Electric Vehicles?

[Swerd]

… Back to the original topic, searching for an electric car.

Yesterday, I drove a Volvo C40. It's a small SUV or Crossover UV that seems to compete with the Tesla Model Y. I liked it about the same as the Model Y. The C40 is slightly smaller, with a little less interior room than the Tesla Y. Getting in & out of the front seat was good, but the entry for the rear seats has not enough head room for me. The roof line on the C40 slopes down as you look further back from cabin center to account for that. To me it's roof line/rear hatch resemble a hatchback where the hatch has a noticeable slope forward.

I also looked at but didn't drive a Volvo XC40. It shares the same batteries, electric motors, and chassis as the C40. It's roof line is essentially flat, more like a typical SUV. The rear hatch angles slightly forward, but not so much as the C40. The rear passenger headroom and rear cargo space are larger. Both cars are similarly priced.

The driver interface, or car/computer operating system, on both the C40 & XC40, was straight forward and not an obstacle to learn. It made use of a more typical looking dashboard plus a 9.5" center screen. So it was more traditional car-like than the Tesla which has only a large 15" center screen and no other display at all. After test drives in both cars, I don't see a problem with using either one. I found both cars easy to park in my somewhat tight garage. Both have a good turning radius, and their outside camera/sensors help out quite a lot with getting through the garage door without a problem.

Both the Volvos and the Tesla has the same battery capacity, 75 kWh, and dual electric motors with AWD. But the Tesla's driving range is said to be 325 miles, and the Volvos are about 225 miles. I guess the Volvos are heavier vehicles than the Tesla. Is the Tesla made with more plastic? Interestingly, the Volvos are significantly cheaper than the Tesla. The batteries and electric motors are similar, so I believe the Tesla is overpriced.

It will come down which cars are eligible for the $7,500 Federal EV Tax rebate. The details of that are complex and I won't go into them all here (maybe in another thread). Read it for yourself here:

Here's every electric vehicle that qualifies for the current and upcoming US federal tax credit

As sales of electric vehicles continue to surge, many new and prospective customers have questions about qualifying for federal tax...

electrek.co

The old rebate which expires at the end of 2022 provided a rebate for the Volvos, but not for the Tesla, because Volvo had not yet sold 200,000 cars and Tesla has. After 1 Jan 2023, when the new law takes effect, Volvo becomes ineligible for the rebate because not enough of it is made In the USA. And Tesla becomes eligible again despite the 200,000 car cap, because it is made in the USA. To be eligible for the rebate, new EV cars must sell below $55,000 and new EV SUVs must sell below $80,000. What is not known now is whether the Tesla Model Y will be considered a car or SUV. It would quality for the rebate as a SUV, but not as a car.

If I want that $7,500 rebate for a new Volvo C40 or XC40, I have to act fast. The law requires that I must have fully purchased the new car before the end of this year. That means I must sign all the final purchase papers – and take full possession of the vehicle no later than Dec 31, 2022. A purchase order, without delivery, isn't enough. That rebate is more than 10% of the MSRP of those cars!

 

[Swerd]

Yesterday, I also learned something entirely new and unexpected. That Volvo dealer I visited also sells cars named Polestars. A quick look shows they compete with the Tesla Model 3 sedan.

Polestar 2 - Electric performance fastback | Polestar US

Even more engaging. Even more refined. Even more efficient. Experience our commitment to improvement with the latest iteration of the Polestar 2.

www.polestar.com

They're Swedish designed, Chinese made, sedans. Volvo purchased Polestar in 2015. I think they used Polestar's designs, especially the electronic car/driver interface system to build their own EVs. Apparently, Volvo decided to market their own EVs as compact or mid SUVs, while selling the Polestars as sedans.

I may look into them as well.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You mentioned the back seat of the Volvo will not be comfortable for you, in essence.
How often do you sit in the back seat of your cars and be the passenger there?
The wife did that with older son seating back there if he fits, 6'2". He never sits there; I do if she drives, and he would sit up front.

I don't know of an electric car that would get 4 miles to a kW. That Tesla car with 325-mile range must have a larger battery or wishful thinking.

 

[Alex2507]

 

[j_garcia]

Yesterday, I also learned something entirely new and unexpected. That Volvo dealer I visited also sells cars named Polestars. A quick look shows they compete with the Tesla Model 3 sedan.

Polestar 2 - Electric performance fastback | Polestar US

Even more engaging. Even more refined. Even more efficient. Experience our commitment to improvement with the latest iteration of the Polestar 2.

www.polestar.com

They're Swedish designed, Chinese made, sedans. Volvo purchased Polestar in 2015. I think they used Polestar's designs, especially the electronic car/driver interface system to build their own EVs. Apparently, Volvo decided to market their own EVs as compact or mid SUVs, while selling the Polestars as sedans.

I may look into them as well.

It is the opposite I believe, and they have been in the market for a few years already. Polestar was a division of Volvo and became their EV group. All engineering and manufacturing is by Volvo essentially. Both were purchased by Geely, a Chinese car company looking to get in to the EV market globally and a company that already knows how to build cars and has manufacturing makes sense for a good start. The models which are electric in both brands (Volvo and Polestar) will be very similar.

A friend of mine has a dual motor 2 that he just bought a few months ago and it is pretty nice.

The bill to delay the American sourced batteries requirement went to Congress on Fri.

Almost all electric vehicles would qualify for the US EV tax credit with new Congress bill

You may be in luck if you’re looking to buy an electric vehicle. A new bill introduced in the US...

electrek.co

 

[Swerd]

It is the opposite I believe, and they have been in the market for a few years already. Polestar was a division of Volvo and became their EV group. All engineering and manufacturing is by Volvo essentially. Both were purchased by Geely, a Chinese car company looking to get in to the EV market globally and a company that already knows how to build cars and has manufacturing makes sense for a good start. The models which are electric in both brands (Volvo and Polestar) will be very similar.

Yes, you seem to know more about this than I had. I spoke with a Volvo salesman today who told me that Polestar was always a Volvo creation from it's beginning. Polestar did the R&D for EV car technology and computer operation system. From what I saw, the Volvo and Polestar have identical user interface.

Ford Motors had owned Volvo since 1999, when they bought it for $6.5 billion. In 2010 they sold it for $1.8 billion to The Geely Holding Group, a private Chinese company. Ford clearly didn't understand how to sell Volvos and lost out big time in the deal. By 2015, Volvo owned 50% of Polestar and Geely held the other 50%.

The bill to delay the American sourced batteries requirement went to Congress on Fri.

I certainly hope that gets passed.

In fact, today I bought a Volvo C40. I pick it up in 2 more days. Photos in the next post.

 

[Swerd]

Two photos of my new car in the showroom. It arrived at the dealer Saturday. Sold today (Monday).

 

[Swerd]

For what it's worth, I got two instant discounts. $1,000 for owning a Volvo, and $1,250 because of a Costco membership. In older times, $2,250 seemed like a lot of money. My very first car cost $2,400 in 1972.

Today those 2 discounts amount to 3.35% of what that car costs. Do the math if you care to. If that $7,500 rebate comes around, that will mean quite a lot.

I bought the car today because, 1) I'm done paying money to the oil barons, 2) EVs are still in very high demand and very short supply, and 3) this car was the model I want, in an acceptable color, in the showroom, available right now. No waiting for months.

Oh … and it has a Harmon Kardon premium sound system.

 

[Verdinut]

For what it's worth, I got two instant discounts. $1,000 for owning a Volvo, and $1,250 because of a Costco membership. In older times, $2,250 seemed like a lot of money. My very first car cost $2,400 in 1972.

Today those 2 discounts amount to 3.35% of what that car costs. Do the math if you care to. If that $7,500 rebate comes around, that will mean quite a lot.

I bought the car today because, 1) I'm done paying money to the oil barons, 2) EVs are still in very high demand and very short supply, and 3) this car was the model I want, in an acceptable color, in the showroom, available right now. No waiting for months.

Oh … and it has a Harmon Kardon premium sound system.

According to your calculations, your car would sell for $223,880. Does the HK system cost $150,000?

 

[mtrycrafts]

@Swerd keep us updated on driving range per kWh, etc.

 

[Swerd]

According to your calculations, your car would sell for $223,880. Does the HK system cost $150,000?

I don’t know what math you learned in Montreal . But here’s what I was thinking:

3.35% of X dollars = $2,250

X = $2,250 ÷ 0.0335

 

[Verdinut]

I don’t know what math you learned in Montreal . But here’s what I was thinking:

3.35% of X dollars = $2,250

X = $2,250 / 0.0335

Haven't you mentioned about a $7500 rebate in your second paragraph? Excuse me but I don't understand what that means.

 

[j_garcia]

Haven't you mentioned about a $7500 rebate in your second paragraph? Excuse me but I don't understand what that means.

He can't get that currently. If the bill I posted passes, he should get it retroactively. The C40 is a possibility for me as well, though I am interested to see the comparable Polestar. The 3 is coming out soon, but I believe that is the larger model, like the C90 platform. They are trying not to release them in the same classes right now, so as not to compete. Volvo has already stated they would have no more ICE only cars by 2025. Every model would be EV or hybrid.

 

[Swerd]

Haven't you mentioned about a $7500 rebate in your second paragraph? Excuse me but I don't understand what that means.

He can't get that currently. If the bill I posted passes, he should get it retroactively. The C40 is a possibility for me as well, though I am interested to see the comparable Polestar. The 3 is coming out soon, but I believe that is the larger model, like the C90 platform. They are trying not to release them in the same classes right now, so as not to compete. Volvo has already stated they would have no more ICE only cars by 2025. Every model would be EV or hybrid.

j_garcia is right. At present, the Volvo C40 (or the XC40, same chassis & drive, different body) is no longer eligible for the $7,500 US Federal tax credit. I hadn't understood that until yesterday.

Under the old law (expires on 31 Dec 2022), the Volvo C40 & XC40 qualified for the full $7,500 rebate. On 1 Jan 2023 the new law (the Inflation Reduction Act) goes into effect – these cars are no longer qualified because not enough battery parts are made in North America & their final assembly is also not in North America. Also – and this is the part I hadn't understood until yesterday – when the new law was signed on 16 Aug 2022, it specifically said that EVs assembled outside of North America (I assume that means the USA, Mexico, & Canada) would lose eligibility immediately, not after 31 Dec 2022.

Go to this document
https://electrek.co/2022/10/31/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/
Scroll down until you see:
Revamped Credit for new BEV/PHEVs

Item 5 says:

5. North American assembly requirement applies to vehicles sold after the date of adoption of the bill. (Page 386, line 3)​

Other parts of that detailed description of the Inflation Reduction Act had led me to believe that because foreign made EVs had been previously eligible for the full $7,500 rebate, that eligibility would expire after 31 Dec 2022. Apparently, I was wrong. That particular feature expired on 16 Aug 2022 when the new law was signed by the President.

I decided to buy anyway. I will file for the $7,500 rebate when I file my income tax papers next April. As always, the IRS (the US Internal Revenue Service) can always say no to my first offer. And, it might be that I can get that tax credit, with a few months delay.

 

[Mikado463]

Two photos of my new car in the showroom. It arrived at the dealer Saturday. Sold today (Monday).

Congrats, hope it gives you many trouble free miles !

 

[Swerd]

… I am interested to see the comparable Polestar. The 3 is coming out soon, but I believe that is the larger model, like the C90 platform.

According to this, the Polestar 3 would be long range, more powerful with a larger battery (111kWh vs. the 75kWh in my C40 or the Tesla Y), and cost quite a bit more. $83,900 MSRP would put it above the $80,000 upper limit for SUV cost in the Inflation Reduction Act that goes into effect 1 Jan 2023.

 

[j_garcia]

According to this, the Polestar 3 would be long range, more powerful with a larger battery (111kWh vs. the 75kWh in my C40 or the Tesla Y), and cost quite a bit more. $83,900 MSRP would put it above the $80,000 upper limit for SUV cost in the Inflation Reduction Act that goes into effect 1 Jan 2023.

Yep, those limits will be an issue as well. I am actually waiting on the pricing for the Ionic 5N because that's the one I really want. I am guessing the pricing will be above the $55k limit for a car. Now they are looking at whether or not the Ionic 5 is actually considered an SUV or car. I need it to be an SUV The standard version limited comes in right at $55k for dual motor.

 

[Teetertotter?]

Good luck finding plug-ins on your vacation journeys that will to be designed around. Or having to wait in line. If you have a full load car or truck, what is the distance one can travel b/4 running out of energy? A hilly terrain put more drain on the batteries? Is the current electrical grid going to support all the demands by 2035 during the summer seasons? What is the cost to wire 220 for your house? Apartment/housing units having outlets? Anyway, what portion of the population can afford a new vehicle and into the future? Just some questions on my mind. Hopefully there will still be hybrids.

Then too, what happens to our environment if the House and Senate go Republican with a Republican President????? lol

 

[Mikado463]

Good luck finding plug-ins on your vacation journeys that will to be designed around. Or having to wait in line. If you have a full load car or truck, what is the distance one can travel b/4 running out of energy? A hilly terrain put more drain on the batteries? Is the current electrical grid going to support all the demands by 2035 during the summer seasons? What is the cost to wire 220 for your house? Apartment/housing units having outlets? Anyway, what portion of the population can afford a new vehicle and into the future? Just some questions on my mind. Hopefully there will still be hybrids.

Then too, what happens to our environment if the House and Senate go Republican with a Republican President????? lol

My son assures me in 10 years all these questions will be answered .........

 

[j_garcia]

Good luck finding plug-ins on your vacation journeys that will to be designed around. Or having to wait in line. If you have a full load car or truck, what is the distance one can travel b/4 running out of energy? A hilly terrain put more drain on the batteries? Is the current electrical grid going to support all the demands by 2035 during the summer seasons? What is the cost to wire 220 for your house? Apartment/housing units having outlets? Anyway, what portion of the population can afford a new vehicle and into the future? Just some questions on my mind. Hopefully there will still be hybrids.

Then too, what happens to our environment if the House and Senate go Republican with a Republican President????? lol

In California chargers aren't an issue in most big metro areas and most tourist areas also know they need them. It is only the small towns that tend to not have many or any. Gas hybrids cannot be sold under the ICE ban. Plug-in gas hybrids, where the engine only powers the battery and is not used to move the vehicle, will still be able to be sold. That is 10 yrs away still. Here at work, we have ~50 chargers on the roof of the parking garage.

Yes, hills cause issues. Extreme cold or heat also. Look for a car with a heat pump which keeps the temp of the battery stable to maintain charge. ALL of the manufacturers are well aware they need to hit the average consumer level pricing and that is coming. The next market driver and competition point is going to be that market. Chevy pretty well proved nobody currently wants a "cheap" EV, but people don't want a $100k EV either, so most of the major brands are looking at around the under $40K, Civic, Corolla, etc... range because that is what the average consumer can afford. Expect to see that in the next 2-3 years.

The grid already can't handle humans, so EVs don't help that, however one possible solution to that I mentioned earlier in this thread is the ability of cars that are charging during the day to share their power with the grid, alleviating issues during peak hours. Not all of them have this capability currently, but I think it is likely to become the norm.

Then there are "hot swap" batteries, which eliminates charging time for the consumer. You drive up, swap battery, drive away in about 10-15 min. Those batteries can be power sharing to the grid while not in a car so chargers are far less necessary. This one is currently being done by one company in Europe, but it is a LONG way from being common anywhere.