For the love of god or whoever … VOTE!

[GO-NAD!]

I am fixated on wealth creation. Everything that we can do to improve the economic lives of Americans is based on that. Sanders and his followers seem to believe that the wealth of the nation exists independently of those that create that wealth. That is a flaw in thinking so fundamental that I cannot and will not vote for him for anything. Even the Chinese, with their government-led economy, had learned this lesson, though their methods are issues best discussed in a different thread. Sanders appears to lack even basic knowledge of how the US economy works, and without a healthy economy he would be at the helm of a sinking ship if he had a Congress willing to follow his lead at all. His advocacy for a massive welfare state which chisels away at the concept of private property is not something I can ever vote for. Fortunately in 2016 and in 2020 I didn't have to resort to voting for Trump, so this is a theoretical discussion about a choice that never took place. If you like Sanders so much I wholeheartedly invite y'all to offer him Canadian citizenship. Please do.

I certainly don't have anything against wealth creation. If "Everything that we can do to improve the economic lives of Americans is based on that" is meant to imply that trickle-down economics can achieve that goal, colour me skeptical.

And, if you think that my argument is an endorsement of Sanders, you've misinterpreted my statements. What I thought I'd made quite clear, is that Trump should under no circumstances EVER have been considered a better candidate than pretty much anyone who ran for the nomination of either party, in 2016 or 2020. For all his self-promotion as a successful businessman, I'm not sure his comprehension of economics is much better than Sanders. The fact that 70+ million people voted for him is mind-boggling.

To quote former speech-writer for George W. Bush: “The worst human being ever to enter the presidency, and I include all the slaveholders”.

At this point, you shouldn't really care where Sanders lives, as he will never be president.

I think we should now drop this discussion, as we've both made our thoughts perfectly clear on the topic.

 

[Trell]

While I might not agree with everything Sanders says, word for word, there is wheat amongst the chaff. You've convinced yourself that everything he says is wrong and stupid. That speech is boilerplate social democrat rhetoric that wouldn't necessarily translate into policy while in office, although I don't doubt that he would have tried to implement at least some of it, had he been elected. While I grant that your views on economics don't begin and end with stock market performance, you seem to be fixated on business to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. Regardless of whether Sanders would be a good president, or not, Trump has proven that he is utterly unqualified - I don't need to go into detail on that, as it is quite obvious - so if Sanders had been the Dems candidate, I would have been forced to vote for him, as I see NO alternative.

Trump should be preparing his defence against the multitude of court cases he is going to be facing. However, there may be method to his demonstrable madness with the quixotic election legal challenges. He's fleecing his base for contributions, supposedly to finance said legal challenges, but more likely to line his and his family's pockets.

It is quite clear that we are not going to see eye-to-eye on this. Fortunately, this discussion is purely academic - neither of them will be president on January 21st. But, I like these discussions, as it's good to see other perspectives on such matters.



While the Atlantic article might primarily concern corporations, the Guardian article looks at meritocracy in society as a whole.

Irv is a narrow minded bullshitter that is immune to any facts contradicting his very uninformed conservative views, and of course, cherry picking.

 

[Trell]

Still more insults, no value added. This is a pattern with you. I'm not a medical professional, but I strongly recommend seeing a psychiatrist.

Yes, let your inner Trump grow and expand! Tell us more about your fine plans about making the world pure and white, in mind as well as body!

You really are repeating that autocrat play book of the worst dictatorships in history, but then you are pretty ignornat about this.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I certainly don't have anything against wealth creation. If "Everything that we can do to improve the economic lives of Americans is based on that" is meant to imply that trickle-down economics can achieve that goal, colour me skeptical.

I was not talking about trickle-down economics; it is not a theory I support.

 

[Swerd]

At this point, you shouldn't really care where Sanders lives, as he will never be president.

I think we should now drop this discussion, as we've both made our thoughts perfectly clear on the topic.

I agree with GO-NAD. Enough already!

I'm not a site moderator, but I've gotten quite tired with this endless bickering. It's time to drop it.

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL saying that drumphy was never qualified is an understatement, much like his "success" in business which is non existent for the most part....

 

[TankTop5]

English is not my native tongue. I think that most, if not all, current G.O.P. members of Congress should be voted out of office, for the sake of US democracy.

You do realize that statement is the opposite of democracy?

 

[TankTop5]

LOL saying that drumphy was never qualified is an understatement, much like his "success" in business which is non existent for the most part....

By that rationale neither was Obama, that said I’m a fan of unqualified politicians. Lifetime professional politicians were never the plan for America.

 

[lovinthehd]

You do realize that statement is the opposite of democracy?

How so if they're voted out?

 

[lovinthehd]

By that rationale neither was Obama, that said I’m a fan of unqualified politicians. Lifetime professional politicians were never the plan for America.

No Obama had far more qualifications, no question. Drumph is at best a reality tv host.

 

[TankTop5]

How so if they're voted out?

Well for one we’re a representative republic and a two party system, not that I’m a fan of the two party system but a one party system is definitely not on my list of things I would consider good for America.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I agree with GO-NAD. Enough already!

I'm not a site moderator, but I've gotten quite tired with this endless bickering. It's time to drop it.

GO-NAD! and I were not bickering, we were having a reasonable discussion. Trell and I were trading insults, because, well, that's how every discussion is Trell has with someone he disagrees with, and I'm occasionally bored enough to respond.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well for one we’re a representative republic and a two party system, not that I’m a fan of the two party system but a one party system is definitely not on my list of things I would consider good for America.

It is a shame we're stuck with these two parties divvying up the pie between themselves. Reform is needed in many ways. If one party doesn't do what it needs to do, though, it could get voted out but with the crazy coalition of wacko supporters of the republicans these days that's not too likely judging by how many voted for drumph despite what a disaster he is. But it could be very good for America to get rid of these conspiracy theory touting, Qanon supporting, fake news supporting and lying republicans. If everyone just supported Democrats instead, that has its own issues.

 

[Trell]

You do realize that statement is the opposite of democracy?

You do understand that "voting someone out of office" is one the the tenets of democracy to hold someone accountable?

Here it is: I wish the current Congressional GOP was voted out of office (voters decide themselves, they vote, get it?). Contrast that to Trump and allies trying to extralegally overturn a fair and free election. If you don't understand what I mean, please say so.

 

[Trell]

GO-NAD! and I were not bickering, we were having a reasonable discussion. Trell and I were trading insults, because, well, that's how every discussion is Trell has with someone he disagrees with, and I'm occasionally bored enough to respond.

GO-NAD was apologizing and making clear that he indeed support of "wealth creation", which of course, thinking members knows that is the case. Similar was the apologizing of not being American in earlier threads when some members posted some xenophobic posts (you included). As I wrote then: I find it offensive that members have to defend themselves in this manner to these kinds of attacks against foreigners, just because they are foreigners.

 

[Trell]

If unions were mandatory, who would monitor their activity and how could they possibly spend all of the money they receive in the form of dues from the members? How could they sell their existence or usefulness to anyone if everyone received the benefits of membership? It says nothing about being better workers and that's a fatal flaw in his thinking

His early life has warped his views of the way life should be- his father wasn't a good provider, he wasn't a good provider and after losing jobs, not being able to pay utility bills and not having usable job skills, he found the only place where he could remain employed- government.

None of his questions about freedom have anything to do with personal freedom- all of it is about financial freedom and that's not what being free means. The question of "How will this financial freedom be provided and who will provide it?" needs to be answered. The only way government could ever pay for this would be through ownership of production, royalties, rights to patents/licensing and taking from those who have more, by law or decree. He wants to level the result of the hard work done by people who had the skills needed to be paid well but never addresses the need for people on the low end to possess/learn skills that make them desirable to employers. If this is his vision of how life should be, he needs to look at and talk to people who have lived under Communism. When a high school classmate of mine was asked how people lived in Communist-ruled Czechoslovakia, he sneered as he replied "We didn't live, we existed".

Mandatory union membership is a straw man. Historically unions have been a force of good for democracy, with some caveats.

Anyone that believes that a lowly cleaner has a stronger negotiation position on her own is off his rocker.

 

[Trell]

Well for one we’re a representative republic and a two party system, not that I’m a fan of the two party system but a one party system is definitely not on my list of things I would consider good for America.

What? USA is a democratic Republic (yes, Irv disagrees and thinks this is some socialist concoction) and voting is one of the tenets of our democracies. That USA has a de-facto two party system that you can change yourselves, like, say, approve of ranked choice voting?

 

[John Parks]

The first two minutes of this is pure comedy gold. Sadly though, even though it is satire, it is pretty much spot on as to what will happen...

 

[Irvrobinson]

What? USA is a democratic Republic (yes, Irv disagrees and thinks this is some socialist concoction) and voting is one of the tenets of our democracies. That USA has a de-facto two party system that you can change yourselves, like, say, approve of ranked choice voting?

Dad! Trell is picking on me again!

Trell, enough. Shut the f!ck up.

 

[Trell]

Dad! Trell is picking on me again!

Trell, enough. Shut the f!ck up.

You're really are a fragile snowflake, aren't you?