Freq Responses graph

[PENG]

Oh yeah forgot that sharp dips are not really that problematic as compared to big wide dips/nulls. That wide dip/null from 50hz-80hz with Audyssey OFF is a good example. Thanks again...will be looking forward to that.

Okay, for a quick first trial, here's the table for data input to the Editor App via Ratbuddyssey:

As mentioned before, while I tried my best, it is not possible to pick the exact anchor points because to do that I would need you actual REW files, the captured images you posted are only good as a rough guide. Obviously for the round numbers such as 70, 90, 100 Hz, my numbers will in fact be exact as I can see it just from the graphs you posted.

However, you can easily change the frequency anchor points from the rough/approx numbers in the table below, to the exact frequency when you look at the REW graphs yourself.

For example, the first one I picked is 21.5 Hz bump, on your actual graph it may be 23 Hz, so then you can simply read the SPL on the vertical scale and replace the 82.3 dB in the second column with whatever you see, say it is 83 dB, then the cut will become 83-80 = 3 dB instead of the 2.3 dB shown in my table.

The 80 Hz is my suggested reference SPL, that seems appropriate base on graphs you posted. After entering the data via Ratbudyssey to the subwoofer channel, you have save the .ady file in a name that you can easily identify later. Then load this file into the app (with my Galaxy android pad I could just copy the file to the appropriate folder) and when you can see it and open it with the App. You will then be able to see the new customized target curve. You can then do you thing such as disable MRC, limit EQ range to 300 Hz etc., and then just send it the AVR and then plot some REW graphs again.

When entering the dB to cut, be sure to enter negative sign so it knows they are cuts.

Reference frequency point for cuts/boosts	80
Freq. anchor points	SPL at anchor freq. points	dB to cuts/boosts
17	80	2.5
20	80.5	2
23	81	2
25.6	83	-0.5
30	84	-1
34	83.5	-1
37	84	-2
40	84	-2
45	84	-2.5
50	83.8	-2.5
54.5	84	-2.5
62	83.8	-3
67	84.8	-4
70	84	-3.5
80	83	-0.5
84	84	-3.5
86.5	84	-4
89	85	-4.5
90	84.5	-4.5
93.5	84.5	-4.5
94	84.5	-4.5
98	84	-4
100	83.5	-3.5
107	83	-3
109	82.3	-2.3
128	81	-1

If you do everything right, the results may not be the best possible yet without a second trial, but it should be close enough that you will most likely see a flatter curve in the 20-120 Hz range. And if you want to stop there, then you simply have to do it one more time to get your house curve (or Harman curve) back easily. You can also try simply increasing the sub level trims by 3 dB and see if you like the effects. It all depends on how the customized curve looks like, you won't know until you use REW to plot the new FR curves.

 

[ciotime]

Okay, for a quick first trial, here's the table for data input to the Editor App via Ratbuddyssey:

As mentioned before, while I tried my best, it is not possible to pick the exact anchor points because to do that I would need you actual REW files, the captured images you posted are only good as a rough guide. Obviously for the round numbers such as 70, 90, 100 Hz, my numbers will in fact be exact as I can see it just from the graphs you posted.

However, you can easily change the frequency anchor points from the rough/approx numbers in the table below, to the exact frequency when you look at the REW graphs yourself.

For example, the first one I picked is 21.5 Hz bump, on your actual graph it may be 23 Hz, so then you can simply read the SPL on the vertical scale and replace the 82.3 dB in the second column with whatever you see, say it is 83 dB, then the cut will become 83-80 = 3 dB instead of the 2.3 dB shown in my table.

The 80 Hz is my suggested reference SPL, that seems appropriate base on graphs you posted. After entering the data via Ratbudyssey to the subwoofer channel, you have save the .ady file in a name that you can easily identify later. Then load this file into the app (with my Galaxy android pad I could just copy the file to the appropriate folder) and when you can see it and open it with the App. You will then be able to see the new customized target curve. You can then do you thing such as disable MRC, limit EQ range to 300 Hz etc., and then just send it the AVR and then plot some REW graphs again.

When entering the dB to cut, be sure to enter negative sign so it knows they are cuts.

Reference frequency point for cuts/boosts	80
Freq. anchor points	SPL at anchor freq. points	dB to cuts/boosts
17	80	2.5
20	80.5	2
23	81	2
25.6	83	-0.5
30	84	-1
34	83.5	-1
37	84	-2
40	84	-2
45	84	-2.5
50	83.8	-2.5
54.5	84	-2.5
62	83.8	-3
67	84.8	-4
70	84	-3.5
80	83	-0.5
84	84	-3.5
86.5	84	-4
89	85	-4.5
90	84.5	-4.5
93.5	84.5	-4.5
94	84.5	-4.5
98	84	-4
100	83.5	-3.5
107	83	-3
109	82.3	-2.3
128	81	-1

If you do everything right, the results may not be the best possible yet without a second trial, but it should be close enough that you will most likely see a flatter curve in the 20-120 Hz range. And if you want to stop there, then you simply have to do it one more time to get your house curve (or Harman curve) back easily. You can also try simply increasing the sub level trims by 3 dB and see if you like the effects. It all depends on how the customized curve looks like, you won't know until you use REW to plot the new FR curves.

I just read your reply...thank you so much for taking the time and effort to do this. Truly truly appreciate it. Just a recap...
"After entering the data via Ratbudyssey to the subwoofer channel"-so I enter the values you provided in the Sub Ch...I DON'T need to enter these values on the FL/FR/Center etc anymore? I just leave ALL the speakers blank?

 

[PENG]

I just read your reply...thank you so much for taking the time and effort to do this. Truly truly appreciate it. Just a recap...
"After entering the data via Ratbudyssey to the subwoofer channel"-so I enter the values you provided in the Sub Ch...I DON'T need to enter these values on the FL/FR/Center etc anymore? I just leave ALL the speakers blank?

That is correct, for the first run, leave FL/FR/C alone, just see what happens by just fine tuning the sub channel.
Before you do it, you may want to re-read post#144 in the owners thread, and there is a link to a good video in post#168 too that imo worth viewing.

PS: I edited the table just to shape the curve closer to the "harman curve".

 

[ciotime]

That is correct, for the first run, leave FL/FR/C alone, just see what happens by just fine tuning the sub channel.
Before you do it, you may want to re-read post#144 in the owners thread, and there is a link to a good video in post#168 too that imo worth viewing.

PS: I edited the table just to shape the curve closer to the "harman curve".

So in the SUBs Filter Freq Range I DON'T put a limit on it? It stays as is with EQ up to 250Hz? So does that mean that whatever EQ/delays I put in the miniDsp is NO longer being applied?

 

[PENG]

So in the SUBs Filter Freq Range I DON'T put a limit on it? It stays as is with EQ up to 250Hz? So does that mean that whatever EQ/delays I put in the miniDsp is NO longer being applied?

Don't put any limit. It will be limited to 250 Hz anyway by Audyssey, and by default.

I don't understand your miniDsp question, but whatever you do with the App is separate from the things you did with the minidDsp and REW EQ, those will remain in effect, but with Audyssey on the overall results will of course be under the influence of both.

When ran Audyssey last time, the data collected would have been under the influence of the miniDsp/REW filters, and that would have made Audyssey's job easier because the mini had already done its thing.

 

[3db]

Not really, consider the following:

1) You are now looking at the combined effects so you can't logically compare which one by itself is doing a better job, but of course the mini could have done some good in some ways, such as time aligning 3 subwoofers.

2) You can't go by that 58 Hz dip, because as you may know, we are not sensitive to such sharp dips, SVS will tell that for sure, as well as authoritative experts such as Dr. Toole.

So now look at this anyway, with Audyssey on, between 18 Hz and 120 Hz, you are within 5 dB peak to peak, or arguable +/- 2.5 dB. Compared that to with Audyssey limited to only 20 Hz, you are getting a 14 dB peak to peak variance, but a lot of that is obviously due to the boost you made in order to get that custom curve, but even without that, you would likely still have more than 5 dB peak to peak within the same 18 to 120 Hz.

With these curves, I already know you can use the Editor/Rat to improve what you already have by a couple dB for sure. Let me play with it this weekend and get you something hopefully useful.

The minidsp did a better job with the bass region than Auddessy did and it did it with far less work. I bet the OP could get even tighter results with the miniDSP if he played with it some more.

 

[PENG]

The minidsp did a better job with the bass region than Auddessy did and it did it with far less work. I bet the OP could get even tighter results with the miniDSP if he played with it some more.

I assume you are referring to the last graphs he has posted. If so, I would neither agree or disagree with your observations because the graphs he last posted show the combined effects of both that I asked for; and they did show with Audyssey, the FR for the bass region has improved and it would take little time to put back his custom house curve. Again, it was the combined effects shown in those graphs so it is not possible for me to say whether the mini did a better job or vice versa. So yes you could be right in that sense.

By the way, I only offer help to improve his FR further because he posted what he has achieved with the mini asked for input. I have also been clear, that in my opinion, his mini has already done a good job and any further improvement by playing with the Audyssey Editor app will not likely be for audible gain but for a smoother FR in the range 20 to 120 (or higher, depends..) Hz range, sort of on paper and for fun, and if he has time to play.

 

[3db]

I assume you are referring to the last graphs he has posted. If so, I would neither agree or disagree with your observations because the graphs he last posted show the combined effects of both that I asked for; and they did show with Audyssey, the FR for the bass region has improved and it would take little time to put back his custom house curve. Again, it was the combined effects shown in those graphs so it is not possible for me to say whether the mini did a better job or vice versa. So yes you could be right in that sense.

By the way, I only offer help to improve his FR further because he posted what he has achieved with the mini asked for input. I have also been clear, that in my opinion, his mini has already done a good job and any further improvement by playing with the Audyssey Editor app will not likely be for audible gain but for a smoother FR in the range 20 to 120 (or higher, depends..) Hz range, sort of on paper and for fun, and if he has time to play.

I find the 200 to 800 Hz range difficult to tame.

 

[ciotime]

Don't put any limit. It will be limited to 250 Hz anyway by Audyssey, and by default.

I don't understand your miniDsp question, but whatever you do with the App is separate from the things you did with the minidDsp and REW EQ, those will remain in effect, but with Audyssey on the overall results will of course be under the influence of both.

When ran Audyssey last time, the data collected would have been under the influence of the miniDsp/REW filters, and that would have made Audyssey's job easier because the mini had already done its thing.

Ah ok...I was just wondering coz when comparing the graph with NO limit ( up to 250hz ) versus the one where we limited the filter freq range to the lowest ( down to 20hz )

I find the 200 to 800 Hz range difficult to tame.

Thanks for the inputs...I will be limiting the Filter Freq Range to around 350Hz since this is where the Schroeder Freq is. Majority of the tutorials I've seen don't recommend to EQ full range if one's speakers are good.

 

[ciotime]

I assume you are referring to the last graphs he has posted. If so, I would neither agree or disagree with your observations because the graphs he last posted show the combined effects of both that I asked for; and they did show with Audyssey, the FR for the bass region has improved and it would take little time to put back his custom house curve. Again, it was the combined effects shown in those graphs so it is not possible for me to say whether the mini did a better job or vice versa. So yes you could be right in that sense.

By the way, I only offer help to improve his FR further because he posted what he has achieved with the mini asked for input. I have also been clear, that in my opinion, his mini has already done a good job and any further improvement by playing with the Audyssey Editor app will not likely be for audible gain but for a smoother FR in the range 20 to 120 (or higher, depends..) Hz range, sort of on paper and for fun, and if he has time to play.

Correct...ALL the graph's provided have the miniDsp engaged. Only difference was whether the XT32's subs filter freq range was limited to 20hz or no limit ( 250hz ).

 

[ciotime]

The minidsp did a better job with the bass region than Auddessy did and it did it with far less work. I bet the OP could get even tighter results with the miniDSP if he played with it some more.

Honestly I'm quite happy with the bass region results as is. It's the 120hz-300hz region that I hope to improve upon. The miniDsp can't since it's only handling the subs. Short of getting a DDRC24 ( Dirac ) maybe the XT32 can improve it. With Peng's help hopefully it'll get better. Will post the new REW graphs once I have time. Was down a couple of days due to a stomach bug.

 

[PENG]

Honestly I'm quite happy with the bass region results as is. It's the 120hz-300hz region that I hope to improve upon.

We can tackle that range with the App+Rat after, for now I just want to see that you succeed in using it to do the lower bass range. One thing about Audyssey is, you already have it, and you can disable the effects anytime easily, leaving what you have achieved untouched.

In my experience, the difficulty with the 120 to 300 range is mainly that the subs and the speakers are not that easy to integrate (I mean mostly on paper, and compare to what you have now). It would likely involve lots of trial and error. I do not believe the mini/REW can do better, but the mini+Dirac may, though based on my trail experience with Dirac Live and XT32 (without the App+Rat), I would rank them roughly equal in that range.

I can show you the some of the results of XT32 vs Dirac for that range if I can find it from my hard drives. I do believe Dirac would win if you want to EQ full range, or just above your room transition frequency.

Regardless, your 120 - 300 Hz range may not look perfect yet, but can you really tell a difference in a DBT if you can improve it by a few dB? I doubt that.. In my opinion, such exercise are great for fun and satisfaction just knowing how the FR looks better on paper; though it might be a must for people with OCD (like me).

 

[ciotime]

We can tackle that range with the App+Rat after, for now I just want to see that you succeed in using it to do the lower bass range. One thing about Audyssey is, you already have it, and you can disable the effects anytime easily, leaving what you have achieved untouched.

In my experience, the difficulty with the 120 to 300 range is mainly that the subs and the speakers are not that easy to integrate (I mean mostly on paper, and compare to what you have now). It would likely involve lots of trial and error. I do not believe the mini/REW can do better, but the mini+Dirac may, though based on my trail experience with Dirac Live and XT32 (without the App+Rat), I would rank them roughly equal in that range.

I can show you the some of the results of XT32 vs Dirac for that range if I can find it from my hard drives. I do believe Dirac would win if you want to EQ full range, or just above your room transition frequency.

Regardless, your 120 - 300 Hz range may not look perfect yet, but can you really tell a difference in a DBT if you can improve it by a few dB? I doubt that.. In my opinion, such exercise are great for fun and satisfaction just knowing how the FR looks better on paper; though it might be a must for people with OCD (like me).

True...looks good on paper but I doubt if I will even notice it at all.

 

[PENG]

True...looks good on paper but I doubt if I will even notice it at all.

I certainly cannot. Most people are most sensitive to the range 2,000 to 5,000 Hz.

I found one graph I posted before (no tweaking, just ran and played):

You think you can hear a difference between the black and the blue in the 100 to 230 Hz range?

Most will likely prefer the red, no EQ, because of the big bump in the above 35 Hz to 63 Hz range though. Hence why so many complained about Audyssey taking the "life" out of the movies.

 

[ciotime]

I certainly cannot. Most people are most sensitive to the range 2,000 to 5,000 Hz.

I found one graph I posted before (no tweaking, just ran and played):

You think you can hear a difference between the black and the blue in the 100 to 230 Hz range?

Most will likely prefer the red, no EQ, because of the big bump in the above 35 Hz to 63 Hz range though. Hence why so many complained about Audyssey taking the "life" out of the movies.

View attachment 49260

Of course!!! Almost everyone loves BASS

 

[PENG]

Found my source REW files, below are the Impulse graphs, Dirac did better.

Between 100 and 350 Hz FR:

 

[ciotime]

Found my source REW files, below are the Impulse graphs, Dirac did better.

View attachment 49262

View attachment 49263

Between 100 and 350 Hz FR:

View attachment 49264

Hi Peng...I just ran some measurement's with the boosts/cuts applied to the subs. Below are the graphs. Blue is the one WITHOUT the data that you gave. The next graph is the measurement's across the 3 seats..

 

[PENG]

Found another old graph plotted in 2017, when I was using

Hi Peng...I just ran some measurement's with the boosts/cuts applied to the subs. Below are the graphs. Blue is the one WITHOUT the data that you gave. The next graph is the measurement's across the 3 seats..

View attachment 49267

So the red one is the one with the cuts/boost entered via Rat? If it is, then you already have a house curve but I would apply a cut of about 2 to 3 dB as follow:

20 Hz: -1.5
23 Hz: -1.7
25 Hz: - 1.8
31 Hz: -1.7
35 Hz: -1.9

and you are done with the sub and ready to do the FL and FR.

You can definitely fix the two sharp dips at about 140 and 155 hz but you would have to take deeper cuts to the 20 to 115 Hz range. In other words, lower the target spl to about 78 dB. Without that, you can still reduce those tow dips by 2 to 3 dB but likely not more than that. Your call..

 

[PENG]

Still no smoothing right?

 

[ciotime]

Still no smoothing right?

Yep no smoothing