For the love of god or whoever … VOTE!

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D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
I'd say nothing suprises me about the man, but it's still deeply disturbing. I'm guessing Pfizer wasn't late on production. Trump just didn't care to order more. Then deflect with Operation Warp Speed.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
while we have all been turned off by Trumps stupid 'tweets' it's obvious the Dems got a real knucklehead on their side as well ..........


certainly not the poster child for BLM .........
We should really stop electing dumbasses...or, dumbasses should stop running...

Been a long day, I got nothing else :(
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
We should really stop electing dumbasses...or, dumbasses should stop running...

Been a long day, I got nothing else :(
The changing of funding and advertising of such dumbasses would go a long ways. No one involved appears to care to do this, though. We created a media/political pile of poop.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
while we have all been turned off by Trumps stupid 'tweets' it's obvious the Dems got a real knucklehead on their side as well ..........


certainly not the poster child for BLM .........
And, you have no response against all the threats she has been getting, including phone calls threats of lynching?

Michigan state Rep. Cynthia Johnson receives threatening voicemails calling for lynching - YouTube

Michigan lawmaker who faced death threats punished for warning ‘Trumpers’ in viral video - mlive.com
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
As to the knuckleheaded party, think the GOP has taken this crown for quite a while.....sheeeit that's their target audience!
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Sure I've got a response........ think before you speak !! Given what we(Nation) have been through as of late ANYONE surprised by those responses ?? I'm not, right or wrong it's no surprise.

I was merely pointing out that as bad as Trumpy is there is also plenty garbage on the left
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
lovely, take your rose colored glasses off !
Never wore any. You're the one in bed with the corrupt evangelists, Qanon and the general conspiracy theorists....the conservative part at times can make sense but not overall.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Sure I've got a response........ think before you speak !! Given what we(Nation) have been through as of late ANYONE surprised by those responses ?? I'm not, right or wrong it's no surprise.

I was merely pointing out that as bad as Trumpy is there is also plenty garbage on the left
Guess where it started.
This isn't the level of turning the cheek and give me more threats and abuse.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Sure I've got a response........ think before you speak !! Given what we(Nation) have been through as of late ANYONE surprised by those responses ?? I'm not, right or wrong it's no surprise.

I was merely pointing out that as bad as Trumpy is there is also plenty garbage on the left
There isn't any stench like Trump garbage.
Trump's that once every 100 year president that comes along that reminds you why we value normalcy. All your comparisons of the left only lead to false equivalence. My rec is clean house within the party and start over in 2024.
 
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D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Another way to think about this is there are a few Trump voters out there who know the election isn't rigged and still don't care if he steals it. They hate the left more.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Here's the transcript of a speech Sanders made last January:


It's long rambling diatribe, with a lot of the usual political bluster up front that takes a while to get through, mostly about the toil and nobility of our lowest earners. Some credit-taking for pay raises to $15/hr and above pay rates at Amazon, which had nothing to do with Bernie and everything to do with attracting more motivated employees, and Amazon's compensation includes benefits. Walmart's pay scales are about 25% lower, but they also include benefits. These companies are hiring hundreds of thousands of workers between them, and you won't get what you need on federal minimum wages and no benefits. But Bernie takes credit for it all, ignoring the obvious reality of a free labor market.

But the claiming credit nonsense aside, one of my favorite paragraphs is:

"Even while macroeconomic numbers like GDP, the stock market and the unemployment rate are strong, millions of middle class and working people struggle to keep their heads above water, while the billionaire class consumes the lion’s share of the wealth that we are collectively creating as a nation."

Excuse me Bernie, are you saying that the nation "collectively" creates the wealth and the billionaire class just consumes it? This is profoundly dumb. Jeff Bezos did not "take" $200B from the American "collective", as it if was a pie waiting to be divided up and he got first in line. The US did not collectively create Amazon. Bezos and his company did. He didn't "take" $200B, he created $1.5T in value. If Bezos didn't do it there were others in the line just waiting for an allocated opportunity, so the Sanders premise goes. I've heard this vile bullshit before, that any success created is more due to environment and the common wisdom than to the individual's contributions. Such drivel.

Then Sanders introduces the notion of "unfettered capitalism". This is code for capitalism not bounded by democratic socialist laws and dictums. Mandatory unions, union representation on the boards of directors, pay limits for leaders enforced by heavy taxes based on a ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay, forced benefits to "societal stakeholders". (Don't laugh, Portland, OR implemented an early version.) I can see it now, Bezos can be paid no more than what 100 warehouse workers make without paying onerous taxes. In fact, that's not capitalism at all, it's state-managed companies. Basically, Sanders wants to dictate to companies how they operate for the benefit of The People. I'd say that's a pretty hefty remake of how capitalism works in the US. So from unfettered capitalism, meaning no Bernie content, to what Bernie wants is a form of capitalism just to benefit his political base. Bernie wants state controlled capitalism, and I don't really know what that is. It's a recipe for disaster, since who in their right mind would invest in it? And of course remember, Bernie doesn't know the difference between revenue and profit:


He's mixed up these concepts multiple times in multiple speeches. Just the guy you want to drive a reformation of the US economy. Not.

He goes on to talk about drugs that were developed with "taxpayer funded research". Some research is taxpayer funded, though a lot of university research is funded by industry grants. Telling one part of the story without the other is called a lie of omission. Then he switches gears and proceeds to attack Amazon, calling them a monopoly, which the are provably not in *any* of their businesses. But that lie doesn't bother Bernie. He also says they get $100s of millions of dollars of subsidies to place their facilities (true, from state and local governments trying to bribe Amazon and other companies to set up shop in their districts), and wraps it up by saying Amazon doesn't pay any federal income taxes, which *is* true lately. Amazon is legally using a strategy called loss carryforward, which was cooked up by, wait for it, the US Congress. Amazon and thousands and other companies, very big and very small, take advantage of this loophole.

By the end of this turgid diatribe, Bernie finally gets to the real meat of his philosophies:

What I believe is that the American people deserve freedom – true freedom. Freedom is an often used word but it’s time we took a hard look at what that word actually means. Ask yourself: what does it actually mean to be free?

Are you truly free if you are unable to go to a doctor when you are sick, or face financial bankruptcy when you leave the hospital?

Are you truly free if you cannot afford the prescription drug you need to stay alive?

Are you truly free when you spend half of your limited income on housing, and are forced to borrow money from a payday lender at 200% interest rates.

Are you truly free if you are 70 years old and forced to work because you lack a pension or enough money to retire?

Are you truly free if you are unable to go to attend college or a trade school because your family lacks the income?

Are you truly free if you are forced to work 60 or 80 hours a week because you can’t find a job that pays a living wage?

Are you truly free if you are a mother or father with a new born baby but you are forced to go back to work immediately after the birth because you lack paid family leave?

Are you truly free if you are a small business owner or family farmer who is driven out by the monopolistic practices of big business?

Are you truly free if you are a veteran, who put your life on the line to defend this country, and now sleep out on the streets?

To me, the answer to those questions, in the wealthiest nation on earth, is no, you are not free.

While the Bill of Rights protects us from the tyranny of an oppressive government, many in the establishment would like the American people to submit to the tyranny of oligarchs, multinational corporations, Wall Street banks, and billionaires.

It is time for the American people to stand up and fight for their right to freedom, human dignity and security.

This is the core of what my politics is all about.

In 1944, FDR proposed an economic bill of rights but died a year later and was never able to fulfil that vision. Our job, 75 years later, is to complete what Roosevelt started.

That is why today, I am proposing a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights.

A Bill of Rights that establishes once and for all that every American, regardless of his or her income in entitled to:


  • The right to a decent job that pays a living wage
  • The right to quality health care
  • The right to a complete education
  • The right to affordable housing
  • The right to a clean environment
  • The right to a secure retirement

Okay... a few additions to the Bill of Rights, which would make the US one of the deepest welfare states in the world.




These articles are about implementing meritocracy in corporations, while I was discussing meritocracy in the economy as a whole. I agree that many corporate meritocracies, such as implemented by "Stack Ranking" are flawed in my experience, and they were never intended to take racial or gender inequalities into account.



I'm not defending Trump, I was making a value judgement about Sanders.




You are looking at the Canadian economy with far more granularity than I am, like more frames per second, because you live there. As an outsider, seeing far fewer FPS, the changes look greater to me.
While I might not agree with everything Sanders says, word for word, there is wheat amongst the chaff. You've convinced yourself that everything he says is wrong and stupid. That speech is boilerplate social democrat rhetoric that wouldn't necessarily translate into policy while in office, although I don't doubt that he would have tried to implement at least some of it, had he been elected. While I grant that your views on economics don't begin and end with stock market performance, you seem to be fixated on business to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. Regardless of whether Sanders would be a good president, or not, Trump has proven that he is utterly unqualified - I don't need to go into detail on that, as it is quite obvious - so if Sanders had been the Dems candidate, I would have been forced to vote for him, as I see NO alternative.

Trump should be preparing his defence against the multitude of court cases he is going to be facing. However, there may be method to his demonstrable madness with the quixotic election legal challenges. He's fleecing his base for contributions, supposedly to finance said legal challenges, but more likely to line his and his family's pockets.

It is quite clear that we are not going to see eye-to-eye on this. Fortunately, this discussion is purely academic - neither of them will be president on January 21st. But, I like these discussions, as it's good to see other perspectives on such matters.

These articles are about implementing meritocracy in corporations, while I was discussing meritocracy in the economy as a whole.
While the Atlantic article might primarily concern corporations, the Guardian article looks at meritocracy in society as a whole.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
While I might not agree with everything Sanders says, word for word, there is wheat amongst the chaff. You've convinced yourself that everything he says is wrong and stupid. That speech is boilerplate social democrat rhetoric that wouldn't necessarily translate into policy while in office, although I don't doubt that he would have tried to implement at least some of it, had he been elected. While I grant that your views on economics don't begin and end with stock market performance, you seem to be fixated on business to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. Regardless of whether Sanders would be a good president, or not, Trump has proven that he is utterly unqualified - I don't need to go into detail on that, as it is quite obvious - so if Sanders had been the Dems candidate, I would have been forced to vote for him, as I see NO alternative.
I am fixated on wealth creation. Everything that we can do to improve the economic lives of Americans is based on that. Sanders and his followers seem to believe that the wealth of the nation exists independently of those that create that wealth. That is a flaw in thinking so fundamental that I cannot and will not vote for him for anything. Even the Chinese, with their government-led economy, had learned this lesson, though their methods are issues best discussed in a different thread. Sanders appears to lack even basic knowledge of how the US economy works, and without a healthy economy he would be at the helm of a sinking ship if he had a Congress willing to follow his lead at all. His advocacy for a massive welfare state which chisels away at the concept of private property is not something I can ever vote for. Fortunately in 2016 and in 2020 I didn't have to resort to voting for Trump, so this is a theoretical discussion about a choice that never took place. If you like Sanders so much I wholeheartedly invite y'all to offer him Canadian citizenship. Please do.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Then Sanders introduces the notion of "unfettered capitalism". This is code for capitalism not bounded by democratic socialist laws and dictums. Mandatory unions, union representation on the boards of directors, pay limits for leaders enforced by heavy taxes based on a ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay, forced benefits to "societal stakeholders". (Don't laugh, Portland, OR implemented an early version.) I can see it now, Bezos can be paid no more than what 100 warehouse workers make without paying onerous taxes. In fact, that's not capitalism at all, it's state-managed companies. Basically, Sanders wants to dictate to companies how they operate for the benefit of The People. I'd say that's a pretty hefty remake of how capitalism works in the US. So from unfettered capitalism, meaning no Bernie content, to what Bernie wants is a form of capitalism just to benefit his political base. Bernie wants state controlled capitalism, and I don't really know what that is. It's a recipe for disaster, since who in their right mind would invest in it? And of course remember, Bernie doesn't know the difference between revenue and profit:

By the end of this turgid diatribe, Bernie finally gets to the real meat of his philosophies:

What I believe is that the American people deserve freedom – true freedom. Freedom is an often used word but it’s time we took a hard look at what that word actually means. Ask yourself: what does it actually mean to be free?

Are you truly free if you are unable to go to a doctor when you are sick, or face financial bankruptcy when you leave the hospital?

Are you truly free if you cannot afford the prescription drug you need to stay alive?

Are you truly free when you spend half of your limited income on housing, and are forced to borrow money from a payday lender at 200% interest rates.

Are you truly free if you are 70 years old and forced to work because you lack a pension or enough money to retire?

Are you truly free if you are unable to go to attend college or a trade school because your family lacks the income?

Are you truly free if you are forced to work 60 or 80 hours a week because you can’t find a job that pays a living wage?

Are you truly free if you are a mother or father with a new born baby but you are forced to go back to work immediately after the birth because you lack paid family leave?

Are you truly free if you are a small business owner or family farmer who is driven out by the monopolistic practices of big business?

Are you truly free if you are a veteran, who put your life on the line to defend this country, and now sleep out on the streets?

To me, the answer to those questions, in the wealthiest nation on earth, is no, you are not free.

While the Bill of Rights protects us from the tyranny of an oppressive government, many in the establishment would like the American people to submit to the tyranny of oligarchs, multinational corporations, Wall Street banks, and billionaires.

It is time for the American people to stand up and fight for their right to freedom, human dignity and security.

This is the core of what my politics is all about.

In 1944, FDR proposed an economic bill of rights but died a year later and was never able to fulfil that vision. Our job, 75 years later, is to complete what Roosevelt started.

That is why today, I am proposing a 21st Century Economic Bill of Rights.

A Bill of Rights that establishes once and for all that every American, regardless of his or her income in entitled to:


  • The right to a decent job that pays a living wage
  • The right to quality health care
  • The right to a complete education
  • The right to affordable housing
  • The right to a clean environment
  • The right to a secure retirement
If unions were mandatory, who would monitor their activity and how could they possibly spend all of the money they receive in the form of dues from the members? How could they sell their existence or usefulness to anyone if everyone received the benefits of membership? It says nothing about being better workers and that's a fatal flaw in his thinking

His early life has warped his views of the way life should be- his father wasn't a good provider, he wasn't a good provider and after losing jobs, not being able to pay utility bills and not having usable job skills, he found the only place where he could remain employed- government.

None of his questions about freedom have anything to do with personal freedom- all of it is about financial freedom and that's not what being free means. The question of "How will this financial freedom be provided and who will provide it?" needs to be answered. The only way government could ever pay for this would be through ownership of production, royalties, rights to patents/licensing and taking from those who have more, by law or decree. He wants to level the result of the hard work done by people who had the skills needed to be paid well but never addresses the need for people on the low end to possess/learn skills that make them desirable to employers. If this is his vision of how life should be, he needs to look at and talk to people who have lived under Communism. When a high school classmate of mine was asked how people lived in Communist-ruled Czechoslovakia, he sneered as he replied "We didn't live, we existed".
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I am fixated on wealth creation. Everything that we can do to improve the economic lives of Americans is based on that. Sanders and his followers seem to believe that the wealth of the nation exists independently of those that create that wealth. That is a flaw in thinking so fundamental that I cannot and will not vote for him for anything. Even the Chinese, with their government-led economy, had learned this lesson, though their methods are issues best discussed in a different thread. Sanders appears to lack even basic knowledge of how the US economy works, and without a healthy economy he would be at the helm of a sinking ship if he had a Congress willing to follow his lead at all. His advocacy for a massive welfare state which chisels away at the concept of private property is not something I can ever vote for. Fortunately in 2016 and in 2020 I didn't have to resort to voting for Trump, so this is a theoretical discussion about a choice that never took place. If you like Sanders so much I wholeheartedly invite y'all to offer him Canadian citizenship. Please do.
If he dislikes private property ownership so much, he should lead through example by giving up ownership of his private property.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
If unions were mandatory, who would monitor their activity and how could they possibly spend all of the money they receive in the form of dues from the members? How could they sell their existence or usefulness to anyone if everyone received the benefits of membership? It says nothing about being better workers and that's a fatal flaw in his thinking

His early life has warped his views of the way life should be- his father wasn't a good provider, he wasn't a good provider and after losing jobs, not being able to pay utility bills and not having usable job skills, he found the only place where he could remain employed- government.

None of his questions about freedom have anything to do with personal freedom- all of it is about financial freedom and that's not what being free means. The question of "How will this financial freedom be provided and who will provide it?" needs to be answered. The only way government could ever pay for this would be through ownership of production, royalties, rights to patents/licensing and taking from those who have more, by law or decree. He wants to level the result of the hard work done by people who had the skills needed to be paid well but never addresses the need for people on the low end to possess/learn skills that make them desirable to employers. If this is his vision of how life should be, he needs to look at and talk to people who have lived under Communism. When a high school classmate of mine was asked how people lived in Communist-ruled Czechoslovakia, he sneered as he replied "We didn't live, we existed".
A very interesting perspective.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
A very interesting perspective.
I remember the ads telling people to "Look for the Union label" when I was a kid and then, after my dad joined one, I remember him not working for months, with little income, because of a strike. Not long after that, I worked for a lumber company and those of us who weren't members of the Teamsters Union found ourselves laid off because of a strike. My dad had many comments about the work ethic of people where he worked and they weren't good. I later worked for an AV/networking integration contractor and as we waited for the union trades to leave a job site so we could do our work, we were taunted and some of the workers would loudly tell others to make sure their tools were locked up so "the scabs" wouldn't steal them. While that didn't happen on all jobs where we mixed with union workers, it wasn't the only time.

I understand why unions exist but if the employees aren't being abused & taken advantage of or put into dangerous situations without any option for declining the work without retribution, being forced to join shouldn't be allowed, IMO. While I applaud the ongoing training that's often provided by unions, I can't say that every union member I have worked alongside of did a great job. Granted, I have worked with tradespeople and there are many other kinds of work that's covered by unions, but I have also heard complaints about the mandatory payments and lack of benefit from it.

I also don't believe that unions should be able to strong-arm a business into paying wage and benefit increases to people who already make far more than most- the UAW did this for decades and look at the build quality of American cars of the time before imports kicked their collective asses. I have worked with people in the building trades for decades and would like to have photographed some of the terrible workmanship I encountered.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
You counted them? You must have a fragile Trumpist ego issue(s).
Still more insults, no value added. This is a pattern with you. I'm not a medical professional, but I strongly recommend seeing a psychiatrist.
 
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