Going Dual, add another sealed or replace with dual ported subs?

[justex07]

I’m in need of your expert guidance on how to take our home theater which lives in our living room in an open floor plan with the kitchen and dining room which makes for large amount of volume to energize even if the watching area is more compact:

• Living room (WDH) = 14x17x8 feet = 1,904 cubic feet
• Dining room (WDH) = 9.5x12x8 feet = 912 cubic feet
• Kitchen (WDH) = 9.5x14x8 feet = 1,064 cubic feet
• Total: 3,880 cubic feet (plus open doorways to other sections of the house)

Current Equipment:

• HDTV: LG G3 77” OLED
• Receiver: Anthem MRX 1140 8K
• Fronts: Paradigm Studio 60 v5 (left/right)
• Center: Paradigm Studio CC-590 v5
• Surrounds: Paradigm Studio 40 v5 (left/right)
• Subwoofer: SVS SB-13 Ultra
• Sources: Apple TV 4K v3, Sony PS5, and Fluance RT85N turntable with Schiit Mani 2 preamp

Last year we upgraded our receiver from an Anthem MRX 510 to the 1140 primarily to allow us to add Atmos height effect speakers and potentially a second subwoofer but also for its improved video handling. We also upgraded our TV from 6-year old Sony 4K LED tv to our first OLED, the LG G3 77”.

In doing these upgrades we also played around with speaker placement taking the subwoofer out of the front left corner to allow us to space out the front speakers to be much wider. Similarly we pulled the surround speakers to as wide as our listening space would allow. Since then the soundstage improved dramatically and now I’m looking for any guidance on optimizing the low frequency performance. Below are the measured (red) / adjusted (green) / target (black) according to the ARC Genesis room correction we used.

Presently we have a single SVS SB-13 Ultra and it’s nearly as big as I can make work in the living room width and depth wise, though taller would not be a problem. I purchased the SB-13 Ultra because I was mostly considering music playback and at the time (6+ years ago) this was what seemed to generally be recommended. However, these days we’re watching more movies and it seems to be missing the deep bass impact you get from a proper home theater/movie theater. I am considering two paths forward but would appreciate your guidance.

• Add a second sealed subwoofer (recommended model of similar size ~$500-2,000)
• Replace SVS SB-13 Ultra with two subwoofers (recommended model for dual setup ~$3,000)
• I’ve also contemplated just adding some bass shakers to the couch to see if that fulfills the desire for body-shaking bass effects. I’ve seen a few kits on PartsExpress that come in around $250-400...

We’re also interested in adding some height speakers for Dolby Atmos to go from 5.1 to 5.2.2 or 5.2.4 and have been considering the RSL C34E MKII architecture speakers. I’m not sure it it’s worth going with 4 height speakers with a single row of seats or not and whether these are still recommended for this use case or if there’s something better-matched to the rest of my equipment.

Thanks so much for any consideration, thoughts or recommendations you've got!

 

[lovinthehd]

If the width/depth is already limited many ported may exceed your allowable dimensions (altho to my eye it looks like you could fit some pretty large ported boxes ).....just what are the dimension limits? Dual sealed won't increase extension particularly, tho, main advantage would be smoothing room response, perhaps a bit of an increase in spl in lower bass.

 

[justex07]

From the looks of your room I would probably go with another sealed sub (placement restrictions for a bigger ported sub looks limited). There are a couple SB 4000 in the outlet store that would work well with your existing sub.

Thanks so much for that feedback. The SVS SB-4000 was one I was considering for the reasons you suggested. That said, I think I could go larger if I removed the fireplace (it's on wheels after all) and put the SB-13 there and then perhaps the SVS SB 16 Ultra back where the SB 13 current sits. Though I'd need to better understand how the two subs compare and whether that would make sense.

I'm also not married to sticking with SVS if matching subs isn't as important as LCRs. I've read good things about HSU, PSA and Rythmic but not sure if they're as much a better ROI than SVS these days as some folks suggest or which would work best for me.

 

[justex07]

If the width/depth is already limited many ported may exceed your allowable dimensions (altho to my eye it looks like you could fit some pretty large ported boxes ).....just what are the dimension limits? Dual sealed won't increase extension particularly, tho, main advantage would be smoothing room response, perhaps a bit of an increase in spl in lower bass.

You make some good points...

Technically I think I could go up to 5 inches wider, 2 inches deeper and 7 inches taller, though if I maxed out in all three dimensions it would likely give the impression I'm compensating haha. In my head ported subs would be more compact due to the port simulating a larger enclosure but that was quickly dispelled as I was looking at ported subs for my space.

If ported is really the only way to dig deeper, is there a particular model you'd recommend in a dual setup for this room?

 

[lovinthehd]

You make some good points...

Technically I think I could go up to 5 inches wider, 2 inches deeper and 7 inches taller, though if I maxed out in all three dimensions it would likely give the impression I'm compensating haha. In my head ported subs would be more compact due to the port simulating a larger enclosure but that was quickly dispelled as I was looking at ported subs for my space.

If ported is really the only way to dig deeper, is there a particular model you'd recommend in a dual setup for this room?

So what does that make max dims?

No, ported subs are larger, sealed is to save space more than anything. A lot of deep digging sealed subs (like maybe 4 to start, with appropriate eq/amps) can do well, but a deep digging ported is far more efficient at it, but lower tuning points tends to increase box size, too. For a pair of ported I think I'd look at Monolith and Hsu to start.

 

[justex07]

So what does that make max dims?

No, ported subs are larger, sealed is to save space more than anything. A lot of deep digging sealed subs (like maybe 4 to start, with appropriate eq/amps) can do well, but a deep digging ported is far more efficient at it, but lower tuning points tends to increase box size, too. For a pair of ported I think I'd look at Monolith and Hsu to start.

I think the max dimensions that would work would be up to 24 inches wide, 22 inches deep (with grill) and 27 inches tall.

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh, and I got curious a while back about a transducer in the seat. I mounted a Clark Synthesis unit in my couch under my primary seat in a sectional....then I rearranged the sectional a bit and now it's next to my favorite seat but in same module....still good. I don't worry about others, tho and my subs do fine on their own for those guys in any case.

 

[justex07]

Forgor to add, I would call SVS and see if they would entertain a trade up with your existing SB13 ultra to a new, dual matching set of your choice.

You could, of course, look on the used market for another SB13 and save some money. I'm a big proponent of having identical subs for proper integration.

That's an interesting thought, though I wonder if a dual SVS SB 4000 at $3,400 (and maybe a little less with trade in of SB 13 Ultra) would out-perform something like dual PSA EV18F-M subs which look to be about $700 less.

My bedroom setup is a pair of 1980s Klipsch Heresy speakers and an embarrassing Woot.com purchase of a random Pinnacle subwoofer. Meaning, if I go with two new dual subs, I could always move the SVS SB 13-Ultra to the bedroom space and give away the Pinnacle PS Sub 225 12" Powered Subwoofer lol.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

IMO, for budget subs you can’t beat the RSL 12s. A pair of those would handily outperform the old sealed ultra. It’s also time to forget about the ol sealed for music thing lol. That ship has sailed. HSU, and monolith are great performers as well, and offer more value, IMO, than svs does. However even a pair of PC2k’s would improve deep bass.

If you want to spend a little, as you said, Rythmik, and PSA are definitely worth consideration, and definitely the direction I’d go.

 

[justex07]

Oh, and I got curious a while back about a transducer in the seat. I mounted a Clark Synthesis unit in my couch under my primary seat in a sectional....then I rearranged the sectional a bit and now it's next to my favorite seat but in same module....still good. I don't worry about others, tho and my subs do fine on their own for those guys in any case.

The bass shaker/transducer space is super foreign to me. I wish there was a turnkey solution but even the "kits" I have found come with caveats like "add a DSP to cut anything above 40hz" etc. We've got this L-shaped sectional that seats 4 across. Figuring out whether I need 2 or 4 transducers and then finding an appropriate amplifier is weirdly difficult, or at least it gives me analysis paralysis, and that's even before considering return on investment and the fact I'd have to cut open our couch haha.

 

[lovinthehd]

The bass shaker/transducer space is super foreign to me. I wish there was a turnkey solution but even the "kits" I have found come with caveats like "add a DSP to cut anything above 40hz" etc. We've got this L-shaped sectional that seats 4 across. Figuring out whether I need 2 or 4 transducers and then finding an appropriate amplifier is weirdly difficult, or at least it gives me analysis paralysis, and that's even before considering return on investment and the fact I'd have to cut open our couch haha.

Lots of "by the seat of your pants" setup...literally !

Can be quite the challenge to wire multiple transducers/amps/crossovers if necessary, etc. Like multisub setup plus a bit more . I got to an acceptable place with some experimentation, but its not something you can measure well. Seat of the pants

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That's an interesting thought, though I wonder if a dual SVS SB 4000 at $3,400 (and maybe a little less with trade in of SB 13 Ultra) would out-perform something like dual PSA EV18F-M subs which look to be about $700 less.

My bedroom setup is a pair of 1980s Klipsch Heresy speakers and an embarrassing Woot.com purchase of a random Pinnacle subwoofer. Meaning, if I go with two new dual subs, I could always move the SVS SB 13-Ultra to the bedroom space and give away the Pinnacle PS Sub 225 12" Powered Subwoofer lol.

That's an interesting thought, though I wonder if a dual SVS SB 4000 at $3,400 (and maybe a little less with trade in of SB 13 Ultra) would out-perform something like dual PSA EV18F-M subs which look to be about $700 less.

This would be worth a call to Tom at PSA. He’s really down to earth and will not try to upsell you. IMO, better value than svs. I also believe the 18” PSA posts better numbers than the sb4k, which id expect being ported, and 18”.

 

[Golfx]

SVS will cost a little more than the others but they have better customer service and will help advise you on setup issues. SVS will also have their subs in stock and they sell through a dealer network as well—like Crutchfield. SVS also has an app that will work to control both subs at the same time.

Most of the smaller Internet Direct Companies also have lead times from weeks to months. PSA is cheaper but the owner avoids having his subs reviewed by independent reviewers. Always wonder how they would compare with real CEA 2010 numbers and why he will not send them for reviews.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Just remembered…
Yes, the RSL c34e’s are still great for Atmos, and in fact I have four installed here. Also, 5.4.4 is better than .2. You’ll get panning front to back as well as side to side. Plus improved imaging between the bed layer and over layer. It looks like you have the space so I’d recommend 5.x.4 Atmos.

 

[justex07]

Just remembered…
Yes, the RSL c34e’s are still great for Atmos, and in fact I have four installed here. Also, 5.4.4 is better than .2. You’ll get panning front to back as well as side to side. Plus improved imaging between the bed layer and over layer. It looks like you have the space so I’d recommend 5.x.4 Atmos.

5.4.4 wow you're ambitious! Best I can do is 5.2.4 Glad to hear the RSL's are still a great choice. That will be my pre-summer heat project to get into the attic to make those a reality!

 

[justex07]

SVS will cost a little more than the others but they have better customer service and will help advise you on setup issues. SVS will also have their subs in stock and they sell through a dealer network as well—like Crutchfield. SVS also has an app that will work to control both subs at the same time.

Most of the smaller Internet Direct Companies also have lead times from weeks to months. PSA is cheaper but the owner avoids having his subs reviewed by independent reviewers. Always wonder how they would compare with real CEA 2010 numbers and why he will not send them for reviews.

If it wasn't so expensive to ship them (sounds like a few hundred each way) I'd offer mine to be measured by ASR. Not sure how well Amir is received here but I do appreciate the objective measurements!

 

[lovinthehd]

If it wasn't so expensive to ship them (sounds like a few hundred each way) I'd offer mine to be measured by ASR. Not sure how well Amir is received here but I do appreciate the objective measurements!

Don't forget Erin's Audio Corner, too....ASR may not be a favorite of some here, but hard to argue with the measurements.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

5.4.4 wow you're ambitious! Best I can do is 5.2.4 Glad to hear the RSL's are still a great choice. That will be my pre-summer heat project to get into the attic to make those a reality!

Actually mine is 7.3.4. I was just saying that 5.x.4 is better than 5.x.2., or even 7.x.2. I’m lucky in that I have plenty of room behind me to accommodate rear surrounds, and rear tops. Ambitious, but worth it. To me anyway. My wife thinks I’m mental! But it’s reciprocal. lol

 

[-Jim-]

If it wasn't so expensive to ship them (sounds like a few hundred each way) I'd offer mine to be measured by ASR. Not sure how well Amir is received here but I do appreciate the objective measurements!

Don't forget Erin's Audio Corner, too....ASR may not be a favorite of some here, but hard to argue with the measurements.

I was just typing that. He deals in real measurements to follow up his listening test. Erin's Audio Corner

 

[Golfx]

If it wasn't so expensive to ship them (sounds like a few hundred each way) I'd offer mine to be measured by ASR. Not sure how well Amir is received here but I do appreciate the objective measurements!

I do not believe Amir would test a subwoofer. They require outside ground plane measurements for CEA-2010 comparison numbers. But, as per above, Erin does them. BTW, the last reviewer to review a PSA subwoofer was Shane Lee. While the overall review was positive he did mention just one problem, and for that, he was thoroughly criticized by zealous owners.