shokhead
Audioholic General
Buckle-meister said:I knew you knew I'd reply.
I'm still waiting...
Can't take what exactly?
Regards
Forget it,its ok.
"Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment – not marketing slogans"
Forget it,its ok.
Buckle-meister
Audioholic Field Marshall
Okshokhead said:Forget it,its ok.
Regards
ironlung
Banned
Rock&Roll Ninja said:The Catholic Church has made it very clear that they do not condone the killing of men & women under any circumstance. Soldiers who kill "for their country" are not exceptions from the rule and damned to an eternity in Hell 'lest they repent and confess their sin.
If you're a protestant I guess its Ok, they don't have a governing body to verify these things........
Correct me if I'm wrong but the crusades were the catholics world tour of death and distruction. It was their ticket to the pearly gates to separate non believers from their heads. I think they trashed a bunch of Egyptian temples because the naked weiner artwork was offensive.
Aren't their about 1 billion Chinese doomed to hell right about now. They have not accepted the J-bird as their god, at least most of them.
"Love everyone except......"
P.S. No one wants to respond to my posts? I'm not trying to pick a fight. I have alot of respect for most of you. I have been lurking for a long while even before I signed up to post.
I know my previous posts might be a little sarcastic. It just frustrates me when some people are so matter of fact about the all mighty. It just seems to easy dismiss science.
In my simple understanding of the scientific method a legitimate answer to a question is "I don't know." or "I don't have enough info." The big bang and evolution seem like a more reasonable answer than "Let their be light." even if they are disproved eventually. That's the way science works.
Ignore away.....
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M
MDS
Audioholic Spartan
I don't usually like to get into religion because it is a very touchy subject between the believers and the non-believers...but oh well. I agree with you ironlung - the correct answer is 'I don't know'.
Here's the thing. Just as ironlung said 'Love everyone except...'. That's one problem I have with organized religion. Each religion has its own notion of god and they don't tolerate each other. If your religious beliefs differ from others, you should be killed. Kind of contrary to the whole idea of a benevolent being that supposedly created mankind in his image and teaches 'love thy neighbor', don't you think? [And which being is it - God, Jesus, Allah ...]
The other BIG problem I have with religion is what it takes to get to heaven, if one were to assume that such a place exists. I've posed this question to my grandmother who says she was 'saved' in 1967 and has been walking with the lord ever since. This is a woman that is strong in her convictions, reads three bibles a day, and knows more about ALL of the various religions than anyone you will ever meet. She doesn't hate other people or other religions, she just disagrees with some of the beliefs - because naturally a true believer believes the teachings they follow are right and the others have it wrong to one degree or another. In a nutshell, you have to accept the lord as your savior and accept that he did indeed die for your sins.
So, if you murder a hundred innocent little girls, like Ted Bundy, that is ok as long as five minutes before you die, you accept Jesus (because god has an infinite capability to forgive). But on the other hand, if you are basically a good person and have treated people kindly and with respect all your life but are ignorant of the teachings and never made the attempt to do whatever it takes to accept Jesus, then you are damned to eternal suffering? That's baloney. Gram says not to worry about that - just make sure YOU do the right thing to get into heaven.
The simple fact is the universe is way too complex for man to understand, so we look to other explanations, which are provided by religion. You either have faith that the things we can't understand were created by an almighty being or you don't. I personally think science does a much better job of explaining things, but admit that I (and nobody else for that matter) really knows. Nor will we ever.
Here's the thing. Just as ironlung said 'Love everyone except...'. That's one problem I have with organized religion. Each religion has its own notion of god and they don't tolerate each other. If your religious beliefs differ from others, you should be killed. Kind of contrary to the whole idea of a benevolent being that supposedly created mankind in his image and teaches 'love thy neighbor', don't you think? [And which being is it - God, Jesus, Allah ...]
The other BIG problem I have with religion is what it takes to get to heaven, if one were to assume that such a place exists. I've posed this question to my grandmother who says she was 'saved' in 1967 and has been walking with the lord ever since. This is a woman that is strong in her convictions, reads three bibles a day, and knows more about ALL of the various religions than anyone you will ever meet. She doesn't hate other people or other religions, she just disagrees with some of the beliefs - because naturally a true believer believes the teachings they follow are right and the others have it wrong to one degree or another. In a nutshell, you have to accept the lord as your savior and accept that he did indeed die for your sins.
So, if you murder a hundred innocent little girls, like Ted Bundy, that is ok as long as five minutes before you die, you accept Jesus (because god has an infinite capability to forgive). But on the other hand, if you are basically a good person and have treated people kindly and with respect all your life but are ignorant of the teachings and never made the attempt to do whatever it takes to accept Jesus, then you are damned to eternal suffering? That's baloney. Gram says not to worry about that - just make sure YOU do the right thing to get into heaven.
The simple fact is the universe is way too complex for man to understand, so we look to other explanations, which are provided by religion. You either have faith that the things we can't understand were created by an almighty being or you don't. I personally think science does a much better job of explaining things, but admit that I (and nobody else for that matter) really knows. Nor will we ever.
shokhead
Audioholic General
Also some of us sitting on the fence. Like my wife says,dont sit to long. LOL
majorloser
Moderator
"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints 'cause only the good die young."
Buckle-meister
Audioholic Field Marshall
Now now Ironlung. Don't be like that. No self respecting Christian would ignore you just because of a low post count. You're not a heathen though are you?!ironlung said:
Gram makes the rules now does she?!MDS said:
Just so you don't feel bad MDS, I lurrrve you!MDS said:
xxx
Buckle-meister
Audioholic Field Marshall
I'd rather laugh over eternity than over a human lifespan.majorloser said:
Regards
annunaki
Moderator
Going back to commandment six, I believe, the original Hebrew states "Thou shall not Kill". Murder was introduced so as to allow religious war?
I am deeply saddened by what the Crusaders did, as well as the Spanish (1300's-1500's) and Romans. They ruined/destroyed countless, priceless artifacts in their 'spreading god's word' and quests for gold. Perhaps, had they not been so destructive, we may have a better knowing of why and how we came to be. Had they used peace, maybe they would have had better success. I do not recall in the bible, or any religious text, where it says spread the word of god, if they do not accept, make them. It simply says spread the word.
On the other hand, maybe in their "spreading", they found something that proved them wrong and tried to cover it up/destroy the evidence.
I am deeply saddened by what the Crusaders did, as well as the Spanish (1300's-1500's) and Romans. They ruined/destroyed countless, priceless artifacts in their 'spreading god's word' and quests for gold. Perhaps, had they not been so destructive, we may have a better knowing of why and how we came to be. Had they used peace, maybe they would have had better success. I do not recall in the bible, or any religious text, where it says spread the word of god, if they do not accept, make them. It simply says spread the word.
On the other hand, maybe in their "spreading", they found something that proved them wrong and tried to cover it up/destroy the evidence.
Buckle-meister
Audioholic Field Marshall
This is contrary to what I have read. I read that it was 'murder', but that people commonly state it as 'kill'. This seemingly minor error seemingly (annunaki said:
) annoys Jews.Killing is a necessary action in order to survive. God gave us dominion over the beasts didn't He? We have to eat don't we? Murder is a different animal altogether.
Besides, venison tastes yummy!
Regards
ironlung
Banned
Buckle-meister said:You're not a heathen though are you?!
QUOTE]
I've never thought of it that way but I guess a christian would call me a heathen.
Ironlung the Heathen.....NICE!!!!!
ironlung
Banned
Dead is Dead
I never said I was on the fence. I'm well on the side of the non belivers. When I'm dead I plan on not being aware for all eternity. At least as aware as I was before I was alive.
I know to a christian this is hard to believe.
shokhead said:
I never said I was on the fence. I'm well on the side of the non belivers. When I'm dead I plan on not being aware for all eternity. At least as aware as I was before I was alive.
I know to a christian this is hard to believe.
ironlung
Banned
annunaki said:
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!
shokhead
Audioholic General
I meant me,i'm the fence rider.ironlung said:
T
The Dukester
Audioholic Chief
More truth
OK, fellows, here's my take once again. I am not avoiding anyone, just have to work for a living. Part of that sin payment for Adam and Eve blowing it in the garden.
Some religions and even worse, some people that are supposed to be Christians do indeed not like anyone that does not believe the way they do. I do not hate or overly dislike them and try to love them, even though it's tough. I could never love or even like some people unless Christ in me helps me to. The difference, once again, in real Christianity and other religions is relationship. Just as one that has not met someone (or at least talked to them such as on the internet, writing, etc.) can know them, an unbeliever cannot know Christ. The Bible plainly states that to the world, Christianity is foolishness. If I were a pagan looking at us I would say the same thing.
How foolish would it look for the US armed forces to take only a handful of troops out of the ranks, go to the enemy's stronghold, march around it each day and on the seventh shout with a loud voice after the trumpets blasted and expect the wall to come down and us win the battle? Exactly what God told Joshua to do at Jericho and it worked.
Christianity is all about faith. Works without faith is dead. I know it sounds strange to unbelievers, but "I know in whom I have believed and am pursuaded". Again, it's hard to believe in something you have not experienced for yourself. It may be a poor analogy, but I personally don't put much stock in speaker break-in. I have had a few sets of speakers and have not experienced break-in improving the sound. Others have and for them you could never convince otherwise. I have experienced a true, living God and nobody will ever convince me He does not exist. I talk to him and he speaks to me.
There are more witnesses to the fact that Jesus lived, died and was raised to life than there are that many other people in history even lived. I like science also. Science more often proves the Bible than disproves it. Also it seems every few years a piece of history is discovered that proves the Bible again and again.
As far as even believers agreeing to disagree, well, that's OK by me on many things. There are some core things that are key to the Christian faith that cannot be denied if you are to be a true Christian, but some things are just plain not that clear. This is also where faith plays a key part. Only God know all things. I would not want to believe in a God that did not know everything. What kind of God would that be? Also, I would not agree that living a good life "just in case" is good choice. For one, living a good life will only get you a nice funeral where the people eulogize and maybe a good citizen award to put in your casket; not into Heaven. For twozies, if I believed this life was all you get, the heck with everthing and everyone else, I'm going to eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!
Fortunately, I don't have to worry about the future, for I know who holds the future in his hands. You know, all you rebels out there should really consider Christianity. Jesus was sort of the ultimate rebel; and talk about dangerous! How do you deal with someone that is not afraid to die? You can't threaten a true Christian with death, because they are sure of their future and are actually looking forward to death. This world is not my home, just an appartment for awhile. My true home is a mansioin in Glory. Do I have a death wish? Absolutely not! I can't wait to see the next big sound processing development and HD2 TVs. All kidding aside, I hope to live to be 100 and in good health, but if I die tomorrow, I'm ready. I hope many of you are also and the offer to send a book out for free still stands for anyone that is truly intrested
Best wishes to all.
Duke
Hope you feel the Love!!!
OK, fellows, here's my take once again. I am not avoiding anyone, just have to work for a living. Part of that sin payment for Adam and Eve blowing it in the garden.
Some religions and even worse, some people that are supposed to be Christians do indeed not like anyone that does not believe the way they do. I do not hate or overly dislike them and try to love them, even though it's tough. I could never love or even like some people unless Christ in me helps me to. The difference, once again, in real Christianity and other religions is relationship. Just as one that has not met someone (or at least talked to them such as on the internet, writing, etc.) can know them, an unbeliever cannot know Christ. The Bible plainly states that to the world, Christianity is foolishness. If I were a pagan looking at us I would say the same thing.
How foolish would it look for the US armed forces to take only a handful of troops out of the ranks, go to the enemy's stronghold, march around it each day and on the seventh shout with a loud voice after the trumpets blasted and expect the wall to come down and us win the battle? Exactly what God told Joshua to do at Jericho and it worked.
Christianity is all about faith. Works without faith is dead. I know it sounds strange to unbelievers, but "I know in whom I have believed and am pursuaded". Again, it's hard to believe in something you have not experienced for yourself. It may be a poor analogy, but I personally don't put much stock in speaker break-in. I have had a few sets of speakers and have not experienced break-in improving the sound. Others have and for them you could never convince otherwise. I have experienced a true, living God and nobody will ever convince me He does not exist. I talk to him and he speaks to me.
There are more witnesses to the fact that Jesus lived, died and was raised to life than there are that many other people in history even lived. I like science also. Science more often proves the Bible than disproves it. Also it seems every few years a piece of history is discovered that proves the Bible again and again.
As far as even believers agreeing to disagree, well, that's OK by me on many things. There are some core things that are key to the Christian faith that cannot be denied if you are to be a true Christian, but some things are just plain not that clear. This is also where faith plays a key part. Only God know all things. I would not want to believe in a God that did not know everything. What kind of God would that be? Also, I would not agree that living a good life "just in case" is good choice. For one, living a good life will only get you a nice funeral where the people eulogize and maybe a good citizen award to put in your casket; not into Heaven. For twozies, if I believed this life was all you get, the heck with everthing and everyone else, I'm going to eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!
Fortunately, I don't have to worry about the future, for I know who holds the future in his hands. You know, all you rebels out there should really consider Christianity. Jesus was sort of the ultimate rebel; and talk about dangerous! How do you deal with someone that is not afraid to die? You can't threaten a true Christian with death, because they are sure of their future and are actually looking forward to death. This world is not my home, just an appartment for awhile. My true home is a mansioin in Glory. Do I have a death wish? Absolutely not! I can't wait to see the next big sound processing development and HD2 TVs. All kidding aside, I hope to live to be 100 and in good health, but if I die tomorrow, I'm ready. I hope many of you are also and the offer to send a book out for free still stands for anyone that is truly intrested
Best wishes to all.
Duke
Hope you feel the Love!!!
T
The Dukester
Audioholic Chief
[ .
If you believe in god do you also believe in Santa Claus
Absolutely! If you don't, he won't come!
I don't believe. It's the only logical conclusion.
Logic will get you burnt.
I'm sure this post will be ignored. My post count is to low![/QUOTE]
Not true! See my previous post.
If you believe in god do you also believe in Santa Claus
Absolutely! If you don't, he won't come!
I don't believe. It's the only logical conclusion.
Logic will get you burnt.
I'm sure this post will be ignored. My post count is to low![/QUOTE]
Not true! See my previous post.
Rock&Roll Ninja
Audioholic Field Marshall
Uh, no. The new testament never says you can't kill & eat tasty animals. You just can't kill or murder people.
This is a two parter.
1. Yes, you could theoretically murder 50,000 people and still be "saved" at the last minute. The thing is you actually have to repent with 100% of your soul or it doesn't work. And if you're the kind of person who could willingly kill 50,000 people, chances are good you really aren't sorry at all.
2. People who don't "find jesus" are not condemned to hell, since they didn't sin. The jesus-less go to purgatory with the other virtuous pagans. Sinfull pagans go to hell.
True, the Catholic church DID condone warfare against the heathen masses in centuries past. But this has been abolished in recent years. And since the 1950's the Church has offcially condemned any and all wars. even cold ones.
And Churches did feature nude art till about the sixth or seventh century. It wasn't till the dark ages that au natural became naughty.
This brings us papal decree. basically anything the Pope says is the way supercedes anything before it. You used to be able to buy your way into heaven with cash under various Popes (Planery Indulgences. You could even buy forgiveness for sins you hadn't done yet.... like say killing your annoying neighbor), only to have these options cancelled by other Popes. This "per-Pope ruling" is the largest criticism of Catholocism, and the reason Protestants/Lutherans/Methodists/Amish/mennonite/JerhovahsWitnesses came about during the renaissance.
I can only speak for Catholocism, since thats what i was trained in. But every religion claims to be the right one, so maybe they're right and you're wrong? But the 'Big Three' (Christian, Jewish, Islam) all follow the same monotheistic God. And JudaoChristiLam is the most popular religion in China. Wicca isn't terribly popular I hear. India has the largest non-monotheistic populace BTW, not China.
T
The Dukester
Audioholic Chief
Quote: This is a two parter.
1. Yes, you could theoretically murder 50,000 people and still be "saved" at the last minute. The thing is you actually have to repent with 100% of your soul or it doesn't work. And if you're the kind of person who could willingly kill 50,000 people, chances are good you really aren't sorry at all.
I agree, mostly. You do have to repent, but the Holy Spirit has to call you unto salvation through the blood of Jesus. Deciding to accept Jesus as your savior is not like deciding to quit smoking (no pun intended). It involves true repentance.
Quote:
2. People who don't "find jesus" are not condemned to hell, since they didn't sin. The jesus-less go to purgatory with the other virtuous pagans. Sinfull pagans go to hell.
I have to totaly disagree here. Like Daniel Ocean says, "Youre either in or your out" No middle ground.
You are right about "buying your way out of sins", etc being one of the reasons for the great reformation of the church. Check out the movie "Luther". It's a great flick about Martin Luther and his break from the Catholic Chruch.
.
.
I
1. Yes, you could theoretically murder 50,000 people and still be "saved" at the last minute. The thing is you actually have to repent with 100% of your soul or it doesn't work. And if you're the kind of person who could willingly kill 50,000 people, chances are good you really aren't sorry at all.
I agree, mostly. You do have to repent, but the Holy Spirit has to call you unto salvation through the blood of Jesus. Deciding to accept Jesus as your savior is not like deciding to quit smoking (no pun intended). It involves true repentance.
Quote:
2. People who don't "find jesus" are not condemned to hell, since they didn't sin. The jesus-less go to purgatory with the other virtuous pagans. Sinfull pagans go to hell.
I have to totaly disagree here. Like Daniel Ocean says, "Youre either in or your out" No middle ground.
You are right about "buying your way out of sins", etc being one of the reasons for the great reformation of the church. Check out the movie "Luther". It's a great flick about Martin Luther and his break from the Catholic Chruch.
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.
I
Buckle-meister
Audioholic Field Marshall
How do you know I'm Christian?ironlung said:
Not at all.ironlung said:
Yeah, I knew my post didn't come across right. What I was meaning was that even with humans, there is a distinction between killing and murder. Example; I throw an American football to my friend. He runs, he catches and...Bam! runs straight into the End-zone goal-post, instantly breaks his neck and dies. Will I go to Hell for this inadvertant killing of another human? No.Rock&Roll Ninja said:
However, if I walk up to my friend and shoot him dead on the spot, then because his killing was pre-meditated, i.e. murder, then I will indeed go to Hell.
This is why I am under the impression that the sixth Commandment says "Thou shalt not murder" rather than "Thou shalt not kill"; to differentiate between the two.
Regards
ironlung
Banned
What's your motivation?
Dukester said in a previous post
"Also, I would not agree that living a good life "just in case" is good choice. For one, living a good life will only get you a nice funeral where the people eulogize and maybe a good citizen award to put in your casket; not into Heaven. For twozies, if I believed this life was all you get, the heck with everthing and everyone else, I'm going to eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!"
I find this very interesting. My motivation for not killing or not behaving in general is not because god is going to send me to hell. It's because it's the right thing to do to make the world I live in a tolerable place to be.
I wear my seatbelt when I drive because I am concerned with my safety. Not beacuse the police are going to write me a ticket.
I don't treat people with respect and help my family, friends, and others when I can to get on gods good side. In fact I think that is about as hallow of a reason I can think of to do anything.
I help my family, friends, and others if I can because life is hard and a little cooperation can make the world better for the next generations. Not for a good citizen award in my casket.
That's the way its done in nature. The bears take care of and protect their baby's. They sort out their territory with little violence that's never fatal. Because instinct wants more bears in the future. Why are humans so special?
Dukesters joke about Santa is funny. But why don't you address the point I was trying to make?
I'll ask the question again. If you believe in god, do you also believe in Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth fairy? Why not?!?!?!?!?
If a lie is 2000+ years old and billions have believed in it, does it make any more true?
As far as the Jericoh(sp) reference I think its especially dangerous to treat the bible as a history book. Do you think that really happened?
I think the bible used as a fictional peice of literature is valuable. It can teach how to treat the world in a generally good way. It should be no more special than any other fictional work for illuminating the human condition.
How bout the religion of the Tourtise and the Hare?
BTW great debate!!!
Dukester said in a previous post
"Also, I would not agree that living a good life "just in case" is good choice. For one, living a good life will only get you a nice funeral where the people eulogize and maybe a good citizen award to put in your casket; not into Heaven. For twozies, if I believed this life was all you get, the heck with everthing and everyone else, I'm going to eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!"
I find this very interesting. My motivation for not killing or not behaving in general is not because god is going to send me to hell. It's because it's the right thing to do to make the world I live in a tolerable place to be.
I wear my seatbelt when I drive because I am concerned with my safety. Not beacuse the police are going to write me a ticket.
I don't treat people with respect and help my family, friends, and others when I can to get on gods good side. In fact I think that is about as hallow of a reason I can think of to do anything.
I help my family, friends, and others if I can because life is hard and a little cooperation can make the world better for the next generations. Not for a good citizen award in my casket.
That's the way its done in nature. The bears take care of and protect their baby's. They sort out their territory with little violence that's never fatal. Because instinct wants more bears in the future. Why are humans so special?
Dukesters joke about Santa is funny. But why don't you address the point I was trying to make?
I'll ask the question again. If you believe in god, do you also believe in Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth fairy? Why not?!?!?!?!?
If a lie is 2000+ years old and billions have believed in it, does it make any more true?
As far as the Jericoh(sp) reference I think its especially dangerous to treat the bible as a history book. Do you think that really happened?
I think the bible used as a fictional peice of literature is valuable. It can teach how to treat the world in a generally good way. It should be no more special than any other fictional work for illuminating the human condition.
How bout the religion of the Tourtise and the Hare?
BTW great debate!!!
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