Hosting infamous amp test

[mulester7]

That's the answer. Belief, and not knowing.

.....most of your family wears Army boots......

 

[The Dukester]

That's the answer. Belief, and not knowing.

You are welcome to come to my house (seriously) and set up a DBT with my two power amps and see if I can tell the difference. If'n I was a gamblin' man (which I am not...there goes that Christian thing again) I would wager both pieces of equipment that I could, unless you played them at a barely audible level. You could even bring one of yourin along for the fun of it.

 

[mulester7]

.....Guys, in case it got by you, there was a post at this site a couple of days ago saying the Behringer A500 amp, is it A?, available for about $180, sounded bad to him....I think he was in Egypt or somewhere, anyhow, he said the sound quality was not good in the mid's-up, I believe he said....does anyone own one, and care to report on whether or not the guy was full of shifting sand?.....Behringer A500 amplifier, strappable....

.....edit....I think the guy was from India, seriously.....

 

[AdrianMills]

You are welcome to come to my house (seriously) and set up a DBT with my two power amps and see if I can tell the difference. If'n I was a gamblin' man (which I am not...there goes that Christian thing again) I would wager both pieces of equipment that I could, unless you played them at a barely audible level. You could even bring one of yourin along for the fun of it.

Funny, but that's exactly what Mr. Zipser said and when everything was level matched, he, his wife and a friend didn't have a clue. And what happened after? Excuses. And that always seems to be the result of the tests with rare exceptions; you believers want to believe no matter what evidence is presented so you'll ignore it or make excuses or just say that you are different.

As for me, I've run out of steam repeating the same thing over and over here and in several other forums. So you guys have fun listening to all your different sounding amps.

Oh, one anecdote for you before I leave this subject; a past colleague of mine used to report that he was able to hear "phase changes" when he twisted the power cord feeding an amplifier. Some of you audiophiles would nod sagely at this while others would think this is too extreme even for you.
Well, it turns out he was diagnosed with schizophrenia a couple of years ago and he’s now on medication and doing fine. Funny thing, he can no longer hear "phase changes". That is a true story.

 

[mtrycrafts]

more questions

I'll go back to my Arcam amps. After I sold that gear, I found out much later, that the guys over at Arcam purposely voiced the Alpha range of amps to "mellow" the sound of CDs.

Which Cds do they voice the amps to? Which system was that reproduced on. speakers that is? Yes, not all CDs have the same mastering problems of excess compression, etc. No, the CD format itself has no sonic characteristics to take into consideration, hence, Arcam has an impossible task. They also need to take into account the room that those speakers are in that they are voicing to. WOW, compounded impossibility.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You are welcome to come to my house (seriously) and set up a DBT with my two power amps and see if I can tell the difference. If'n I was a gamblin' man (which I am not...there goes that Christian thing again) I would wager both pieces of equipment that I could, unless you played them at a barely audible level. You could even bring one of yourin along for the fun of it.

If I was in your neighborhood, we'd do it for the truth of it No, DBT is not played at barely audible levels, just withing the design limits of the components
Maybe Tom Nousaine is in your neighborhood? Michigan area? But, he may be tired of all the null results

My boombox would not stand a chance against your good stuff.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.

As for me, I've run out of steam repeating the same thing over and over here and in several other forums. .

You just got here Have some A-Z vitamins to rejuvenate you. Need a few more like you. Hope you are just taking a break from the thread, not the web site. Stick around.

 

[Tomorrow]

You just got here Have some A-Z vitamins to rejuvenate you. Need a few more like you. Hope you are just taking a break from the thread, not the web site. Stick around.

WOW, mtry....FIVE thousand posts and you haven't broken stride. I gotta get some of those vities......

 

[bpape]

I guess my point was that some amps won't drive some speakers to ANY level much less within their specs. If an amp won't drive a 2 ohm load and you have 2 ohm speakers, it's a problem.

So what we're saying here is that if I have 2 amps - both rated at 100WPC into 8 ohms and 200WPC into 4 ohms. But 1 of them will drive a 2 ohm highly capacitive load just fine to pretty much full power, but the other can only muster MAYBE 5W before it goes into protection mode, then I have to handicap the more stable amp with the better power supply to keep it below the point where the other one shuts down and craps out? Sorry - not buying it.

If that's the story, then we might as well all go buy a cheesy HTIB and just keep the volume turned down since that will sound the same

And, BTW, it's Futterman, not Flutterman. The guy who designed the amps was named Julius Futterman. I've heard them many times and still lust for a pair.

And yes - I'll guarantee you that an OTL-1 Futterman and pretty much any other amp you put against it (driven within their specs) will sound different. Just understand that the Futterman is another odd bird. It is an OTL design which means that power goes DOWN as impedance falls. They're at their best with a high impedance speaker like a Rogers, etc. The Air-Tight amps are the same way.

Mating an amp and speakers is not just throwing 2 things together. You need to look at the requirements of the speakers and then select an amp that will give them what they need. Not all speakers place the same or even close to the same demands on an amplifier.

 

[The Dukester]

If I was in your neighborhood, we'd do it for the truth of it No, DBT is not played at barely audible levels, just withing the design limits of the components
Maybe Tom Nousaine is in your neighborhood? Michigan area? But, he may be tired of all the null results

My boombox would not stand a chance against your good stuff.

Nah, I live in SC. The opposite side of the state from Clint. Probably a good thing or the neighbors would think I was part of the family. I would be over there all the time trying to get the skinny on all the new stuff

Adrian, I have stones enough to admit it if I was proved wrong. When I bought the new amp, I really only expected it to have a lot more power and headroom, not be better sounding. I was amazed at the sound difference at approx the same db. No, I didn't measure it, but I have had the Mac rcvr for a number of years and am intimately familiar with it.

 

[mulester7]

As for me, I've run out of steam repeating the same thing over and over here and in several other forums. So you guys have fun listening to all your different sounding amps.

.....Adrian, I see a BIG PIE hitting you right in the face....let's hear YOUR experience with different amps....Mtry gets all distant whenever he is asked to talk about his equipment, how ridiculous, how revealing, but you probably won't....pass that mic over to Adrian, Duke......

 

[AdrianMills]

You just got here Have some A-Z vitamins to rejuvenate you. Need a few more like you. Hope you are just taking a break from the thread, not the web site. Stick around.

I've been involved in many similar threads on 3 other forums (one of which I got banned from - not entirely because of objectivistic posts but those certainly paved the way) and I'm a little weary of the circular arguments.

But I'm not going anywhere - this place is one of the few places on the net where one can find factual information on AV topics.

 

[AdrianMills]

I was amazed at the sound difference at approx the same db. No, I didn't measure it, but I have had the Mac rcvr for a number of years and am intimately familiar with it.

~sigh~ No, seriously?

Hands up anyone else that can't read or just doesn't get it.

Okay, for the final time... A 0.1 dB difference in volume cannot be heard as a volume difference but it may be perceived as a difference in sound and that includes being brighter, clearer, tighter, and any other adjective you can think of.

 

[mulester7]

.....Guys, on this discussion of "do amps sound different and why", let's go to the top.....

.....Audioholic President Gene, how's them Eiffel Tower's doin'?....Great, I hope....you're getting the signals from the pre-pro'ing of that Flagship Denon with 10 channels of amplification, and that's fine, I'm sure it sounds wonderful....them speakers I believe msrp lists for $50,000.........I stare at the screen after typing that, but what I'd like to know is, if you've heard any differences between, two amp-channels of that Flagship Denon, compared to the two channel amp which comes with the speakers as a set, or at least I believe the amp is advised to go with the Eiffel Tower speakers.....and surely, you have made that comparison of seperate to Denon amp channels, no?....what was it that Eiffel Tower amp list for?....wasn't it $30,000.....Gene, I hope you got it all for $1700 to your door....but, how did the seperate amp stand up against two amp-channels of the Denon?....thanks for time spent reviewing this question, Gene, I know you're busy....I'm glad the door opened for you to begin an online audio site which persues the truth.....

 

[AdrianMills]

.....Adrian, I see a BIG PIE hitting you right in the face....let's hear YOUR experience with different amps....Mtry gets all distant whenever he is asked to talk about his equipment, how ridiculous, how revealing, but you probably won't....pass that mic over to Adrian, Duke......

I can't say I've heard much difference that cannot be put down to different volumes, different speakers and different room acoustics. I don't walk around with an SPL meter in my pocket to level match them though... but then again, even if I did it wouldn't help much unless I was A/B testing as my aural memory is too short. Basically, I don’t really pay attention to amps – either they have enough power or they don’t.

My current system is a "crappy" $1000 Philips HTIB that has a D-class amp, wireless rears, and niobium ribbon tweeters (just had to throw that in there ) - I bought it when I split from my ex and I moved out into a small apartment. It's ok for HT in a small room.

I moved into my new house 3 months ago and I've ordered the first installment in my new system - a pair of B&W 804S, a HTM7 center, a Denon 4306 and a Denon 3910. I bought a pair of JMLab rears off of a friend but I may decide to go for 805S in the rear and I’m also thinking of going to a HTM3 in the front if the HTM7 doesn’t work out but I hope it does as the HTM3 is bloody large. I think the 4306 should be ok as an amp but if not I'll buy an addition amp, either a used one or a new NAD - their stereo C272 or maybe the multi-channel M25 (lots of bang for the buck). I do like the look of the Emotiva though.

Oh yeah, I have a SVS PB12plus sitting in the corner too.

 

[mulester7]

The Sweet Spot....term said here by Shokhead

I've been involved in many similar threads on 3 other forums (one of which I got banned from - not entirely because of objectivistic posts but those certainly paved the way) and I'm a little weary of the circular arguments.

But I'm not going anywhere - this place is one of the few places on the net where one can find factual information on AV topics.

....then stay here, but recognize how worthless blind tests are....every amp has a sweet spot in combination with the speakers....for one, it might happen at 96 db's....for another, maybe as low as 75....or 60....it's the spot of volume needed, to achieve the best "live presence" that the amp and speakers are capable of, and you won't lose that sweet spot taking it louder, but why ruin your hearing?....you're getting it as good as it can be at 75 or 60 db's....forget the level-matching, forget the blindfolds, forget ALL the tricks guys use to get published....just find the sweet spot of live presence....listen to it in shifts if sorta' loud....sorta' loud for a sweet spot really ain't good.....seek the presence that let's you stay at moderate, and the wattage, if matched to the pre-amp especially, will be there to keep the chamber presence constant......you who have 2 channel set-ups with only mains....you owe it to yourselves to get rears and another "like" amp, and have 4-corner....if you're planning such a setup, let bookshelves be in the rear to shoot resolved mids at floor-standers or towers in the front, which are usually best resolved in the highs....the front soundstage speakers can come to life with such arrangementtttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttTUUHHH..... ..... .....WHEW, sorry, Guys, pant, pant, I just stuck my toe against a naked spot on the lamp cord....WHEW....gimme' a minute.....

.....ok, when comparing components that push through the speakers, listen for the presence to bloom into a sweet spot, and work until that happens at moderate-plus levels at least....damp your speakers and room right, and moderate will be more within sight....Adrian, you're sharp....but I assure you, amps from the pre-outs give better sweet spots, with presence improving also........in closing, you won't hear a live performance after the original, so don't expect that from a CD or DVD....after the original event, it can only be a "reinactment", woe to us....McIntosh gives the most "live" sounding reinactment you can get....

.....edit....and, I better say the best reinactment I've found, which I found in '86, twenty years ago, and I've listened to a BUNCH of home systems since, and waded through a few bushes by myself......

 

[mulester7]

I can't say I've heard much difference that cannot be put down to different volumes, different speakers and different room acoustics. I don't walk around with an SPL meter in my pocket to level match them though... but then again, even if I did it wouldn't help much unless I was A/B testing as my aural memory is too short. Basically, I don’t really pay attention to amps – either they have enough power or they don’t.

My current system is a "crappy" $1000 Philips HTIB that has a D-class amp, wireless rears, and niobium ribbon tweeters (just had to throw that in there ) - I bought it when I split from my ex and I moved out into a small apartment. It's ok for HT in a small room.

I moved into my new house 3 months ago and I've ordered the first installment in my new system - a pair of B&W 804S, a HTM7 center, a Denon 4306 and a Denon 3910. I bought a pair of JMLab rears off of a friend but I may decide to go for 805S in the rear and I’m also thinking of going to a HTM3 in the front if the HTM7 doesn’t work out but I hope it does as the HTM3 is bloody large. I think the 4306 should be ok as an amp but if not I'll buy an addition amp, either a used one or a new NAD - their stereo C272 or maybe the multi-channel M25 (lots of bang for the buck). I do like the look of the Emotiva though.

Oh yeah, I have a SVS PB12plus sitting in the corner too.

.....Man, now you make me feel like a heel....can empathize with the split unto being an ex....I'm sure the system you had through any rough times brought you comfort, Adrian....BRAVO, on the financial recovery, new home, or maybe new to you but great, and that system you are working at....I take back the pie and do a self-splat.....

 

[AdrianMills]

.....Man, now you make me feel like a heel....can empathize with the split unto being an ex....I'm sure the system you had through any rough times brought you comfort, Adrian....BRAVO, on the financial recovery, new home, or maybe new to you but great, and that system you are working at....I take back the pie and do a self-splat.....

Why should you feel like a heel? Because I split with my wife? Don't worry about that, it was for the best and we're still good friends.

My new system will be cool, yes. Funny thing - two weeks after I ordered my new speakers (I've been waiting 3 weeks for them to be delivered now!) a pair of N802 came on the used market here for just $250 more than I paid for the 804S. Bit of a bugger that - I probably would have gone for them instead (who could resist that marlan head?).

As for anyone else's kit - some people just don't have the finances to splurge on kit this expensive, some have other priorities, then there are those whose tastes tend towards the sound that cheaper kit makes (you know, I really like the White Stripes but they sound awful on any "high end" speakers I've heard but sound great in my car).

 

[mulester7]

some people just don't have the finances to splurge on kit this expensive, some have other priorities, then there are those whose tastes tend towards the sound that cheaper kit makes (you know, I really like the White Stripes but they sound awful on any "high end" speakers I've heard but sound great in my car).

.....agreed, Adrian, you can't beat what you get for a sound chamber in a car, hands-down....times aren't getting any better on the actual spending-value of the American dollar....some have younger families, and some just want decent music as inexpensively as they can get it....this will always be predominately a receiver site, and what a wonderful job they do for those they serve....what's wrong with a minority seperates group reading and talking here at the same time in different threads?.....

 

[AdrianMills]

.....this will always be predominately a receiver site, and what a wonderful job they do for those they serve....what's wrong with a minority seperates group reading and talking here at the same time in different threads?.....

I get the feeling that in your mind you associate objectivists with "cheap n' nasty" receivers and subjectivists with "higher quality" separates, now why is that?

I do find it bizarre that there are so many subjectivists here, I mean, it's like fundamentalist Christians chatting happily on a board dedicated to atheists. The religion analogy can be stretched even further than that too; it really is quite amazing how similar the arguments and mindsets are.