Hosting infamous amp test

[mulester7]

Has anyone else ever told you that your avatar is extremely annoying?

.....well, Adrian, I trust you'll get over it in time, but who cares?....why this attack attitude?.....

 

[AdrianMills]

.....well, Adrian, I trust you'll get over it in time, but who cares?....why this attack attitude?.....

Attack? It wasn't intended as an attack. It's just that your avatar makes me feel stressed.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I did a little searching and I found it... it was actually here that the post was made and not on AVS - no wonder I lost track of it when I was looking in the wrong place!

It's a couple of years old so maybe you haven't seen it... The incredible Dr Bob...

A pity he made so few posts.

Boy, that goes back a while here. Thanks for the effort in locating and posting.
Yes, too bad he had a short history here, or few posts.

 

[pearsall001]

Now if only Dr. Bob could count that would make the story more believable. They gathered up 5 audio buddies but all 12 of them couldn't hear the difference??? None the less a good read & I find no reason not to put faith in his findings. I personally have played around w/ cables & I find every switch (not expensive) to be a lateral move sound wise. In fact I just finished a pair of speaker cables out of 12ga. magnet wire w/ the red lacquer coating. Superb sounding & can't beat the cost. I think the wire's claim to fame is it's lack of any insulation. From what I can gather from my reading, insulation (teflon, etc.) on other cables actually inhibit the signal path some how. Air is the best insulation, a vacuum is next & then comes teflon & the likes. The magnet wire is as close to air without the wire having any insulation, hence there is nothing to inhibit the signal path. I take it the coat hanger wire was pretty much the same as magnet wire. You can spend a whole lot more on cables but the sound is pretty much the same IMO.

 

[goodman]

Some of you have probably read the old Stereo Review amplifier test from the 80's that concluded all amplifiers more or less sound the same. It's a cool test and the article is well written.

It used to be hosted at http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf but the site has now been down for a week or so.

I just found the same article at http://webpages.charter.net/fryguy/Amp_Sound.pdf but I'm not sure how reliable this link is.

It would be a shame not to have that PDF easily available for reference when arguing with the "faithful" so would it be possible to host it here on Audioholics do you think or possibly some other reliable site – I have places that I could put it but they aren't exactly AV related...

And I'Cm not sure if there are copyright issues with this...

Bruce Coppolla is our very own Rip Van Woofer, at one time an Audioholics moderator and one of our most intelligent and prolific posters. Are you still around, Rip?

 

[mulester7]

Attack? It wasn't intended as an attack. It's just that your avatar makes me feel stressed.

.....ok, I don't want to make you feel stressed....I said I didn't care, but I do....what about it make you feel stressed?....go to my whatever page it is where you can click on all posts by a poster, and look at my avatar larger....the guy looks like an idiot to me....larger, he's actually smiling and got hair....you don't like that big nose he's got?....look at the big one, and you might lose the stress while viewing the small one....do I have to get rid of it for you to stay here and contribute?.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Mulester: go to my whatever page it is where you can click on all posts by a poster, and look at my avatar larger....the guy looks like an idiot to me....larger, he's actually smiling and got hair....you don't like that big nose he's got?....look at the big one, and you might lose the stress while viewing the small one....do I have to get rid of it for you to stay here and contribute?....

Don't get rid of it, for gaudsakes. They've banned moving avatars, and you're one of the last to survive! Here's a blowup of this cool avatar. And no, I've not seen it with hair. I honestly don't think he's smiling. That's just his nose.

 

[The Dukester]

Don't get rid of it, for gaudsakes. They've banned moving avatars, and you're one of the last to survive! Here's a blowup of this cool avatar. And no, I've not seen it with hair.

Agreed! I think it's cool.

 

[mulester7]

.....well, I appreciate them cards and letters....Buck and Duke, you're two of the best here....

 

[AdrianMills]

.....ok, I don't want to make you feel stressed....I said I didn't care, but I do....what about it make you feel stressed?....

I always find moving avatars stressful and annoying when I'm trying to read.

Moving ads have the same effect - they are even more annoying actually. At least the ads here are fairly unobtrusive; some sites have horrendous advertising banners and I just gave up visiting them.

Never mind, you keep your avatar - I've just switched them off so I can't see the annoying things.

 

[AdrianMills]

Now if only Dr. Bob could count that would make the story more believable. They gathered up 5 audio buddies but all 12 of them couldn't hear the difference???

Yes, I noticed - probably a typo or maybe a senior moment perhaps? I get them all of the time too you know.

None the less a good read & I find no reason not to put faith in his findings. I personally have played around w/ cables & I find every switch (not expensive) to be a lateral move sound wise. In fact I just finished a pair of speaker cables out of 12ga. magnet wire w/ the red lacquer coating. Superb sounding & can't beat the cost. I think the wire's claim to fame is it's lack of any insulation. From what I can gather from my reading, insulation (teflon, etc.) on other cables actually inhibit the signal path some how. Air is the best insulation, a vacuum is next & then comes teflon & the likes. The magnet wire is as close to air without the wire having any insulation, hence there is nothing to inhibit the signal path. I take it the coat hanger wire was pretty much the same as magnet wire. You can spend a whole lot more on cables but the sound is pretty much the same IMO.

Uh, so what are you saying exactly? That cables of a reasonable gauge and quality can sound different? Or in this case, any wire that's thick.

Here's what Rod Elliott says about your Teflon insulator in the article The Truth About Interconnects and Cables (cool, he seems to like the quote in my sig too).

"So far, there has not been one shred of evidence that indicates that Teflon TM (wonderful stuff that may well be) is audibly superior to PVC in a properly controlled double-blind (or ABX) test.

Differences are measurable (with the right equipment) but are not relevant to the audio range unless the "facts" or cable topology are manipulated to influence the test."

 

[pearsall001]

I pretty much agree with his findings on IC's & speaker cables. By the way is this the same Rod Elliott that has these thoughts on amp sounds & how they do differ?

The Components of Sound

When people talk about the sound of an amplifier, there are many different terms used. For a typical (high quality) amplifier, the sound may be described as "smeared", or having "air" or "authoritative" bass. These terms - although describing a listener's experience - have no direct meaning in electrical terms.

Electrically, we can discuss distortion, phase shift, current capability, slew rate and a myriad of other known phenomena. I don't have any real idea as to how we can directly link these to the common terms used by reviewers and listeners.

Some writers have claimed that all amplifiers actually sound the same, and to some extent (comparing apples with apples) this is "proven" in double-blind listening tests. I am a great believer in this technique, but there are some differences that cannot be readily explained. An amp that is deemed "identical" to another in a test situation, may sound completely different in a normal listening environment. It is these differences that are the hardest to deal with, since we do not always measure some of the things that can have a big influence on the sound.

For example; It is rare that testing is done on an amplifier's clipping performance - how the amp recovers from a brief transient overload. I have stated elsewhere that a hi-fi amplifier should never clip in normal usage - nice try, but it IS going to happen, and often is more common than we might think. Use a good clipping indicator on the amp, and this can be eliminated, but at what cost? It might be necessary to reduce the volume (and SPL) to a level that is much lower than you are used to, to eliminate a problem that you were unaware existed.

Different amplifiers react in different ways to these momentary overloads, where their overall performance is otherwise almost identical. I have tested IC power amps, and was dismayed by the overload recovery waveform. My faithful old 60W design measures about the same as the IC in some areas, a little better in some, a little worse in others (as one would expect).

Were these two amps compared in a double blind test (avoiding clipping), it is probable that no-one would be able to tell the difference. Advance the level so that transients started clipping, and a fence post would be able to hear the difference between them. What terms would describe the sound? I have no idea. The sound might be "smeared" due to the loss of detail during the recovery time of the IC amp. Imaging might suffer as well, since much of the signal that provides directional cues would be lost for periods of time.

As you can see this on going argument is not so cut & dry as you and others might want us to believe. Post back when you find a real world ABX amp listening test that includes clipping levels as Rod suggests for a fair comparison. Make sure a couple of fence posts are included as listeners.



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[AdrianMills]

I pretty much agree with his findings on IC's & speaker cables. By the way is this the same Rod Elliott that has these thoughts on amp sounds & how they do differ?

I've no idea if it's the same guy but I'm almost speechless that anyone would suggest that amps should be tested that way - if an amp is regularly clipping under normal use then it's about time to buy a bigger amp or turn down the volume. The whole premise is that an amp is used as it was designed to be, within is normal unclipped range - if people are using it outside of that then it's no wonder they hear "differences".

 

[mtrycrafts]

Now if only Dr. Bob could count that would make the story more believable. They gathered up 5 audio buddies but all 12 of them couldn't hear the difference??? None the less a good read & I find no reason not to put faith in his findings. I personally have played around w/ cables & I find every switch (not expensive) to be a lateral move sound wise. In fact I just finished a pair of speaker cables out of 12ga. magnet wire w/ the red lacquer coating. Superb sounding & can't beat the cost. I think the wire's claim to fame is it's lack of any insulation. From what I can gather from my reading, insulation (teflon, etc.) on other cables actually inhibit the signal path some how. Air is the best insulation, a vacuum is next & then comes teflon & the likes. The magnet wire is as close to air without the wire having any insulation, hence there is nothing to inhibit the signal path. I take it the coat hanger wire was pretty much the same as magnet wire. You can spend a whole lot more on cables but the sound is pretty much the same IMO.

Insulation doesn't inhibit signal path. It has something to do with propagation velocity. So what if it is .5 light speed or .8?