For the love of god or whoever … VOTE!

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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Be careful Irv, you or I may come over to the dark side and start agreeing on some things. :D

You speak heresy sir. :p

This is exactly what I'm looking for in the US discourse. An exchange of ideas, compromise and implementation. If it doesn't work, re-evaluate why and try again. I'm just frustrated that both parties are 'locked in' and we're just spinning our wheels and important domestic issues (climate crisis, infrastructure, health care, etc.) go unattended.

I'm tired of being two or three steps behind obvious problems, with a finger up our posterior.
That's why I'm an independent. For example, I am pissed at both parties for not renewing the unemployment insurance extension and another stimulus check. A lot of people are suffering for reasons they're nearly powerless to remedy, and it would be nice to see funds going to people who need it desperately, rather than tax cuts for hedge fund managers and real estate developers. On the other hand, I'm not in the mood for bailing out some really irresponsible state and local governments, like in CA and OR, two states I used to reside in. Both annoy me with their policies. Oregon especially. However, Pelosi and McConnell should have figured something out. I'm ashamed of them both.

I agree with your point on domestic issues. Squared. But you know that.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
That's why I'm an independent. For example, I am pissed at both parties for not renewing the unemployment insurance extension and another stimulus check. A lot of people are suffering for reasons they're nearly powerless to remedy, and it would be nice to see funds going to people who need it desperately, rather than tax cuts for hedge fund managers and real estate developers. On the other hand, I'm not in the mood for bailing out some really irresponsible state and local governments, like in CA and OR, two states I used to reside in. Both annoy me with their policies. Oregon especially. However, Pelosi and McConnell should have figured something out. I'm ashamed of them both.

I agree with your point on domestic issues. Squared. But you know that.
Well, one side has been holding up the bills since May because they wanted less of a stimulus and more tax incentives like 3 Martini lunch deductions. Don't think the Dems wanted that.
Then, the question is who gives up the most and why are they talking so close to the cut off cycle? Politics?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Well, one side has been holding up the bills since May because they wanted less of a stimulus and more tax incentives like 3 Martini lunch deductions. Don't think the Dems wanted that.
Then, the question is who gives up the most and why are they talking so close to the cut off cycle? Politics?
The business meal deduction crap was put in a separate bill, because even some GOP senators thought it was stupid. It is stupid, and no way it passes. Trump was pushing it. Sometimes politicians make me yearn for a benevolent dictator, at least for a few minutes.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The business meal deduction crap was put in a separate bill, because even some GOP senators thought it was stupid. It is stupid, and no way it passes. Trump was pushing it. Sometimes politicians make me yearn for a benevolent dictator, at least for a few minutes.
I thought drumphy was the republican idea of a "benevolent" dictator? It seems that was in drumphy's mind all along....at least the dictator part.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
That's why I'm an independent. For example, I am pissed at both parties for not renewing the unemployment insurance extension and another stimulus check. A lot of people are suffering for reasons they're nearly powerless to remedy, and it would be nice to see funds going to people who need it desperately, rather than tax cuts for hedge fund managers and real estate developers. On the other hand, I'm not in the mood for bailing out some really irresponsible state and local governments, like in CA and OR, two states I used to reside in. Both annoy me with their policies. Oregon especially. However, Pelosi and McConnell should have figured something out. I'm ashamed of them both.

I agree with your point on domestic issues. Squared. But you know that.
Like you Irv I’ve been a registered Independent for the last 40 years but after the last 12 years I’ve heard and seen enough.

First with Mitch McConnell’s Republican Party of ‘NO’, after the Great Recession of 2008, to hobble Obama, and then their craven indifference or denial of science, and by extension the virus/climate change, and DJT’s handling of it.

Pile on their cowardice and enablement to Trump’s attempts to dismantle not only democracy in this country but his kowtowing to Putin, and other authoritarian leaders, is shameful. Their silence while he attempted, and succeeded in some instances, to tear up long-standing alliances and new treaties, per se … NATO, Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement, the abandonment of the Kurds, the Paris Climate Agreement, Iranian Nuclear Deal and on & on … in the last 4 years completely disgusts me.

They will say or do anything to hold onto power, in the face of Trump’s blatant nepotism, racism, corruption and political malpractice the last 4 years and their current silence towards the election of president-elect Biden, by ‘amusing him’ with his untrue claims of a ‘rigged’ election, is an assault on democracy itself. Trump doesn’t need Russian trolls to spread disinformation for him; the Republicans are doing a bang-up job all by their lonesome, doing it for him.
https://a.msn.com/r/2/BB1bGJXf?m=en-us&referrerID=InAppShare

As I stated, I’ve seen enough, and as soon as it’s safe to do so I’m changing my registration to Democrat. I have a high tolerance for political bull$hit but their laying over and playing dead to DJT’s dangerous decisions for our country is and was the final straw for me.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
That's why I'm an independent. For example, I am pissed at both parties for not renewing the unemployment insurance extension and another stimulus check. A lot of people are suffering for reasons they're nearly powerless to remedy, and it would be nice to see funds going to people who need it desperately, rather than tax cuts for hedge fund managers and real estate developers. On the other hand, I'm not in the mood for bailing out some really irresponsible state and local governments, like in CA and OR, two states I used to reside in. Both annoy me with their policies. Oregon especially. However, Pelosi and McConnell should have figured something out. I'm ashamed of them both.

I agree with your point on domestic issues. Squared. But you know that.
And then, Captain Obvious (Biden) came out and said the economy is faltering. That was just brilliant. Really. Shut down the country and come out to say the economy is faltering. The next four years will be interesting.

Pelosi said that a $900 Billion plan is a compromise and that she wanted it to be hundreds of millions more. They really are playing with Monopoly money- or, they might be looking at it as OPM (Other Peoples' Money).
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Field Marshall
And then, Captain Obvious (Biden) came out and said the economy is faltering. That was just brilliant. Really. Shut down the country and come out to say the economy is faltering. The next four years will be interesting.

Pelosi said that a $900 Billion plan is a compromise and that she wanted it to be hundreds of millions more. They really are playing with Monopoly money- or, they might be looking at it as OPM (Other Peoples' Money).
The Democrats wanted to offset the hardship of the shutdowns due to the deadly pandemic with economic aid, and that is expensive. Are you arguing that there shouldn't be any shutdowns or any aid?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
The Democrats wanted to offset the hardship of the shutdowns due to the deadly pandemic with economic aid, and that is expensive. Are you arguing that there shouldn't be any shutdowns or any aid?
No, not saying that at all- I just don't like the posturing. OTOH, I don't like the resistance "because it goes against our principles" comments used by McConnell and others. Neither party has our approval- it has only been above 30% for two months this year and dipped to 17% in October.

I can only imagine this country if Congress would actually achieve 50%, using the same criteria......

 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Like you Irv I’ve been a registered Independent for the last 40 years but after the last 12 years I’ve heard and seen enough.

First with Mitch McConnell’s Republican Party of ‘NO’, after the Great Recession of 2008, to hobble Obama, and then their craven indifference or denial of science, and by extension the virus/climate change, and DJT’s handling of it.

Pile on their cowardice and enablement to Trump’s attempts to dismantle not only democracy in this country but his kowtowing to Putin, and other authoritarian leaders, is shameful. Their silence while he attempted, and succeeded in some instances, to tear up long-standing alliances and new treaties, per se … NATO, Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement, the abandonment of the Kurds, the Paris Climate Agreement, Iranian Nuclear Deal and on & on … in the last 4 years completely disgusts me.

They will say or do anything to hold onto power, in the face of Trump’s blatant nepotism, racism, corruption and political malpractice the last 4 years and their current silence towards the election of president-elect Biden, by ‘amusing him’ with his untrue claims of a ‘rigged’ election, is an assault on democracy itself. Trump doesn’t need Russian trolls to spread disinformation for him; the Republicans are doing a bang-up job all by their lonesome, doing it for him.
https://a.msn.com/r/2/BB1bGJXf?m=en-us&referrerID=InAppShare

As I stated, I’ve seen enough, and as soon as it’s safe to do so I’m changing my registration to Democrat. I have a high tolerance for political bull$hit but their laying over and playing dead to DJT’s dangerous decisions for our country is and was the final straw for me.
As I mentioned previously, I vote for candidates, not parties, so I usually register as a Democrat or a Republican to vote in primaries. Neither party pleases me, though over the past 40 years or so I think I've voted Democratic more often than Republican, counting all partisan elections. IMO, both parties are missing out on a huge opportunity to move closer to the political center, because that's where I believe most voters are. But no, they're both taking daily stupid pills. The Republicans and the Democratic Socialists seem to be on a 4/day regimen.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
And then, Captain Obvious (Biden) came out and said the economy is faltering. That was just brilliant. Really. Shut down the country and come out to say the economy is faltering. The next four years will be interesting.
You are listening to fear-mongering mis-information from right wing media sources,
Biden's team has publicly declared that they will not shut down the country. They are considering a mask mandate, which is central to what I consider the big WTF? in all of this. Wearing masks is easy! Why is it being touted as such a travesty of individual freedom (aside from the president of the US undermining it)?


Have we lost sight that experts can come up with a phased sequence of countermeasures to incrementally implement or relax depending on the specific conditions for each region and it is not an "all or none" shutting down of the national economy? That is the sane response I would have expected of any president - yes I even expected it from Trump (more fool me)!
By having a phased countermeasure approach, the frequency of total shutdowns should be reduced to only certain regions for a limited length of time.
Unfortunately, the time where this would be of the greatest benefit is NOW (and previous months) which is on Trump's watch and he has committed to selling the narrative that we must choose between health and economy when the reality is managing the health in an incremental manner has the best long-term outcome for the economy!

I just checked and it looks as if hospitalizations in your area are shrinking! Nice to see some movement in the right direction! What do you think has contributed most to that? Did Milwaukee have shutdowns, or some other public policy, or a public awareness initiative?

Aside: From the Forbes article above, here is a quote to provide some perspective on how soon we can expect the vaccine to bail us out:
Dr. Carlos del Rio, executive associate dean of Emory University School of Medicine, told CNN the model projects 66,000 lives could be saved if all Americans wear masks for the first 100 days of the Biden presidency, as President-elect Biden has urged, whereas vaccines are likely to save just 10,000 to 11,000 American lives by April 1.
Of course, it is safe to say that the vaccine will surpass mask wearing over time, but it is up to us to keep the numbers down until (presumably) early April, after which, the vaccine can carry us!
 
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pcosmic

pcosmic

Senior Audioholic
Lol, turn on your subwoofer! Somedays, i think the rest of the world may deem my home town to be one giant fcking trailer park.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
As I mentioned previously, I vote for candidates, not parties, so I usually register as a Democrat or a Republican to vote in primaries. Neither party pleases me, though over the past 40 years or so I think I've voted Democratic more often than Republican, counting all partisan elections. IMO, both parties are missing out on a huge opportunity to move closer to the political center, because that's where I believe most voters are. But no, they're both taking daily stupid pills. The Republicans and the Democratic Socialists seem to be on a 4/day regimen.
Well let me know when the party gets started Irv. I’ll be there with bells on.

That’s why I became a registered Independent too but not enough of my fellow citizens agreed. They keep re-electing the same corrupt morons, who are more interested in fund-raising & pork, than governing and getting things accomplished for a majority of the people. Lobbyists have always had more influence than we do in this country; like most of the world, not just here.

If you haven’t heard, we centrists are a dying breed. I’ve repeatedly been reminded of that by both people on the far right and left. Most people walk into that voting booth, if they vote at all, clueless of the issues/candidate and vote for one party or the other, out of sheer habit.

I’ve been calling for a third party it seems well … forever … with friends & family and here on this site, and here I am … still waiting. I ain’t holding my breath.

The only way to wean them off the stupid pills is a good purgative. We need to expel them from the Senate and Congress one by one, and by getting rid of the Electoral College and gerrymandering and going back to a 60%, or possibly 70%, Senate vote rule for entry into the SCOTUS.

You’re basically asking both houses of government and the SCOTUS to commit hari-kari, combined with our willing or unwilling acceptance, over the last century, of an imperial presidency, the very thing our founding fathers fought and warned against, and your odds get harder exponentially.
 
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D

Dude#1279435

Senior Audioholic
Biden's team has publicly declared that they will not shut down the country. They are considering a mask mandate, which is central to what I consider the big WTF? in all of this. Wearing masks is easy! Why is it being touted as such a travesty of individual freedom (aside from the president of the US undermining it)?
Because if the guy at the top sets the tone, the rest follow. (Though I'm not sure if the obvious needed to be answered. No pun intended.) Silence is a deadly killer though and it needs to be reminded that it isn't just Trump to blame. The media was all over Hillary and benghazi, and now they have far more blood on their hands because they set the tone with their position. Ironic how everything they've said Hillary and Obama were they've managed to be worse.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Senior Audioholic
Another thought I have is if the two party's move closer to the center than it's blurring the lines. There's this sorta need to be the polar opposite. However, what's sad is the Republicans, even if they didn't want to shutdown everything, they could've still taken the position of advocating wearing masks. I'm sure it's silly to think a stadium full of masks would work, but I'd have given them a weee bit of credit. Ultimately they're hypocritical for being against abortion but not setting the tone for wearing masks. I feel like history repeats itself: you elect a terrible human being to rule. They take down the party with them. Trump's base hates the left more than what he's doing. Alas "going down in flames."
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
You are listening to fear-mongering mis-information from right wing media sources,
Biden's team has publicly declared that they will not shut down the country. They are considering a mask mandate, which is central to what I consider the big WTF? in all of this. Wearing masks is easy! Why is it being touted as such a travesty of individual freedom (aside from the president of the US undermining it)?


Have we lost sight that experts can come up with a phased sequence of countermeasures to incrementally implement or relax depending on the specific conditions for each region and it is not an "all or none" shutting down of the national economy? That is the sane response I would have expected of any president - yes I even expected it from Trump (more fool me)!
By having a phased countermeasure approach, the frequency of total shutdowns should be reduced to only certain regions for a limited length of time.
Unfortunately, the time where this would be of the greatest benefit is NOW (and previous months) which is on Trump's watch and he has committed to selling the narrative that we must choose between health and economy when the reality is managing the health in an incremental manner has the best long-term outcome for the economy!

I just checked and it looks as if hospitalizations in your area are shrinking! Nice to see some movement in the right direction! What do you think has contributed most to that? Did Milwaukee have shutdowns, or some other public policy, or a public awareness initiative?

Aside: From the Forbes article above, here is a quote to provide some perspective on how soon we can expect the vaccine to bail us out:

Of course, it is safe to say that the vaccine will surpass mask wearing over time, but it is up to us to keep the numbers down until (presumably) early April, after which, the vaccine can carry us!
I watched the video and I never said anything about him shutting down the country, although he has said he would if scientists advised him to, in an interview with David Muir. He walked that back a couple of weeks later and clarified his remark. I'm not in the camp of "He said it, that means he'll do it" because he was campaigning at the time and we all know that during campaigns, they say all kinds of poop.

I posted that comment because he didn't need to say it- people aren't working, companies are closed- how the eff could the economy not be faltering?

I have to think that, along with wearing masks for the first 100 days, it means people will be told, AGAIN, to stay home if they think they have symptoms, have been exposed or have traveled. Asking them to think about their possible exposure would require them to remember where they were the week before, so that's not likely to happen considering the collective short attention span of the general population.

I have seen a lot of videos of people demanding that the economy re-open immediately and the most frequent comments are about being tired of being cooped up at home and without human contact. OK, I understand that some people need constant interaction, but this could be used as a time for people to get to know themselves- I know people who have said that they don't like to be alone, blaming their mothers for not being there during childhood. I think they NEED to find a way to cope with it, rather than drinking, doing drugs, overeating and engaging in self-destructive behavior. This is a great time to get a hobby, finish things that were started, learn new skills. Free time is plentiful- take advantage of it.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Well let me know when the party gets started Irv. I’ll be there with bells on.

That’s why I became a registered Independent too but not enough of my fellow citizens agreed. They keep re-electing the same corrupt morons, who are more interested in fund-raising & pork, than governing and getting things accomplished for a majority of the people. Lobbyists have always had more influence than we do in this country; like most of the world, not just here.

If you haven’t heard, we centrists are a dying breed. I’ve repeatedly been reminded of that by both people on the far right and left. Most people walk into that voting booth, if they vote at all, clueless of the issues/candidate and vote for one party or the other, out of sheer habit.

I’ve been calling for a third party it seems well … forever … with friends & family and here on this site, and here I am … still waiting. I ain’t holding my breath.

The only way to wean them off the stupid pills is a good purgative. We need to expel them from the Senate and Congress one by one, and by getting rid of the Electoral College and gerrymandering and going back to a 60%, or possibly 70%, Senate vote rule for entry into the SCOTUS.

You’re basically asking both houses of government and the SCOTUS to commit hari-kari, combined with our willing or unwilling acceptance, over the last century, of an imperial presidency, the very thing our founding fathers fought and warned against, and your odds get harder exponentially.
I would be OK with the parties we have if they would yank their heads out of their asses.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
I would be OK with the parties we have if they would yank their heads out of their asses.
I believe that’s just wishful thinking.

They have no incentive to do so, unless they see the tide turning against them or the money dries up. And neither has happened yet, for both parties.

The Republicans got a scare in the mid-term elections of 2018 but they have to be breathing a sigh of relief after this last election. I imagine privately they thought that Trump would drag them down and it didn’t happen.

This will just embolden them to hue the party line, even more so. Partisanship on both sides I believe will only get worse.

I hope I’m wrong.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I've only been alarmist once that I remember, and it wasn't about socialism per se, it was specifically about US democratic socialism. It was when I thought that Bernie Sanders might become the Democratic presidential candidate, and I would actually be forced to vote for Trump. That was an alarming thought. The rest of the time I've just been in disagreement, however vocal.

I fully admit, I am a strong advocate of capitalism and a market economy, albeit with appropriate "guard rails" for protecting the environment, equality, fiduciary responsibility, product safety, and some other factors for defending the public good. I am also an advocate of financial meritocracy, and I think that system works famously. (Don't confuse support of meritocracy with our inane tax system that values wages less than other income. I did that rant before.) Nonetheless, I think there are things that can be well done by governments, though I'd rather not distract this post with those right now.

The economic success of some countries you mention are not, IMO, the result of their socialistic policies, they are usually the result of their capitalist policies, or other factors, like mineral wealth. Canada and Australia have become more capitalistic over time, and both are especially proud of their recent high technology achievements, mostly done by start-ups. The world's only production quantum computer, for example, is designed and built in Vancouver. Sweden is home to important telecom and engineering companies. Norway is more socialistic, but it has a multi-trillion dollar sovereign wealth fund from oil. Isn't it odd that France and Italy are both so well known for luxury products made by corporations aimed at the rich, when both of those countries seem to despise rich people, and have previously tried to nearly tax them out of existence? But here's a better question... why is Europe still quite secondary to the US, when it has more people by far? And all of these countries get to benefit financially from the US security umbrella? Their children are arguably better educated. They have more equitable health care. They live longer (in general). It is an interesting question.

Regarding monopolies... they used to be different. They actually did dominate necessities. Is Google a monopoly like that? Nope. Not even close. I use Bing all the time because I own more Microsoft stock than Google stock, and it works just fine. So does Yahoo. Is Amazon a monopoly? No way. Walmart? Not nearly. These are just companies that have become extremely rich, and a bunch of politicians think that they have power they don't. How many here really care about Facebook? Not me. Intel? How the mighty have fallen. Do these companies occasionally do some things that reduce competition or raise prices? Yeah, but it's not like Standard Oil was way back when. I think our politicians are just looking for something to do except actually govern and improve our lives.

I like getting richer from other peoples' genius. That's why I like capitalism.
Irv, after reading this post, I knew I needed to respond, but I figured I would give it a couple of days. You and I agree on some things and disagree on others, but I don't think there's a huge gulf between us.

So, you were alarmed at the possibility of Bernie Sanders becoming the Democratic Presidential candidate. And, you would have been "forced" to vote for Trump if that had come to pass. I have to say that I find that alarming. Despite Trump's intellectual, temperamental and ethical/moral shortcomings; his avarice, mendacity, capriciousness, venality and narcissism - in other words, complete and utter incompetence - you would still not be willing to give Sanders a chance? I'm not saying that I think the sun shines out Bernie's back passage, but he could NOT possibly be less competent than Trump. There's far more to presidenting than having the stock markets rise on his/her watch.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I'll mention once more that a significant number of German Jews supported Hitler's rise to power because they hated communists and "foreigners" more than they feared what might happen to them when the Nazis gained control of the government. They eventually realized - too late - what a Faustian Bargain they had made. (In no way am I calling you a Nazi! It's just the analogy that comes to mind)

As for Canada and Australia, I don't think we and they are any more, or less, capitalist than in the past. I'm not sure what data you refer to to give you that impression. I certainly support capitalism as the best economic system, which has unquestionably increased the overall standard of living in western developed countries. I just believe that in exchange for permitting that kind of system to operate, our society as a whole must benefit from its advantages (not just its primary participants) and protected from its excesses. I get that you are in general agreement with those principals, but we may differ on the finer points.

Has the West benefited from the American nuclear umbrella? Unquestionably. But, it's a 2-way street. If the US had simply gone back to isolationism after WW2, allowing the USSR and China to run amok, it would be awfully lonely in America.

That's just my perspective. I don't expect you to suddenly become a Bernie-bro. ;)
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Field Marshall
...
Has the West benefited from the American nuclear umbrella? Unquestionably. But, it's a 2-way street. If the US had simply gone back to isolationism after WW2, allowing the USSR and China to run amok, it would be awfully lonely in America.
...
I don't think that the founding members of NATO saw it as a US protection racket scheme but as a vital part to preserve and expand democracy and liberty of what we call the Western world at that time. Your own country, Canada, was a founding member of NATO. As was mine: Norway. The other Nordic countries Denmark and Iceland are founding members, while Sweden and Finland was not. Finland had and has special issues with Sovietunion/Russia. Sweden is Sweden :rolleyes:
 
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