complete the wall is in private hands, so the Feds will have to go through the eminent domain process. This is long and drawn out under the best of circumstances, and it will be complicated by the contentious nature of the project.
4. Like all big, complex, under-studied Federal projects, the wall will cost far more than anticipated, and it is highly unlikely the wall will ever be completed.
5. The cost of the shutdown to the economy is getting too high to justify the argument.

The quick answer is (from the political gamification angle) why should the Dem's yield to Trump when he is the one who is wearing the shutdown?
Close to half of the population agree to a physical border as reasonable, but far fewer believe the shut-down is justified. As long as the Dem's put forth a proposal to fund government without tying it to the wall, Trump looks to blame.

However, this guy does a lot to put things in perspective. He stays in generalities, but I believe what he is really getting at is how Trump coached "the wall" in terms of keeping out the rapists and murderers (despite the factual information that immigrants do not commit as many violent crimes as citizens) which ties a racist ideology to the wall.

@herbu , I believe that is the reason why even fencing now has a bad taste for the Dems - with Trump, it is being done in the name of keeping these "subhuman" immigrants out! The problem is many people here (especially younger people) know plenty of fine people who immigrated from the south and really despise how Trump is depicting them as a categorical threat to our security.

 

[shadyJ]

The quick answer is (from the political gamification angle) why should the Dem's yield to Trump when he is the one who is wearing the shutdown?
Close to half of the population agree to a physical border as reasonable, but far fewer believe the shut-down is justified. As long as the Dem's put forth a proposal to fund government without tying it to the wall, Trump looks to blame.

However, this guy does a lot to put things in perspective. He stays in generalities, but I believe what he is really getting at is how Trump coached "the wall" in terms of keeping out the rapists and murderers (despite the factual information that immigrants do not commit as many violent crimes as citizens) which ties a racist ideology to the wall.

@herbu , I believe that is the reason why even fencing now has a bad taste for the Dems - with Trump, it is being done in the name of keeping these "subhuman" immigrants out! The problem is many people here (especially younger people) know plenty of fine people who immigrated from the south and really despise how Trump is depicting them as a categorical threat to our security.

+1 to this. One thing that might have changed the minds of those Democrats on the idea of a wall is that illegal immigration has been dropping over time, and the vehicle that they use to get in country is not primarily by walking over the Mexican border. Despite the lessening illegal traffic through the Mexican border, Trump makes it out to be some kind of emergency (that somehow wasn't an emergency until Democrats gained control of the house). The truth is that the wall is purely a symbol, it's a monument to racism. It's a token to all of Trump's base which announces that non-whites are not welcome in the USA. It's like the opposite of the statue of liberty. Democrats must do all they can to ensure that it never gets built. It's nothing more than an expression of a hideous ideology.

I'm all for stronger control of border traffic too, but real, effective solutions, not multi-billion dollar, ineffectual fascist gestures. And most of the money used for the wall construction will simply be embezzled away by crooked contractors anyway; that is the Trump way. The environmental damage alone that such a wall could cause is sufficient argument against it, even disregarding the fact that it is merely a shrine for white supremacists.