Hosting infamous amp test

[wire]

The whole set up was "audiophile" grade from end to end with the amps being the only things changing. Even the audiophile believers were satisfied with the set up... at least they were until they found out that they couldn't here a difference.

Anyway, this discussion is getting nowhere as is usual with these type of arguments, so let’s agree to disagree shall we?

Adrian
I have
5 Amps all made by different company's .
All the Amps have different characteristics ,
1 . Bryston 4b ( a very live sound and powerful , easy to listin to at high volumes , use 2 channel pre )
2. Carver TFM 35 ( very clear highs , but sound stage not quite as good as 4b , very powerful , never crank this puppy up , its in my bedroom , use 2 channel pre )
3 . Sony N220 4 channel amp ( nice at low volumes with music , high volumes no good , use in my 5.1 set-up and have tryed in my room , its ok , but even at moderate volumes its just not there , like the 4b or Carver .
4 . JBL 2 channel bridged to mono for centre channel ( again nice at low volumes , lacking bass and sound stage and like the sony gets annoying at higher levels ) i found it much tinnyer in the high end than the sony .
5 . Kenwood km 106 ( just not a very good amp , hooked it up in my room and imediatly disconnected it , will use for a back up for 5.1 system ) .

I cant tell you the big differences in sound of the amps . I use the same brand pre for all ( all the pre's are made in same time frame ) .
The 4b is the best i have , it is effortless in reproducing music or movies ( 250 per channel rms @ 8ohms ) , the sound stage is almost Live .
The Carver is very different amp than the 4b in sound and soundstage (again 250 rms per channel rms @ 8 ohms) , much more detail in the high end and a softer sound . Still a great sounding amp .
Then the lower end stuff , the Sony is good enough for me for movies , not for music , same with the JBL . The kenwood i should just throw out .
In summary of course there is a difference in Amps and how they produce sound .

 

[mtrycrafts]

Some guy on another forum is saying that the Stereo Review "experiment" is highly flawed because it wasn't in a respected scientific journal. I mean, come on people, get with reality here. And I was actually “politely” told by an admin there that I've contributed enough to that argument. A pity, as I could say all sorts of things to some of the, uh, people that have replied there.

How about this being Jon Risch at AA? He has a very long history of this.
Interesting that the golden ears don't need anything published to believe audibility of anything. The explicitly trust their eyes

 

[mtrycrafts]

So the A/B blind tests are useful? Look, I’m sorry but you can't have it both ways; either it takes you audiophile guys a week or it's immediate.

And look at the test that this thread is all about; at the most extreme they tested $12,000 of Flutterman tube amp against a $200 Pioneer receiver, and people still couldn't make out a difference in the sound no matter if they had a long listening session or a short A/B. Maybe it's just me, but if I paid 12 grand on a bit of kit I'd want it to immediately sound a lot better than a $200 receiver especially when I can get that amount of power so much cheaper elsewhere.

And that example is repeated with a $15k Pass Aleph and 3 golden ears

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

 

[mtrycrafts]

Adrian
I have
5 Amps all made by different company's .
All the Amps have different characteristics ,
1 . Bryston 4b ( a very live sound and powerful , easy to listin to at high volumes , use 2 channel pre )
2. Carver TFM 35 ( very clear highs , but sound stage not quite as good as 4b , very powerful , never crank this puppy up , its in my bedroom , use 2 channel pre )
3 . Sony N220 4 channel amp ( nice at low volumes with music , high volumes no good , use in my 5.1 set-up and have tryed in my room , its ok , but even at moderate volumes its just not there , like the 4b or Carver .
4 . JBL 2 channel bridged to mono for centre channel ( again nice at low volumes , lacking bass and sound stage and like the sony gets annoying at higher levels ) i found it much tinnyer in the high end than the sony .
5 . Kenwood km 106 ( just not a very good amp , hooked it up in my room and imediatly disconnected it , will use for a back up for 5.1 system ) .

I cant tell you the big differences in sound of the amps . I use the same brand pre for all ( all the pre's are made in same time frame ) .
The 4b is the best i have , it is effortless in reproducing music or movies ( 250 per channel rms @ 8ohms ) , the sound stage is almost Live .
The Carver is very different amp than the 4b in sound and soundstage (again 250 rms per channel rms @ 8 ohms) , much more detail in the high end and a softer sound . Still a great sounding amp .
Then the lower end stuff , the Sony is good enough for me for movies , not for music , same with the JBL . The kenwood i should just throw out .
In summary of course there is a difference in Amps and how they produce sound .

Same old story, just different names. Nothing changes from the believers as that is all that is taking place, a belief system reinforced by biased perceptions, not facts.

You should expend the same amount of time you gathered these ideas to repeating them with proper level matched DBTs.

 

[mulester7]

Same old story, just different names. Nothing changes from the believers as that is all that is taking place, a belief system reinforced by biased perceptions, not facts.

You should expend the same amount of time you gathered these ideas to repeating them with proper level matched DBTs.

.....goofy guys with 4 inch thick glasses tricked the listeners, Mtry, and I bet the spl level chosen for the comparison was low moderate with the amp probably getting the pre-outs of a receiver....add the disorientation of blindfolds, and try to hear differences in already like-sounding amps at low moderate levels, go on....I think Mr. T is about to come crashing through your wall.....

 

[AdrianMills]

Same old story, just different names. Nothing changes from the believers as that is all that is taking place, a belief system reinforced by biased perceptions, not facts.

You should expend the same amount of time you gathered these ideas to repeating them with proper level matched DBTs.

You know I'm starting to think that these faithful aren't able to accept that they sometimes cannot trust their own senses - maybe it's because of an overexposure to old adages like "seeing is believing" and "believe your own ears".

Cool google groups link btw. Here's another and although it's not that related to amp comparisons it does show how crap we are at hearing distortion even under the best possible conditions for it... It’s another Clark/Masters article: Hearing Distortion

A cool quote from the google groups link of yours, "The pressure felt by these individuals during testing is a self-induced performance anxiety. The performance anxiety is a result of those same people now having to ponder whether their ears are truly golden, or merely stained that color from having had their heads up their asses for too long (and the rest of the world finding out about it.)"

Now that was funny.

 

[PENG]

You know I'm starting to think that these faithful aren't able to accept that they sometimes cannot trust their own senses - maybe it's because of an overexposure to old adages like "seeing is believing" and "believe your own ears".

You cannot convince those who believe in what they hear that they really do not. (Edit: Because they know what they heard, likewise I know what I heard and others cannot convince me that I do not) Perception is real to the person who perceives it. To save you a search, let me repeat what I posted before:
1)The ability to switch between A/B quickly, and level matching(or mismatching) makes the most difference in my experience.
2)I can hear a difference between my Polks, Energy ref 22 Con, and Veritas 2.3i. Did not try level matching, differences seem too obvious and the results were the same regarding of which one was louder.
3)I heard a slight difference between the 300W Bryston and the 200W Adcom but in that comparisons I did not level match. I was using the balance button to switch between the speakers in with the preamp set to mono.
4)WhenI A/B my GFP565 with the 3805 pre, difference became inaudible once level matched.

Someone mentioned that science would not tell us about what we hear. Yet it is through understanding, and the applications of scientific/engineering principles and theories that make it possible for us to enjoy the final products. I think you can ask people to report their own experience (as wire and I did) but you cannot prove whether the reported experience would be consistent with that resulted from a controlled test for the obvious reasons. Having said that, I think the outccome of a controlled test can be predicable, based on previously conducted tests and scientific evidence.

I think it is good to see people sharing different and opposing views, or reporting their own experiences. It is ultimately up to the individuals who are searching for answers, to find out for themselves and perhaps by their own experiements.

 

[mulester7]

You cannot convince those who believe in what they hear that they really do not.

.....pretty bold statement there, Peng....Cornelius bears witness that using a certain integrated amp is like pushing a 3D button, and you and Adrian continue to tell him he didn't hear any such thing....I keep reporting there is a definite difference in the presence and upper frequencies of three certain amps, and evidently you think the same toward me as Cornelius....I keep telling you Guys what to try that would get you out about the same price as a mid receiver, and you say you are considering doing that, but I doubt you ever will....what you are doing, is continuing to bring reports of blind hearing tests that were set up to confuse and HIDE the truth allowing Neanderthals to get published....I suspect the readers have grown weary of this discussion....I can't believe only two members at Audioholics.com have McIntosh pushing components....HiFiHoney, I sure wish you'd come back and make some comments....

 

[PENG]

.....pretty bold statement there, Peng....Cornelius bears witness that using a certain integrated amp is like pushing a 3D button, and you and Adrian continue to tell him he didn't hear any such thing

I said "You cannot convince those who believe in what they hear that they really do not."

What is bold about this? Why couldn't you see that I was agreeing with you that you heard what you heard and that no one can, or should tell you that you really didn't. May be the wording I used was not clear? I have never "told Cornelius he didn't hear any such thing". Where did you see it?

 

[The Dukester]

... I suspect the readers have grown weary of this discussion....I can't believe only two members at Audioholics.com have McIntosh pushing components....HiFiHoney, I sure wish you'd come back and make some comments....

You are probably right, Ronnie, they may be tired of the discussion.
There are more than two that use Mac; I'm another, so that's at least three.

I believe their is a difference in sound from amps. I have a McIntosh receiver with a built in rated 75 watt amp that actually runs 100 before the soft clipping circut cuts in. I went with a MC352 separate and could not believe the differnce right from the first note. Even at moderate listening levels, there is a big difference. 3-4 years after buying it I still commented on the difference it made.
Bear in mind I was pushing Mcintosh XRT20s, which are big, power hungry speakers, so that could be the difference. Not too sure, other than that it was there.
The only other A/B comparison I have done in my home was with my Denon HT rcvr with like results. I could tell a difference in the sound quality. Controled tests with accurate level matching is pretty hard to accomplish in most folks homes. You have to go by what you hear and your own experiences to a point.
There will always be folks on both sides of this fence, regardless of what science, DBTs, advertising and personal experiences say. If you can't hear the diff, then save your money and buy something else. If you can, then spend what you want/can afford and enjoy the difference you may or may not be actually hearing That's what I did, and I'm happy

 

[mulester7]

I said, "You cannot convince those who believe in what they hear, that they really do not."

....Peng, I added a comma to help define your statement....you didn't say some people didn't hear what they said they did???....for there to be a hearable difference from a larger pool of watts, you have to be at a higher spl level....to hear a difference in the presence of two components, moderate will do nicely....Peng, you seem to think your speakers are unworthy in some way, since they only set you back $1500 for the pair....I heard the "cheap" elements of homemade speakers come to life in '86....I now wave the flag of McIntosh, having studied the differences in 3 higher-end amps and 3 higher-end pre-amps....it was hands-down quickly with the pre-amps, but the amps had their own sound that needed to be absorbed for awhile....but, in the end, it was hands-down McIntosh for the amps....now there it is....the offer by PM still stands....you get a vintage solid-state Mc pre, and a vintage solid-state Mc stereo amp, and if you're disappointed for any reason, I'll take the stuff and reimberse you for ALL shipping added to the cost of the stuff for you to get it to my door....shoot, the only thing better I could do would be send you some of my stuff free, haha....rise up, my Son, and step forth into the water....you are close to whizzing down both legs....same for you, Adrian, and you too, Mtry....putteth uppeth, or, well, you know....I'm miles ahead of horsecrap blind tests by guys who set the standards to benefit their getting published, and I'm miles ahead by studying seperates to a decent degree....there are no golden ears, just tricks, or honest comparison over some time....I'm done with this....how many times have I said that?, haha....it gets old coming from people who don't have a clue past reading....

I have never "told Cornelius he didn't hear any such thing". Where did you see it?

....I felt it was implied, hang me from the highest tree....

 

[mulester7]

You are probably right, Ronnie, they may be tired of the discussion.
There are more than two that use Mac; I'm another, so that's at least three.

I believe there is a difference in sound from amps. I have a McIntosh receiver with a built in rated 75 watt amp that actually runs 100 before the soft clipping circut cuts in. I went with a MC352 separate and could not believe the difference right from the first note. Even at moderate listening levels, there is a big difference. 3-4 years after buying it I still commented on the difference it made.
Bear in mind I was pushing Mcintosh XRT20s, which are big, power hungry speakers, so that could be the difference. Not too sure, other than that it was there.
The only other A/B comparison I have done in my home was with my Denon HT rcvr with like results. I could tell a difference in the sound quality. Controled tests with accurate level matching is pretty hard to accomplish in most folks homes. You have to go by what you hear and your own experiences to a point.
There will always be folks on both sides of this fence, regardless of what science, DBTs, advertising and personal experiences say. If you can't hear the diff, then save your money and buy something else. If you can, then spend what you want/can afford and enjoy the difference you may or may not be actually hearing That's what I did, and I'm happy

.....good post, Duke....wow, an MC352....there's 350 a side with 400 probably in reality....question to all....does any Audioholic member live relatively close to North Little Rock?, like Memphis or Dallas or OKCity or upper Louisiana?......please PM me to come hear my stuff....I'll spring for all meals and lodge you for the night....any more owners of McIntosh that can speak up?......

.....edit....Duke and Cornelius, I guess we've had the wool pulled over our eyes and ears....we chose 20-30 year-old, plumb wore-out, fit-for-the-trash, costing hundreds, not thousands, McIntosh named Boat-Anchors....what we gonna' do?....these posters are making me sorta' ashamed to own the stuff considerin' it don't make no difference which stuff you buy it all sounds the same, and I suspect you two feel that same shame....looks like we pitched money out a window for old stuff, Duke and Cornelius....what?....I know, I know, none of us 3 agrees with all stuff sounding the same, but they say that reviewer and tester is well respected, so I guess we're nailed....Duke, I especially feel empathy toward you considering what you must have spent on your vintage Mac stuff, and have decided to take that MC352 off your burdened and now convicted hands for $100....in advance, I'll say I'll be glad to split the shpg, and hey, just let me catch it all, you look whupped enough...hey, I'm here for ya', Bud......

 

[cornelius]

I'll go back to my Arcam amps. After I sold that gear, I found out much later, that the guys over at Arcam purposely voiced the Alpha range of amps to "mellow" the sound of CDs. No gear out there is neutral, all designers design their gear to what sounds good to their ears, and as everyone here seems to agree, we all hear differently. Also, on those Arcams, that tone bypass sure made a difference.

 

[mulester7]

I'll go back to my Arcam amps. After I sold that gear, I found out much later, that the guys over at Arcam purposely voiced the Alpha range of amps to "mellow" the sound of CDs. No gear out there is neutral, all designers design their gear to what sounds good to their ears, and as everyone here seems to agree, we all hear differently. Also, on those Arcams, that tone bypass sure made a difference.

.....Cornelius, what you could try is a seperate Mc solid-state pre with the Arcam amps....for a C-26 to a C-30 range, you would have "around" 550 to 750 cost....same offer to you, Cornelius, I want another one close to the one I have in C-number anyway, for a seperate room 2-channel, and then a Mac pre goes to both kids when I'm plant food....Cornelius, do plants crap?.....

 

[The Dukester]

.....good post, Duke....wow, an MC352.... Duke, I especially feel empathy toward you considering what you must have spent on your vintage Mac stuff, and have decided to take that MC352 off your burdened and now convicted hands for $100....in advance, I'll say I'll be glad to split the shpg, and hey, just let me catch it all, you look whupped enough

Hey, Pal, one of the reasons I bought McIntosh in the first place was b/c of the resale value. I wont take a dime less than $200 for the amp.

 

[mulester7]

Hey, Pal, one of the reasons I bought McIntosh in the first place was b/c of the resale value. I wont take a dime less than $200 for the amp.

....haha, SOLD!!!....YOU GUYS HEARD HIM.....

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thanks for that link, archived

Here is one from Axiom and their research on this too:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#

 

[mtrycrafts]

No gear out there is neutral, all designers design their gear to what sounds good to their ears, and as everyone here seems to agree, we all hear differently. Also, on those Arcams, that tone bypass sure made a difference.

Well, you make a global claim with no evidence for this. But, there is evidence that they are transparent:

David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

However, you could show us the frequency response of that Arcam that it has a high frequency roll off sufficient to be audible.

And, you could speak with some real amp designers like Chris Russell at Bryston and see what the design goals are if not transparency. Then call the big consumer amps makers and see what their goals are if not transparency.

Oh, please check the link that Adrian Mills posted above about amp DBT. I'd like to know which amp was not transparent. Maybe David Rich can tell you as well.

The human mind is wonderful and it can imagine anything it wants to.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I believe their is a difference in sound from amps.

That's the answer. Belief, and not knowing.

 

[AdrianMills]

Thanks for that link, archived

Here is one from Axiom and their research on this too:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#

Good one, thanks.