Electric Vehicles?

[Mikado463]

Toyota has been a leader in hybrid for quite some time now

 

[j_garcia]

Toyota and Honda believed hydrogen would win out over electric, but the cost of hydrogen is so much higher than gas. Distribution and production is still an issue there.

Toyota still has the best hybrid systems I believe.

 

[lovinthehd]

Haven't seen a hybrid quite like this before....pretty cool !

 

[Cos]

I did pull the trigger and put in an order for a new BMW I4 50. BMW had a roadshow in my area where I got to test drive it on a mini course and came away impressed. I also was able to test drive an M8 Competition on a test track with one of their diving instructors, but I can't afford that one, granted its not electric

9 Month build time for the car.. so will enjoy my X5 until then lol

 

[j_garcia]

I want that fed rebate so I am holding off for now. All the cars I was interested in don't qualify now.

 

[Swerd]

After starting this thread nearly a year ago, late in December 2021, I finally test drove a Tesla Model Y yesterday. My first impressions were generally good. I expected Tesla cars to have completely re-invented the wheel. Not entirely true.

I really liked the Model Y's interior roominess. I found getting in and out was comfortable and easy for an aging coot like myself. There was plenty of distance between the upper & lower limits of the door opening. Once inside, it looked & felt quite roomy. During the short test ride, about half an hour, the front seats were quite comfortable. A more stringent test of seat comfort will require longer time. My car seat standards are high – since 2003, I've owned 2 Volvos. In my opinion, Volvo seats are by far the best car seats I've known.

I wondered how I would react to the brave new world Tesla instrument panel. It has only a 15" wide video screen and nothing else. I found it surprisingly easy to adapt to it. I only scratched the surface of the Tesla 'operating system', but it was easy to learn the basics. Remember that the cars I now drive (a 2000 Volvo S70 plus a 2001 Volvo S60) have all analog looking controls & instruments.

Besides the steering wheel and the usual gas and brake pedals, there are 2 stalks on the steering column for turn signals and drive selector (P, R, N, & D). There may be other functions for those 2 stalks, but I'm not aware of them now. There were also 2 adjustable thumb wheels on the steering wheel itself. They allow adjusting the door rear view mirrors, and adjusting the position of the steering wheel, depending on what functions I selected on the big video screen. Probably these thumb wheels have more functions that I've yet to encounter.

The 2 front seats have the usual power adjustments that most of us know well. They're located in the expected position.

I liked the general driving feel. Steering was all "by wire" but it felt good, with lots of apparent feed back from the wheels.

Lifting my foot off the 'gas' pedal generates a lot of braking. So much so that I didn't need to use the brake pedal at lower speeds. I hadn't expected that. It took a short while to get used to that, but I found I liked it. I am quite used to the engine braking that comes with manual transmissions. The 'engine' braking I felt in the Tesla Y was greater than with standard internal combustion engines and manual transmission. My wife, who is more used to automatic transmission, found that she also liked EV engine braking.

I also examined a Tesla Model 3, but didn't drive it. It shares the same chassis and drive trains with the larger Model Y. (The 3 is a smaller 4-door sedan with a typical trunk, and the Y is mid-size SUV-like with a hatch back opening.) I found the Model 3 fairly easy to get into and out of, as long as the seat was low enough and far enough back for a 6' tall person. I saw it had the same 15" video monitor as the only instrument panel. I was told that it shares very similar software.

 

[Swerd]

Yesterday, I also spoke to the Tesla sales staff about the federal EV tax rebate. They were somewhat vague about the details because the IRS hasn't yet posted it's final decisions. They explained that the IRS hasn't decided on a number of issues, such as, is the Tesla Model Y a sedan or SUV. This matters because the rebates have an upper sales price limit for EV sedans at $55,000 and $80,000 for SUVs. It is easy to equip a Model Y well under the $80k price limit, but not the $55k limit. In addition, it will be difficult (nearly impossible?) to equip a Model 3 for less its $55k price limit.

The sales staff urged me to look up the details about all this online. So I did. And I want to share it with AH viewers.

The many IRS.gov web pages do cover all the details, but I was confused about many things until I read this non-IRS summary:

Here’s every electric vehicle that qualifies for the current and upcoming US federal tax credit
https://electrek.co/2022/08/21/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/

New Federal Tax Credits under the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act

• The new Federal tax credit for EVs will remain at $7,500. The previous 2009 rebate law was set to phase out at the end of 2022.
  • Timeline to qualify is extended a decade from January 2023 to December 2032
• The new 2022 law eliminates a previous 2009 tax credit cap for automakers that phased in once they sell 200,000 EVs. As a result, GM, Tesla, and Toyota will once again be eligible.
• The language in the 2022 bill indicates that the tax credit would be implemented at the point of sale instead of on taxes at the end of the fiscal year as it previously has been.
  • That means you can get your credit up front at the dealer, but these terms may not kick in until 2024.
  • In order to get the full credit, the EV must be assembled in North America and …
  • The majority of battery components need to come from North America and …
  • A certain percentage of “critical minerals” must come form North America or countries with free trade agreements with the US
• A new federal tax credit of $4,000 will be for used EVs priced below $25k.
  • Subject to other requirements like lower annual income (see below)
• Revised credit applies to battery electric vehicle (BEV) cars with an MSRP below $55k.
• Also includes zero-emission vans, SUVs, and trucks with MSRPs up to $80,000
• New credit also expands to commercial fleet customers
  • Includes separate qualifications and limits
• The federal EV tax credit will be available to individuals reporting adjusted gross incomes of $150,000 or less, or $300,000 for joint filers
• The new credit will also continue to apply to Plug-in Hybrid EVs (PHEVs) as long as they meet the same requirements outlined above and are equipped with a battery over 7 kWh.

This is only a summary. As always, the devil is in the details. See the web page for the whole story.

Under the terms mentioned above, the article included an extensive list of EVs that could qualify for the full $7,500 credit beginning January 1, 2023. Again, see the web page for tables of what vehicles qualify, and when. We'll know more before the end of this year, probably sometime in December.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yesterday, I also spoke to the Tesla sales staff about the federal EV tax rebate. They were somewhat vague about the details because the IRS hasn't yet posted it's final decisions. They explained that the IRS hasn't decided on a number of issues, such as, is the Tesla Model Y a sedan or SUV. This matters because the rebate have an upper sales price limit for EV sedans at $50,000 and $80,000 for SUVs. They urged me to look up the details about all this online. So I did. And I want to share it with AH viewers.

The many IRS.gov web pages do cover all the details, but I was confused about many things until I read this non-IRS summary:

Here’s every electric vehicle that qualifies for the current and upcoming US federal tax credit
https://electrek.co/2022/08/21/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/

New Federal Tax Credits under the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act

• The new Federal tax credit for EVs will remain at $7,500. The previous rebate law was set to phase out at the end of 2022.
  • Timeline to qualify is extended a decade from January 2023 to December 2032
• The new law eliminates a previous tax credit cap for automakers that phases in once they sell 200,000 EVs. As a result, GM, Tesla, and Toyota will once again be eligible.
• The language in the bill indicates that the tax credit would be implemented at the point of sale instead of on taxes at the end of the fiscal year as it previously has been.
  • That means you can get your credit up front at the dealer, but these terms may not kick in until 2024.
  • In order to get the full credit, the EV must be assembled in North America and …
  • The majority of battery components need to come from North America and …
  • A certain percentage of “critical minerals” must come form North America or countries with free trade agreements with the US
• New federal tax credit of $4,000 will be for used EVs priced below $25k.
  • Subject to other requirements like lower annual income (see below)
• Revised credit applies to battery electric vehicle (BEV) cars with an MSRP below $55k.
• Also includes zero-emission vans, SUVs, and trucks with MSRPs up to $80,000
• New credit also expands to commercial fleet customers
  • Includes separate qualifications and limits
• The federal EV tax credit will be available to individuals reporting adjusted gross incomes of $150,000 or less, or $300,000 for joint filers
• The new credit will also continue to apply to Plug-in Hybrid EVs (PHEVs) as long as they meet the same requirements outlined above and are equipped with a battery over 7 kWh.

This is only a summary. As always, the devil is in the details. See the web page for the whole story.

Under the terms mentioned above, the article included an extensive list of EVs that could qualify for the full $7,500 credit beginning January 1, 2023. Again, see the web page for tables of what vehicles qualify, and when. We'll know more before the end of this year, probably sometime in December.

If you get an EV make sure you don't drive though deep water or get it in a flood. The EVs that were in the Florida flood are starting to catch fire, and you can not out the fire out, as they keep spontaneously reigniting. This looks like a significant issue for EVs.

We have two Toyota hybrids. One is 2008 with over 200,000 miles on it.

 

[Mikado463]

If you get an EV make sure you don't drive though deep water or get it in a flood. The EVs that were in the Florida flood are starting to catch fire, and you can not out the fire out, as they keep spontaneously reigniting. This looks like a significant issue for EVs.

We have two Toyota hybrids. One is 2008 with over 200,000 miles on it.

not only that but on the news last night it was stated that it takes ten time as much water to put out an EV fire vs ICE vehicle........

 

[TLS Guy]

not only that but on the news last night it was stated that it takes ten time as much water to put out an EV fire vs ICE vehicle........

That is because they keep reigniting, until all the energy is used up as heat.

 

[mtrycrafts]

....

We have two Toyota hybrids. One is 2008 with over 200,000 miles on it.

I have a 2008 Prius with way less mileage and wife has a 21.

 

[Swerd]

The large lithium batteries in EVs are the source of the very hot fires.

How Do You Extinguish a Lithium Battery Fire? - Tex Tech Industries

Tex Tech explains how to prevent and extinguish lithium battery fires.

textechindustries.com

If a lithium battery overheats, it can burst into flames. This thermal instability, referred to as thermal runaway, happens when flaming gases are vented from the lithium-ion cells in the battery. The overheating of one failing cell causes a chain reaction in the other cells. The reaction can happen within milliseconds to hours, depending on how quickly each cell fails. The exothermic heat given off during the reaction may be sufficient to start a fire.

Triggers for lithium battery fires include:

• Short circuits. Improper storage, damage, and metal dust left over from manufacturing can cause circuits to short, leading to combustion.
• Overheating. Extreme temperatures on loading docks, cargo holds, or tarmacs can lead to overheating or fire during transit or storage.
• Rough handling. Dropping a battery or jostling it excessively during transport or use can set off thermal runaway.
• Physical damage. Damage from shredding or dismantling a battery during recycling operations can result in an explosion.
• Wet/humid conditions. Rainwater, salty air, and humidity might cause short circuits and trigger thermal runaway even without prior damage to the battery.

How to Put Out a Lithium Battery Fire
In the case of a lithium battery fire, there are several ways to extinguish it based on the size and type of battery:

Class D fire extinguishers are effective against lithium-metal battery fires. Lithium-ion battery fires are classified as Class B fires, indicating the presence of flammable liquids, so a standard dry chemical or ABC extinguisher can put them out. Lithium battery fire extinguishers counteract the liquid electrolytes in the battery that create conductive pathways.

Small lithium batteries contain very little lithium, so they can be doused with water. To put out larger lithium-ion battery fires, use a foam extinguisher containing CO2, powder graphite, ABC dry chemical, or sodium carbonate.

In battery pack fires, each cell may burn on a different timeline. Place the battery pack in a protected outdoor space to allow it to completely burn out.

If a fire cannot be extinguished, let the battery burn out in a controlled way. Prevent the fire from spreading by soaking the surrounding area with water.

It seems the large batteries in EVs might be too large for the standard dry chemical or class ABC fire extinguishers mentioned above. Class D fire extinguishers designed for lithium and other flammable metal fires are commercially available. Here's what I could find from an online Amerex catalog:

https://www.amerex-fire.com/upl/downloads/library/class-d-extinguishers.pdf

MODEL B570 contains a special blended Sodium Chloride based dry powder extinguishing agent. Heat from the fire causes it to cake and form a crust excluding air and dissipating heat from burning metal. Metal fires involving magnesium, sodium, potassium and sodium-potassium alloys can be successfully extinguished with this extinguisher. There is data showing that zirconium, uranium, titanium, and powdered aluminum fires can be controlled and extinguished with this unique extinguisher.

MODEL B571 contains a copper extinguishing agent specially developed by the U.S. Navy for fighting lithium and lithium alloy fires. The copper compound smothers the fire and provides an excellent heat sink for dissipating heat. Copper powder has been found to be superior to all other known fire extinguishing agents for lithium.

Amerex's “soft flow” extension applicator is particularly suited for fighting Class D fires. It allows the operator to stand away from the extreme heat and toxic fumes caused by burning material. The easily controlled, even discharge provides a non-dispersing application of the agent. The extension applicator may be quickly detached to provide a straight stream of chemical where greater range is required.

Those canisters are expensive ($800 at Home Depot) and large, holding 30 lbs. Too large to keep in a car?

 

[Swerd]

And finally, I saw this, a Lithium Ion Battery Gas Detector:
https://www.amerex-fire.com/products/lithium-ion-battery-gas-detection/

I wonder what that costs?

 

[highfigh]

In the past month or two, I've started to think about getting an electric vehicle (EV). I now own a 2000 Volvo S70, with 140,000 miles. It's aging, but I've kept it in a garage, and the engine and transmission are in excellent condition. It has manual transmission, gets ~26 mpg in local stop & go driving, and ~32 mpg on the highway. That gives it as much as 500+ miles driving range on a tank of gas, if 5th gear is used.

I much prefer manual transmission over automatic. All but one car I've owned has had manual transmission. I really like my Volvo in general; it's front seats are excellent, by far the best I've ever owned. This S70 (4-door sedan) dates from before Ford Motors' purchased Volvo (their cost cutting efforts took a big toll on Volvo's performance and interior comfort). Ford gave up after a few years, selling Volvo to a Chinese holding company who claimed they wanted to manage the money, while they turned engineering back to the Volvo people.

Manual vs. automatic transmission seems to now be a problem. Fewer and fewer cars come with manual transmission. I've seen advertising claiming modern automatic transmissions actually get better mileage than manuals. I doubt that. I also know from years of experience that manual transmission gives me much better speed control of a car, especially when driving in snow or ice. People who only drive automatics don't understand the large effect engine breaking has with standard transmission. Finally, I find driving an automatic is simply boring. A car with manual transmission keeps me much more involved in driving – something I like.

My initial thought about EVs came about because of the transmission thing. Instead of a car with an internal combustion engine, or hybrid, with an automatic transmission, I wondered if an EV might be more acceptable. I figured, why not go all in instead of half-way in? I have not test driven an EV, so, that's a big unanswered question.

The same thinking goes for the lack of a conventional dashboard. The most recent Tesla models seem to have all their instrument panel on a large video screen, off to the driver's right. It will take loosing some old habits and learning new ones to get used to that. Why not jump in all the way, instead of going half-way in?

And, as I get older, seating comfort, and especially ease of getting in & out of a car, become more important. Too many modern cars can be a problem for me, where my Volvo is quite easy to get in & out.

The other VERY BIG issue for any EV, is driving range. I've looked into Tesla Model Y and Model 3. So far, the Model Y looks good, on paper. The dual motor, AWD version of the Model Y is said to have a range of 326 miles. However, the high price, about $60,000, is a potential show-stopper. The smaller Model 3 (also with dual motors) can go as far as 353 miles, and costs ~$50,000. Still very high. I'll have to try both the 3 and the Y before I know which size works best for me. If I go for an EV, I will get a 240 Volt recharger for my garage. So, I have to add that cost to that of the car.

What other EVs are worth looking into? What about plug-in hybrids?

What things decrease EV range?

• EV energy consumption is highly dependent on speed. For example, the very expensive Tesla Model S requires 10 kW (14 hp) at 70 mph (110 km/h), and 31 kW (42 hp) at 100 mph (160 km/h).
  
  
• Climate control, battery conditioning, etc. may consume 15-25%, depending on outside temperature. EVs can lose ≥40% of their range in cold weather, at ≤20°F (-7°C) when heating the interior cabin. Some EVs use heat pumps (such as the Tesla Model Y and Model 3). That should be more energy efficient in cold weather than other EVs with resistance heaters. What about air conditioning in hot weather? Will a heat pump result in less energy consumption than standard air conditioning compressors? What about power windows, adjustable seats, or heated seats?
  
  
• Tires – EVs are heavy compared to similar sized internal combustion vehicles (ICV). The added weight is due to the batteries. Tires must be larger for that. Low rolling resistance is critical for EVs. In addition, electric motors have more low RPM torque than IC engines. More stress on tires. Finally, because EVs are so quiet compared to ICVs, tire road noise becomes more noticeable. As a result, tires are larger, have low rolling resistance, must run quieter, and are probably more expensive. Will they require more frequent replacement too?

What else should I know about EVs? I have not yet driven any EV, so my opinion about them is not yet formed.

As much as you want to believe you're better at knowing when to shift and that gives you better fuel economy, it's not true- the transmission and engine control are linked and when the computer sees that the vacuum is too low, it will want to shift to a gear that allows the throttle to be closed. I would assume that it makes exceptions for this when the throttle opens a lot, quickly- it would allow this for safe acceleration but for general driving, it's going to be pretty good about getting the best economy. Will it be fun to drive when this is happening? I doubt it, but if the car has a sport mode, it likely lets you have some seat of the pants acceleration.

Maybe a hybrid would be more to your liking? Some friends bought a Toyota Highlander hybrid and when I drove it, I didn't think it lacked anything and the fuel economy made me want to get rid of my van which, as it happens, I don't need for my business anymore. It's still great to have, for hauling stuff and not worrying about a bit of dirt. Next vehicle might just be a Highlander like the one my friends have- the fuel economy is great.

 

[Swerd]

@highfigh
You have a bad habit of misquoting others. In regard to my preference for standard over automatic transmission, you said this:

As much as you want to believe you're better at knowing when to shift and that gives you better fuel economy, it's not true- the transmission and engine control are linked and when the computer sees that the vacuum is too low, it will want to shift to a gear that allows the throttle to be closed. I would assume that it makes exceptions for this when the throttle opens a lot, quickly- it would allow this for safe acceleration but for general driving, it's going to be pretty good about getting the best economy. Will it be fun to drive when this is happening? I doubt it, but if the car has a sport mode, it likely lets you have some seat of the pants acceleration.

I never said standard transmission gives you better fuel economy. What I did say was this. Read it again here.

I much prefer manual transmission over automatic. All but one car I've owned has had manual transmission. I really like my Volvo in general; it's front seats are excellent, by far the best I've ever owned. This S70 (4-door sedan) dates from before Ford Motors' purchased Volvo (their cost cutting efforts took a big toll on Volvo's performance and interior comfort). Ford gave up after a few years, selling Volvo to a Chinese holding company who claimed they wanted to manage the money, while they turned engineering back to the Volvo people.

Manual vs. automatic transmission seems to now be a problem. Fewer and fewer cars come with manual transmission. I've seen advertising claiming modern automatic transmissions actually get better mileage than manuals. I doubt that. I also know from years of experience that manual transmission gives me much better speed control of a car, especially when driving in snow or ice. People who only drive automatics don't understand the large effect engine breaking has with standard transmission. Finally, I find driving an automatic is simply boring. A car with manual transmission keeps me much more involved in driving – something I like.

What I like about standard transmission is the speed control you get. Take your foot off the gas pedal in a standard and you can easily feel the difference vs. automatic. A standard allows the slowing engine to slow the car's speed while an automatic coasts and coasts.

I did say I doubted claims that modern automatic transmissions get better fuel mileage than manuals, meaning I wonder if that's true or not. That's different than saying it's true.

In my own case, I now own two cars with similar engines and somewhat similar weights. One is a Volvo S70 with manual transmission and a 5-cylinder 2.4 liter engine, without any turbo charger. The other car is a Volvo S60 with automatic transmission and a similar engine with a mild turbo charger. At the time, Volvo sold that engine with 3 levels of turbocharging, mild, moderate and extreme. Most often, I drive the S70, but at times I drive the S60. On the highway in 5th gear, the S70 gets as much as 32 mpg. The S60, gets about 30 mpg. Those two mileages are not significantly different. It's not a truly direct comparison of manual vs. automatic, but it's also not apples vs. oranges comparison.

But my main point is that I never claimed manual transmission is more fuel efficient. And you somehow decided I did.

 

[GO-NAD!]

After starting this thread nearly a year ago, late in December 2021, I finally test drove a Tesla Model Y yesterday. My first impressions were generally good. I expected Tesla cars to have completely re-invented the wheel. Not entirely true.

I really liked the Model Y's interior roominess. I found getting in and out was comfortable and easy for an aging coot like myself. There was plenty of distance between the upper & lower limits of the door opening. Once inside, it looked & felt quite roomy. During the short test ride, about half an hour, the front seats were quite comfortable. A more stringent test of seat comfort will require longer time. My car seat standards are high – since 2003, I've owned 2 Volvos. In my opinion, Volvo seats are by far the best car seats I've known.

I wondered how I would react to the brave new world Tesla instrument panel. It has only a 15" wide video screen and nothing else. I found it surprisingly easy to adapt to it. I only scratched the surface of the Tesla 'operating system', but it was easy to learn the basics. Remember that the cars I now drive (a 2000 Volvo S70 plus a 2001 Volvo S60) have all analog looking controls & instruments.

Besides the steering wheel and the usual gas and brake pedals, there are 2 stalks on the steering column for turn signals and drive selector (P, R, N, & D). There may be other functions for those 2 stalks, but I'm not aware of them now. There were also 2 adjustable thumb wheels on the steering wheel itself. They allow adjusting the door rear view mirrors, and adjusting the position of the steering wheel, depending on what functions I selected on the big video screen. Probably these thumb wheels have more functions that I've yet to encounter.

The 2 front seats have the usual power adjustments that most of us know well. They're located in the expected position.

I liked the general driving feel. Steering was all "by wire" but it felt good, with lots of apparent feed back from the wheels.

Lifting my foot off the 'gas' pedal generates a lot of braking. So much so that I didn't need to use the brake pedal at lower speeds. I hadn't expected that. It took a short while to get used to that, but I found I liked it. I am quite used to the engine braking that comes with manual transmissions. The 'engine' braking I felt in the Tesla Y was greater than with standard internal combustion engines and manual transmission. My wife, who is more used to automatic transmission, found that she also liked EV engine braking.

I also examined a Tesla Model 3, but didn't drive it. It shares the same chassis and drive trains with the larger Model Y. (The 3 is a smaller 4-door sedan with a typical trunk, and the Y is mid-size SUV-like with a hatch back opening.) I found the Model 3 fairly easy to get into and out of, as long as the seat was low enough and far enough back for a 6' tall person. I saw it had the same 15" video monitor as the only instrument panel. I was told that it shares very similar software.

I don't know if you've checked into reliability ratings, but in case you haven't, Consumer Reports rates the Model 3 as "Good" (average), while Models S and Y are rated "Worse" (the lowest rating). The most prominent problem areas are: climate system, paint/trim, body integrity, body hardware and in-car electronics.

The highest rated electric vehicle is the Kia Nero Electric.

 

[Mikado463]

What I like about standard transmission is the speed control you get. Take your foot off the gas pedal in a standard and you can easily feel the difference vs. automatic. A standard allows the slowing engine to slow the car's speed while an automatic coasts and coasts.

FWIW modern automatics, especially dual clutch performance versions offer every bit the same advantages as the old school standards. My wifes Subaru with it's CVT transmission even is able to replicate downshifting when put in 'M', whereas my daily driver ('17 BMW X5) even when left in 'D' downshifts progressively as you let your foot of the gas, easily noted by the tach bounce.

 

[j_garcia]

EVs have no transmission "Shifting" in CVT cars is achieved through software and I understand companies added this because the unlimited smooth feeling of early CVTs was not popular with drivers. There is no need for a CVT to feel like it is shifting because it doesn't.

All the EVs I am interested in currently still won't qualify. There is another proposed bill to put a moratorium on US built batteries for all EVs for a few years to give foreign companies time to bring up production in the US or switch to US based battery companies.

Hyundai Could Get Federal EV Tax Credits Thanks To New Bill From Georgia Senator | Carscoops

President Biden's Inflation Reduction Act overhauls how the federal EV tax credit program operates

www.carscoops.com

 

[Mikado463]

EVs have no transmission "Shifting" in CVT cars is achieved through software and I understand companies added this because the unlimited smooth feeling of early CVTs was not popular with drivers. There is no need for a CVT to feel like it is shifting because it doesn't.

Exactly, I rode snowmobiles for 42 years, the CVT goes back a long ways !

 

[Swerd]

I liked my first impression of the Tesla Model Y the other week. Since then I've learned some things that argue strongly against buying one:

• Telsa sells two very expensive options:
  • Enhanced Autopilot for $6,000 (includes navigate on autopilot, auto lane change, auto park, summon, & smart summon). I'm not interested.
  • Full Self-Driving Capability for $15,000 (includes all of basic & enhanced autopilot functions, plus traffic light & stop sign control, and coming soon, auto steer on city streets).
  • I've recently learned that Tesla makes it difficult to order a car without the $15,000 Full Self-Driving option. You can order a car without it, but the delivery times will be many months longer. I'm not at all interested in a self-driving car, I will not pay for one, and I resent being coerced into buying one.
• I used to think Elon Musk is a flake. Now, since he bought Twitter, I know different. He's no better than Trump & his followers.

I don't think I'll be spending any money for a Tesla. Back to square one .