For the love of god or whoever … VOTE!

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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
It looks like we should have the AP predicted winner by the end of today (Thursday).
Most likely by 10AM when Nevada has announced it will report it's numbers (This will not be a 100% count, but may get enough data out there for AP to call the state).
Nevada provides exactly the 6 Electoral College votes Biden needs to get 270!
Biden is currently ahead, and it would be a real fluke if Trump benefited more from the mail-in votes than Biden!

I can't believe Georgia is so close! Right now Trump is 0.6% ahead with 98% of the estimated vote counted. They can't call it yet because mail-in ballots are supposed to favor Biden. The question is whether or not the remaining 2% to be counted breaks down as 1.3%/0.7% for Biden/Trump or at least 2/3rds of those votes are for Biden.
Right now, we are talking about an advantage for Trump of less than 30K out of 4.8M votes. And that difference is expected to narrow!
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm glad you both voted. And it's about time. We've discussed this before, so I won't belabor the point.

Does it take an unwanted war and an extremely unpopular draft to get people interested in voting?
I think many abstainers finally decide that it's important when they stand to gain or lose something. If it's just same SSDE (Same Shyte, Different Election) they don't bother.
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
there are ways to spend almost nothing on fish care once you are all set up.. but it's dependent on not going to the lfs and drooling over everything there.. the biggest thing is get *decent*(maybe not expensive) filtration and not falling into that rabbit hole...
It's a matter of space.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
This was easily predictable. Biden could have had a landslide win, but he decided to play footsie with Sanders and the other "progressives", and so millions who wouldn't have voted for Trump voted with their financial interests, held their nose, and apparently voted for Trump anyway. But more importantly, it looks like the Republicans are going to retain a majority in the Senate. If the Senate retains a GOP majority after all the votes are counted, it doesn't really matter, policy-wise, if Biden is elected. It would be refreshing to get Trump out of the WH, but this means Biden's entire agenda is out the window. Obamacare expansion, Medicare expansion, tax increases, energy policy, environmental policy, you name it. And the equity markets love it, because as soon as they figured out what was happening in the Senate the stock price futures went up, big time. All of the GOP tax policies will stick. And that continued through the trading day today. And guess which stock when up more (as a percentage) than any other DJIA stock? United Health Group, a big health insurance company. And Merck and Amgen were up there too, because the progressive health care agenda, especially Medicare for All, looks totally dead. (Medicare for All includes price controls on drugs.)

If Trump is elected the House will block everything the GOP tries to do. If Biden is elected the Senate will block everything the Democrats try to do. Businesses generally do better when the government is gridlocked, especially when taxes were lowered previously, so this will be like Obama's second term. Hopefully we'll have Biden in the WH, so we won't look like fools diplomatically, and the Executive branch will show some much-needed leadership. In the meantime I expect a lot of drama about recounts and lawsuits.
While I agree with your sober analysis Irv, I still don’t understand, or refuse to understand, how people can vote against their own economic self-interests, never mind the blatant corruption, racism and loonieness coming out from this current administration.

I can completely understand an upper middle class or rich family, making more than $300K a year, voting Republican. That’s just common sense. But how a working class or middle-class family will vote for them just mystifies me, since they or their children won’t benefit from it now or in the long run. I guess they unrealistically believe that they too one day will join those ranks, like those people who buy a weekly Power Ball ticket hoping to win millions, even though the odds are higher than being struck by lightning.

I too have benefited from my investments in the stock market, different mutual funds and bonds but I have this gnawing feeling it’s all short-sighted and these boom or bust swings in the economy will in the long run do more harm than good for future generations. Warren Buffett has said so himself, as well as the late John C. Bogle of Vanguard, both of who I admire greatly.

It seems to me that the day of American corporations plowing back their profits into their company, investing in R&D, instead of acquiring and over paying for smaller companies who’ve done the heavy lifting, for slow but steady growth, and staying ahead of the competition with their own in-house R&D, like Western Electric/Bell Labs did, is a thing of the past. And don't get me started on what we pay the head of these corporations, profitable or not. It's just obscene.

Look no further than Microsoft after Bill Gates, Google and Apple, etc. Unlike Jeff Bezos & Amazon who insists on keeping almost everything in-house whenever possible and has shown steady but slow-growth from day one and shareholders are a secondary consideration.

Instead the emphasis nowadays is on meeting unrealistic quarterly dividends and the impatient quick-buck shareholder who, if you think about it, has no interest in the economic long-term health of the company.

The analogy that comes to mind are the mobsters in “Goodfellas”, who have a hidden interest in a business, and the bar owner or trash collection companies are running into problems paying back their loans and their response is, ‘Feck you, pay me!’, no matter that they’re destroying a business and all the people who are truly invested in it.

Sorry to digress.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
While I agree with your sober analysis Irv, I still don’t understand, or refuse to understand, how people can vote against their own economic self-interests, never mind the blatant corruption, racism and loonieness coming out from this current administration.

I can completely understand an upper middle class or rich family, making more than $300K a year, voting Republican. That’s just common sense. But how a working class or middle-class family will vote for them just mystifies me, since they or their children won’t benefit from it now or in the long run. I guess they unrealistically believe that they too one day will join those ranks, like those people who buy a weekly Power Ball ticket hoping to win millions, even though the odds are higher than being struck by lightning.

I too have benefited from my investments in the stock market, different mutual funds and bonds but I have this gnawing feeling it’s all short-sighted and these boom or bust swings in the economy will in the long run do more harm than good for future generations. Warren Buffett has said so himself, as well as the late John C. Bogle of Vanguard, both of who I admire greatly.
I've posted this analysis before, but I can't find the post via a search, so I'll summarize it again. Trump's loyal base is about a third of the electorate. Other people with an economic interest in Republican tax and property policies include small business owners, of which there are millions. Landlords, there are millions too. There are probably a million people with 401K balances over $1M. Fidelity investments alone manages about 200,000 such accounts. IRA accounts over $1M are probably more than another million. The number of 401K and IRA accounts between $250K and $1M are almost certainly in the millions. And there's a multiplier effect by at least 2x for married couples who tend to vote alike. There are a lot of people, IMO, with a vested economic interest who may close their eyes to Trump's behavioral ugliness to vote against the progressive agenda. And just thinking about it, I'll add in anyone who works for the fossil fuel energy industries, the airlines, power companies, and probably anyone else who would be economically inconvenienced by The New Green Deal.

BTW, an annual income of $300K puts you in the top 5% of wage earners. You're not "upper middle class".

So I think there are potentially many millions of voters who may be silent Trump voters, and I also think these people are more likely to actually vote than left-leaning people.

It seems to me that the day of American corporations plowing back their profits into their company, investing in R&D, instead of acquiring and over paying for smaller companies who’ve done the heavy lifting, for slow but steady growth, and staying ahead of the competition with their own in-house R&D, like Western Electric/Bell Labs did, is a thing of the past. And don't get me started on what we pay the head of these corporations, profitable or not. It's just obscene.

Look no further than Microsoft after Bill Gates, Google and Apple, etc. Unlike Jeff Bezos & Amazon who insists on keeping almost everything in-house whenever possible and has shown steady but slow-growth from day one and shareholders are a secondary consideration.

Instead the emphasis nowadays is on meeting unrealistic quarterly dividends and the impatient quick-buck shareholder who, if you think about it, has no interest in the economic long-term health of the company.
I think you have some misconceptions about how US product companies work. Just for starters, Amazon and Google do not pay dividends, and never have. Microsoft and Apple pay small dividends. Amazon does not always grow products from within either, they often acquire other companies for their technology. As does Apple, Microsoft, Google, Facebook, Oracle, Intel, Nvidia and just about every other big technology company. For example, some of Amazon's AWS products or technologies are based on external investments or acquisitions. Their latest ARM-based CPU and networking technologies are developed by an Israeli company they acquired called Annapurna. The Redshift data warehousing software came from a company Amazon invested in called ParAccel. Some technologies are developed in-house, but some aren't. Other Amazon technology acquisitions I can think of include Elemental Technologies, E8, and Zoox.

The model of investing in start-ups and later doing acquisitions is seen as a way to fund diverse innovation without big-company processes and oversight. Having been in big technology companies, a start-up, and corporate labs, any of these models can work, and, as with all innovation, a lot of initiatives fail no matter where they start. I, for one, do not look back at the Bell Labs model romantically at all, and I was tangentially associated with them when the company I worked for was acquired by AT&T. More recently I was hired into a big corporate labs organization, and I don't look back at that experience in a positive manner either. Depending only on in-house innovation is not a model that keeps you at the forefront of the industry. Even old-line companies know this. GM acquired a start-up called Cruise for self-driving technology, and now GM's implementation is considered by Consumer Reports to be the best in the industry, surpassing Tesla:


I know it's romantic to think about Bells Labs and the transistor or Unix, but the reality is that internal labs are often slow, ponderous, and highly political. Companies use the external investment model because oftentimes it works best. To paraphrase Andy Grove, only the open-minded and nimble survive.
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
While I agree with your sober analysis Irv, I still don’t understand, or refuse to understand, how people can vote against their own economic self-interests, never mind the blatant corruption, racism and loonieness coming out from this current administration.

I can completely understand an upper middle class or rich family, making more than $300K a year, voting Republican. That’s just common sense. But how a working class or middle-class family will vote for them just mystifies me, since they or their children won’t benefit from it now or in the long run. I guess they unrealistically believe that they too one day will join those ranks, like those people who buy a weekly Power Ball ticket hoping to win millions, even though the odds are higher than being struck by lightning.

I too have benefited from my investments in the stock market, different mutual funds and bonds but I have this gnawing feeling it’s all short-sighted and these boom or bust swings in the economy will in the long run do more harm than good for future generations. Warren Buffett has said so himself, as well as the late John C. Bogle of Vanguard, both of who I admire greatly.

It seems to me that the day of American corporations plowing back their profits into their company, investing in R&D, instead of acquiring and over paying for smaller companies who’ve done the heavy lifting, for slow but steady growth, and staying ahead of the competition with their own in-house R&D, like Western Electric/Bell Labs did, is a thing of the past. And don't get me started on what we pay the head of these corporations, profitable or not. It's just obscene.

Look no further than Microsoft after Bill Gates, Google and Apple, etc. Unlike Jeff Bezos & Amazon who insists on keeping almost everything in-house whenever possible and has shown steady but slow-growth from day one and shareholders are a secondary consideration.

Instead the emphasis nowadays is on meeting unrealistic quarterly dividends and the impatient quick-buck shareholder who, if you think about it, has no interest in the economic long-term health of the company.

The analogy that comes to mind are the mobsters in “Goodfellas”, who have a hidden interest in a business, and the bar owner or trash collection companies are running into problems paying back their loans and their response is, ‘Feck you, pay me!’, no matter that they’re destroying a business and all the people who are truly invested in it.

Sorry to digress.
honestly i think an antiquated false dichotomy was created that drives the discussion..republicans have nurtured the thought that "low income" is like a childhood disease that everybody goes through , then graduates from to prosperity .. and this dialogue resonates to this day...white working class republicans seem to buy into "i can be like that" ... it's imo, all a strategy to keep the uber wealthy just that, wealthy.. and keep the hamsters on the wheel... it's hard to sell those "liberal anarchists"on that same dichotomy because they actually see the history of slavery , jim crow, internment camps, fire hose justice, voter suppression and a slew of other human rights violations and just say "f### it , let's try something that actually has a chance to level the playing field a bit,, as you can guess , that's where i reside...
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
although it does keep insurance companies from dictating the policy. another question...

if single payer healthcare(or the option of) is so horrible how come it works more efficiently and with better outcomes in virtually every other 1st world nation?... i'm thinking that insurance companies ought to be a secondary concern to outcome .. but i'd love to hear actual evidence to the contrary...
Didn't you answer the question in the second section with your comment in the first?

Other countries don't have our insurance companies, corporate health care, high malpractice insurance costs/lawyers who get multi-million dollar settlements and greedy drug companies.

I see insurance in all forms as gambling, as do a couple of other cultures. We're betting on needing it, they're betting we won't and they did the math. Then, they hoard unpaid premiums and hide some of it in their fancy new headquarters and defray more by paying dividends, rather than adjusting our premium to reflect the fact that they didn't pay out everything they received, minus expenses. Then, they change the rules along the way and when their policyholders aren't looking, they write exclusions into the policies that have gone unnoticed and people find out the hard way they weren't covered.

But, I digress. I bet the other countries would be more like the US if they had Americans running their health care and insurance industries.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
So I think there are potentially many millions of voters who may be silent Trump voters, and I also think these people are more likely to actually vote than left-leaning people.
This statement stands out to me. The pollsters, once again, shat the bed. GOP voters - especially Trump supporters - probably have a greater tendency to not want to speak with them, leading to an undercounting of their numbers. And, the Democrats have a much larger demographic tent. Trying to make them all happy policy-wise is a difficult - bordering on impossible - task.
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
Didn't you answer the question in the second section with your comment in the first?

Other countries don't have our insurance companies, corporate health care, high malpractice insurance costs/lawyers who get multi-million dollar settlements and greedy drug companies.

I see insurance in all forms as gambling, as do a couple of other cultures. We're betting on needing it, they're betting we won't and they did the math. Then, they hoard unpaid premiums and hide some of it in their fancy new headquarters and defray more by paying dividends, rather than adjusting our premium to reflect the fact that they didn't pay out everything they received, minus expenses. Then, they change the rules along the way and when their policyholders aren't looking, they write exclusions into the policies that have gone unnoticed and people find out the hard way they weren't covered.

But, I digress. I bet the other countries would be more like the US if they had Americans running their health care and insurance industries.
to answer your question.. i reckon i did.. although you were somewhat more eloquent and thorough...
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Didn't you answer the question in the second section with your comment in the first?

Other countries don't have our insurance companies, corporate health care, high malpractice insurance costs/lawyers who get multi-million dollar settlements and greedy drug companies.

I see insurance in all forms as gambling, as do a couple of other cultures. We're betting on needing it, they're betting we won't and they did the math. Then, they hoard unpaid premiums and hide some of it in their fancy new headquarters and defray more by paying dividends, rather than adjusting our premium to reflect the fact that they didn't pay out everything they received, minus expenses. Then, they change the rules along the way and when their policyholders aren't looking, they write exclusions into the policies that have gone unnoticed and people find out the hard way they weren't covered.

But, I digress. I bet the other countries would be more like the US if they had Americans running their health care and insurance industries.
Sounds like you're arguing for a universal health care system. Am I wrong?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Sounds like you're arguing for a universal health care system. Am I wrong?
I was thinking the exact same thing when i read this:
Other countries don't have our insurance companies, corporate health care, high malpractice insurance costs/lawyers who get multi-million dollar settlements and greedy drug companies.
 
L

lp85253

Audioholic Chief
More like deliver nothing hahaha, dont care what party......

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk
there is something to be said for: do the least harm to the most vulnerable and be the least offensive.. policy wise, it's about , imo :what can be done given the philosophy of obstruction... when dems can't get anything done it's often a republican thing and vice versa...you can't imo, blame a president for what congress refuses to put on his desk (see 2010-2016) .. trump used this lesson to great effect with mandates (Obama authored the strategy)....
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
I know it's romantic to think about Bells Labs and the transistor or Unix, but the reality is that internal labs are often slow, ponderous, and highly political. Companies use the external investment model because oftentimes it works best. To paraphrase Andy Grove, only the open-minded and nimble survive.
BTW, an annual income of $300K puts you in the top 5% of wage earners. You're not "upper middle class".

News to me
. Things are worse than I thought. :p

Maybe at one time but since I’ve gone on forced disability it surely doesn’t feel like it now, considering I was 35% of our income, and I’m dreading the day my wife retires also; she’s 4 years younger. With my health issues and the price of health insurance I fear I may be hobbling my wife’s future prospects, especially when she retires. I'm surprised she hasn't fired me yet. :D

This unfounded fear of The New Green Deal, as if it’s Armageddon Time, and that it will devastate the economy, and hence the US, is just fear-mongering.

I completely disagree with the fossil fuel/coal lobby and think it’s a new opportunity for the US to be the leader in this new technology and create new jobs with those very same employees that were affected and displaced. China has currently taking the lead in this field, in this very real existential threat to not only to US but to the whole world, and we need to take that challenge head on as quickly as possible before we're left metaphorically gagging on their fumes.

I have friends and family in the industry and based on my conversations with them I decided to buy a sizable chunk, relative to my savings, of Exxon stock. My nephew is a chemical engineer with Exxon and the company sees the handwriting on the wall and is slowly, if tentatively, transitioning over with acquisitions and R&D into solar technology.

I got grief from both liberal and conservative friends/family when I casually mentioned about my investment, which told me I made the right decision. :)

I know it's romantic to think about Bells Labs and the transistor or Unix, but the reality is that internal labs are often slow, ponderous, and highly political.

Say it ain’t so Irv! :p especially the ‘political’ part.

I’ve seen it first-hand. I spent most of my career with RCA (left soon after the merger with GE) and NEC; probably the most enjoyable job I ever had until the Japanese decided to hand over their US operations to a former IBM VP, who quickly ran the division into the ground with his misguided leadership; another quick-buck artist without any vision or understanding of the telecommunications market, which surprised me, considering he worked for IBM. The US division is now but a mere shell of what it once was.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
This unfounded fear of The New Green Deal, as if it’s Armageddon Time, and that it will devastate the economy, and hence the US, is just fear-mongering.

I completely disagree with the fossil fuel/coal lobby and think it’s a new opportunity for the US to be the leader in this new technology and create new jobs with those very same employees that were affected and displaced. China has currently taking the lead in this field, in this very real existential threat to not only to US but to the whole world, and we need to take that challenge head on as quickly as possible before we're left metaphorically gagging on their fumes.
My point is only that people who work in the oil & gas industry (including fracking, etc) aren't going to see it this way. Nor are the airline industry employees, Boeing employees, GE jet engine employees, other aircraft parts makers, people who do aircraft maintenance, their families, etc. As I think I've posted before, the UAW despises electric vehicles, because they take less labor to build, and the drivetrain assemblies are more suitable to automation. Whether or not green technologies have merit is entirely beside the point; when you're screwing with peoples' livelihoods you're going to get into complicated politics, and we're discussing elections. Also, some green technology experiences are putting a bad taste in peoples' mouths, like the experience many Californians are having with the transition to renewable electrical power sources. A generator company, Generac, stock price can be seen as a proxy for how unreliable California's electric grid has become. (Hint: it's more than doubled in a year.)

IMO, renewable power sources are not going to achieve real impact on the electrical grid until decent electrical storage technologies are available. Batteries on this scale are too expensive or far off. Hydrogen looks interesting...


But hydrogen storage is still many years away from large-scale deployment. I like modular nuclear better:


But I doubt that towering genius of everything green, Ocasio-Cortez (barf) thinks nuclear is ever a viable alternative.
 
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Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
My point is only that people who work in the oil & gas industry (including fracking, etc) aren't going to see it this way. Nor are the airline industry employees, Boeing employees, GE jet engine employees, other aircraft parts makers, people who do aircraft maintenance, their families, etc. As I think I've posted before, the UAW despises electric vehicles, because they take less labor to build, and the drivetrain assemblies are more suitable to automation. Whether or not green technologies have merit is entirely beside the point; when you're screwing with peoples' livelihoods you're going to get into complicated politics, and we're discussing elections. Also, some green technology experiences are putting a bad taste in peoples' mouths, like the experience many Californians are having with the transition to renewable electrical power sources. A generator company, Generac, stock price can be seen as a proxy for how unreliable California's electric grid has become. (Hint: it's more than doubled in a year.)

IMO, renewable power sources are not going to achieve real impact on the electrical grid until decent electrical storage technologies are available. Batteries on this scale are too expensive or far off. Hydrogen looks interesting...


But hydrogen storage is still many years away from large-scale deployment. I like modular nuclear better:


But I doubt that towering genius of everything green, Ocasio-Cortez (barf) thinks nuclear is ever a viable alternative.
There's some tough sledding coming on this issue, no doubt as you stated, but I believe it's inevitable and I'd rather be in the drivers seat, instead of catching a taxi.

Thanks for the links BTW.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Bell Labs was once a great place, in the 1940s and 50s. It was great as long as Bell Telephone was a monopoly. Once that ended, the writing was on the wall, even before Bell Labs faded.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
More like deliver nothing hahaha, dont care what party......

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk
What they really should hammer home to voters is that we have a congress and judiciary that may prevent my wishes to come true. ;) :D
 
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