Audioklepto

Audioklepto

Enthusiast
I am trying to hold out 1 more year and sell my X5 M40I. Right now, thanks to a sellers market I am way ahead if I decide to sell. Would like to get a BMW I 50 sedan, but want to give them a year to work the bugs out and extend the range.
I am trying to hold out 1 more year and sell my X5 M40I. Right now, thanks to a sellers market I am way ahead if I decide to sell. Would like to get a BMW I 50 sedan, but want to give them a year to work the bugs out and extend the range.
A Tesla Model Y runs about $60k, handles better, charges MUCH easier, and is the best engineered ev by far. ICE cars are inferior in most ways and... not having to talk to a dealer has perks also.
 
Audioklepto

Audioklepto

Enthusiast
I took delivery of a Tesla Model Y in early Dec. Amazing car! My first vehicle with some pickup, it comes in handy. Charge at home for a few bucks (or get a few solar panels). Handles better than any vehicle I've ever been in. If there is maintenance, a tesla van (yes, Ford) comes to my house to fix it. I would have considered a Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota if they had a decent vehicle with a decent highway charging system- they don't.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
I would have considered a Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota if they had a decent vehicle with a decent highway charging system- they don't.
By the time I'm ready for an EV (5-10 years) they will and them some, bet the house on it ;)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Interesting article I read over the weekend said that all those big fat batteries in cars while they are sitting there charging can actually be used to powershare back to the grid during peak daily needs. They would only lend a small percentage back to the grid temporarily. This could offset the demand of all those vehicles charging as well as help to mitigate high demand periods.
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
A Tesla Model Y runs about $60k, handles better, charges MUCH easier, and is the best engineered ev by far. ICE cars are inferior in most ways and... not having to talk to a dealer has perks also.
I see your points, but there are a ton of downsides, I have several friends who own everthing from the SUV, model 3, and Model S Plaid, and I have test drove them all.

Why I won't by a Tesla
  1. Quality of materials used, interior etc, a step below BMW and other premium manufacturers
  2. Service. There are not enough tesla service centers, long waits, even longer troubleshooting, impossible to get things done in a timely manner
  3. Please see 2-5
  4. Dealer Support (I know I am repeating myself)
  5. I like having overhead display and an actual dash display that is not a tablet on the side (model 3/Y)
My friends have had terrible service experiences, one because he is in Iowa and not near a tesla dealer, others they have had repeated issues (door not opening, windows not working, CPU locked etc). Some have waited over 6 months and they still don't know how to fix these issues.

At least with BMW, there is a huge dealer network, I have always got excellent support, and the tech really is on par with Tesla, just not the battery tech, which is why I am waiting.

I don't hate Tesla, I even own Tesla stock and looking forward to their second split in less than 2 years, but I would not own their car.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I see your points, but there are a ton of downsides, I have several friends who own everthing from the SUV, model 3, and Model S Plaid, and I have test drove them all.

Why I won't by a Tesla
  1. Quality of materials used, interior etc, a step below BMW and other premium manufacturers
  2. Service. There are not enough tesla service centers, long waits, even longer troubleshooting, impossible to get things done in a timely manner
  3. Please see 2-5
  4. Dealer Support (I know I am repeating myself)
  5. I like having overhead display and an actual dash display that is not a tablet on the side (model 3/Y)
My friends have had terrible service experiences, one because he is in Iowa and not near a tesla dealer, others they have had repeated issues (door not opening, windows not working, CPU locked etc). Some have waited over 6 months and they still don't know how to fix these issues.

At least with BMW, there is a huge dealer network, I have always got excellent support, and the tech really is on par with Tesla, just not the battery tech, which is why I am waiting.

I don't hate Tesla, I even own Tesla stock and looking forward to their second split in less than 2 years, but I would not own their car.
Tesla quality is very low, among the worst in the industry. It has improved, which is to say, it was horrible before. I have a number of friends and a few family members who work there. Tesla is local to us here, and being the first place where they were released, there's one on every block practically. That makes them a lot less interesting.

I've owned a BMW, and while support is great, it costs an arm and two legs. Lexus not much different, but better quality IMO.

Here's another thing to think about with EVs: the battery never gets lighter, while ICE cars do get lighter as fuel is consumed. The weight/load on EV is constant even as the battery drains. That is something I never even thought about before reading that article. The quoted ranges are with no accessories being used, so use the heater: mileage goes drops. Use A/C: mileage drops. Ambient temperature affects the battery efficiency. There are definitely a lot of benefits, but there are some things that will take time to mitigate as well.

I still plan to buy an EV this year, but I probably would not if it was going to be my only car. I have an ICE and a hybrid as well, so the EV can be the go to work and around-towner, which is the majority of my driving.
 
Last edited:
P

Push

Audioholic
Recognizing that I'm probably going to get flamed for this long winded post, here goes:

As someone whose been in the automotive industry for decades, sometimes on the sales side but mostly on the service side, I tell every one of my customers who is considering an EV to STOP and go buy an internal combustion engine. I realize that I may come across as a dinosaur making this statement, but my reasons for making this statement come from years of watching the EV industry and closely following my trades magazines. I'll try to lay out my reasoning here:

1) The 6 month carbon payback is a lie, at least in North America. We have far too much electricity generated by coal and natural gas. As demand for electricity goes up, and it will increase thousands fold, not just doubling or tripling, older plants that have been shut down due to inefficiency will need to come online to "temporarily" while greener alternatives such as hydroelectric come online. Already this summer, some areas of California had to tell their residents to stop charging EVs or move their charging times as the grid wasn't able to support basic needs requirements.

2) Several recent tests show battery life reductions of 35% at the 7 yr mark. Of course this technology is always improving, but they're still showing life spans of 10 years. Then what do we do with the batteries? There is no recycling, yet, and nothing truly promising showing on the horizon. Our land fills will be full of these toxic batteries, and holding true to normal human behaviour, they will be there forever.

3) Two very reputable concerns currently show world wide shortages of Lithium and Cobalt by 2050, at TODAYS consumption levels. Imagine 10 years from now? This means other forms of electricity storage must be found, and quite frankly, there is again nothing on the near horizon.

4) Given that batteries 10 or 20 years from now will HAVE TO BE considerably different than they are right now, its doubtful that the new batteries will be backwards compatible in older EVs whose owners can no longer get the older technology batteries. And now we have more junk for the landfill. 20 year old ICE vehicles are still perfectly serviceable.

5) EV range is horrendous. It works for daily commutes, but what about family vacations? So now you need to buy an ICE to sit in a garage when you want to tow the boat to the lake or visit your summer cabin. Now you've just doubled down on your carbon footprint. And that rarely used vehicle sitting in your garage will deteriorate, even when its not being used.

6) EV doesn't work in cold climates. Three of my customers have the new Jeep Wrangler hybrid. This winter in the cold, they got 17 miles range out of their electrics before having to switch to the gas engine. 17 miles! And since the small gas engine "backup" is underpowered, they actually ended up spending more on gas this winter than I did with my Jeep Gladiator and the 3.6L gas engine, and MUCH more than my customer with his Gladiator diesel. So thats not overly green.

7) I've mentioned electrical infrastructure. So lets say that the genies who build the green energy producing plants, whether it be hydro, nuclear, solar or ????? (don't mention wind turbines, what a joke) are actually able to build enough plants to keep up to demand, who pays for this? The people using electricity of course. This infrastructure all costs money, and ALOT of it. Watch your electric bill go up 10x or more, and that won't just be in the electricity you use for charging your car, but in the power to your amps, your TVs, your ovens, etc etc.

I'm going to leave my reasoning and mutterings there for now, even though there are at least a dozen more reasons I could post. While I don't disagree we need to reduce our dependence on oil and oil based product, we need to find a better way. Hydrogen? Maybe. Electrical impulse through pavement? Maybe. I don't have that answer. What I do know is that EVs, in their current incarnation and any incarnation for the next decade are going to cause more issues than they resolve and leave their owners holding onto really expensive landfill refuse. Or perhaps we should stop villifying the poor old ICE engine and start pointing at the REAL causes of environmental pollution: Indian, Chinese, Korean and every other country whose manufacturing plants spews millions of tonnes of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
Tesla quality is very low, among the worst in the industry. It has improved, which is to say, it was horrible before. I have a number of friends and a few family members who work there. Tesla is local to us here, and being the first place where they were released, there's one on every block practically. That makes them a lot less interesting.

I've owned a BMW, and while support is great, it costs an arm and two legs. Lexus not much different, but better quality IMO.

Here's another thing to think about with EVs: the battery never gets lighter, while ICE cars do get lighter as fuel is consumed. The weight/load on EV is constant even as the battery drains. That is something I never even thought about before reading that article. The quoted ranges are with no accessories being used, so use the heater: mileage goes drops. Use A/C: mileage drops. Ambient temperature affects the battery efficiency. There are definitely a lot of benefits, but there are some things that will take time to mitigate as well.

I still plan to buy an EV this year, but I probably would not if it was going to be my only car. I have an ICE and a hybrid as well, so the EV can be the go to work and around-towner, which is the majority of my driving.
You must be in NoCal, but I think they moved that to Texas. I go to Cali about 2 times a month for work (pre-covid) I did the factory tour and test drive. Tesla is still miles ahead with battery tech, but others are catching up quickly. BMWs are not cheap, but at least they give 3/36000 no maintenance warranty included with the purchase and that includes oil changes, etc. Since I am driving about 10k a year now and don't keep cars more than 3 years, not an issue. ;)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
The batteries are intended to be reclaimed from the vehicle and put into use somewhere else as storage to stabilize the electrical grids of larger metro areas. Batteries lose some capacity during their life, but they don't need to have 100% capacity to go into some sort of storage cycle like this, which extends their useful life.

People said the life of a hybrid battery was 10yrs. There are a lot of Priuses on the road today that are over 10yrs old, including mine. Yes, they now use slightly more gas than when the battery was fresh, but they have exceeded projections and still get 40+ mpg. Nobody predicted that or the fact that landfills are NOT full of toxic dead batteries.

Now that EVs are taking off, battery technology will also take off. It already has, but what is going to really work and prove to be the "next" thing is not really there yet.

If I am not mistaken, China is the largest market for EVs right now because they finally realized they are part of that pollution problem.

You must be in NoCal, but I think they moved that to Texas. I go to Cali about 2 times a month for work (pre-covid) I did the factory tour and test drive. Tesla is still miles ahead with battery tech, but others are catching up quickly. BMWs are not cheap, but at least they give 3/36000 no maintenance warranty included with the purchase and that includes oil changes, etc. Since I am driving about 10k a year now and don't keep cars more than 3 years, not an issue. ;)
Tesla did not "move" to TX just like Apple didn't :) Tesla may call that their new "headquarters" as a finger to the IRS, but all their development is done right here. They recently bought out a whole section of land next door to the plant, converted some of the existing and are building a number of new buildings as well.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Recognizing that I'm probably going to get flamed for this long winded post, here goes:

As someone whose been in the automotive industry for decades, sometimes on the sales side but mostly on the service side, I tell every one of my customers who is considering an EV to STOP and go buy an internal combustion engine. I realize that I may come across as a dinosaur making this statement, but my reasons for making this statement come from years of watching the EV industry and closely following my trades magazines. I'll try to lay out my reasoning here:

1) The 6 month carbon payback is a lie, at least in North America. We have far too much electricity generated by coal and natural gas. As demand for electricity goes up, and it will increase thousands fold, not just doubling or tripling, older plants that have been shut down due to inefficiency will need to come online to "temporarily" while greener alternatives such as hydroelectric come online. Already this summer, some areas of California had to tell their residents to stop charging EVs or move their charging times as the grid wasn't able to support basic needs requirements.

2) Several recent tests show battery life reductions of 35% at the 7 yr mark. Of course this technology is always improving, but they're still showing life spans of 10 years. Then what do we do with the batteries? There is no recycling, yet, and nothing truly promising showing on the horizon. Our land fills will be full of these toxic batteries, and holding true to normal human behaviour, they will be there forever.

3) Two very reputable concerns currently show world wide shortages of Lithium and Cobalt by 2050, at TODAYS consumption levels. Imagine 10 years from now? This means other forms of electricity storage must be found, and quite frankly, there is again nothing on the near horizon.

4) Given that batteries 10 or 20 years from now will HAVE TO BE considerably different than they are right now, its doubtful that the new batteries will be backwards compatible in older EVs whose owners can no longer get the older technology batteries. And now we have more junk for the landfill. 20 year old ICE vehicles are still perfectly serviceable.

5) EV range is horrendous. It works for daily commutes, but what about family vacations? So now you need to buy an ICE to sit in a garage when you want to tow the boat to the lake or visit your summer cabin. Now you've just doubled down on your carbon footprint. And that rarely used vehicle sitting in your garage will deteriorate, even when its not being used.

6) EV doesn't work in cold climates. Three of my customers have the new Jeep Wrangler hybrid. This winter in the cold, they got 17 miles range out of their electrics before having to switch to the gas engine. 17 miles! And since the small gas engine "backup" is underpowered, they actually ended up spending more on gas this winter than I did with my Jeep Gladiator and the 3.6L gas engine, and MUCH more than my customer with his Gladiator diesel. So thats not overly green.

7) I've mentioned electrical infrastructure. So lets say that the genies who build the green energy producing plants, whether it be hydro, nuclear, solar or ????? (don't mention wind turbines, what a joke) are actually able to build enough plants to keep up to demand, who pays for this? The people using electricity of course. This infrastructure all costs money, and ALOT of it. Watch your electric bill go up 10x or more, and that won't just be in the electricity you use for charging your car, but in the power to your amps, your TVs, your ovens, etc etc.

I'm going to leave my reasoning and mutterings there for now, even though there are at least a dozen more reasons I could post. While I don't disagree we need to reduce our dependence on oil and oil based product, we need to find a better way. Hydrogen? Maybe. Electrical impulse through pavement? Maybe. I don't have that answer. What I do know is that EVs, in their current incarnation and any incarnation for the next decade are going to cause more issues than they resolve and leave their owners holding onto really expensive landfill refuse. Or perhaps we should stop villifying the poor old ICE engine and start pointing at the REAL causes of environmental pollution: Indian, Chinese, Korean and every other country whose manufacturing plants spews millions of tonnes of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
there is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin, but suffice it to say, points 5 & 6 are borderline BS !
 
P

Push

Audioholic
People said the life of a hybrid battery was 10yrs. There are a lot of Priuses on the road today that are over 10yrs old, including mine. Yes, they now use slightly more gas than when the battery was fresh, but they have exceeded projections and still get 40+ mpg. Nobody predicted that or the fact that landfills are NOT full of toxic dead batteries.

Now that EVs are taking off, battery technology will also take off. It already has, but what is going to really work and prove to be the "next" thing is not really there yet.

If I am not mistaken, China is the largest market for EVs right now because they finally realized they are part of that pollution
To be honest, you kind of prove my point. Your Prius is currently getting 40+ mpg. I have two customers driving 10 yr old Golfs getting 50+ mpg. No expensive batteries, no extra weight breaking down roads. And they've done this since new.

I just finished reading two 7yr studies of fully electric vehicles. They are showing on average a decrease of 35% capacity at the 7yr mark. Batteries do not degrade linearly, so conservative estimates have the batteries sitting at a 60% degradation at 10yrs. More pessimistics say 95% degradation. Probably more likely 80%.

China is following the wests lead and deflecting where the real issues lie. While certainly every bit helps, the idea of making ICE illegal is ludicrous. Make them more effecient. More and more so. At least until a proper alternative can be found. One that actually works for the world, not just pockets.
 
Last edited:
P

Push

Audioholic
there is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin, but suffice it to say, points 5 & 6 are borderline BS !
Ah yes, so it begins. When you can't argue with logic and reason, resort to bluster. How would you know my customers? You don't even know where I live. Short battery life in climates that routinely hit -30 and -40 is WELL documented. Don't bury your head in the sand. As for my other points, please feel free to dispute them with facts, figures and actual supported articles. Otherwise, do not call me a liar again. I have no vested interest in ICE or batteries or any other power source. As long as there are vehicles on the road, the boys in my shop will continue to fix them.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Ah yes, so it begins. When you can't argue with logic and reason, resort to bluster. How would you know my customers? You don't even know where I live. Short battery life in climates that routinely hit -30 and -40 is WELL documented. Don't bury your head in the sand. As for my other points, please feel free to dispute them with facts, figures and actual supported articles. Otherwise, do not call me a liar again. I have no vested interest in ICE or batteries or any other power source. As long as there are vehicles on the road, the boys in my shop will continue to fix them.
LOL kid ...........

#5, you state EV range is horrible, compared to what ? FWIW young man, you're the one making a statement without facts !

#6, EV don't 'work' in cold climates ??? again, you didn't provide 'your' definition of cold. Let me help you out with a few facts, the largest segment of people in the US live in the NE quadrant and in so far as our winters are concerned it gets cold, enough to shorten battery life yes but the EV's still work ! There effective range is shortened yes but so is the effective mileage that an ICE vehicle gets in the dead of winter !

So there ya go, I proved you're a liar !
 
P

Push

Audioholic
LOL kid ...........

#5, you state EV range is horrible, compared to what ? FWIW young man, you're the one making a statement without facts !

#6, EV don't 'work' in cold climates ??? again, you didn't provide 'your' definition of cold. Let me help you out with a few facts, the largest segment of people in the US live in the NE quadrant and in so far as our winters are concerned it gets cold, enough to shorten battery life yes but the EV's still work ! There effective range is shortened yes but so is the effective mileage that an ICE vehicle gets in the dead of winter !

So there ya go, I proved you're a liar !
I think I have a couple years on you, young fella, given how your responses are framed.

EV range is poor compared to virtually every new ICE vehicle. Come on, don't just spew rhetoric, actually think about what you're saying. Great EV range is now in that 3-400 mile mark. I can't think of a single ICE vehicle, non-performance, that gets less than 500 miles to a tank. Many are in that 6-700 mile range. And it takes about 5 minutes to completely refill an ICE vehicle. Fast charging, if you can find a fast charge system, is at best, 10 minutes to 80%.

#6 - You realize there are more people in the world than those that live in the USA, right? Cold climate isn't -5C. For a large number of people in the world, those are nothing temperatures. Hell, block heaters on new vehicles don't even engage until -18C. So no, EVs don't work in cold climates. I quoted three Jeeps with REAL world range in REAL WORLD circumstances, and you argued against it with no evidence, no practical experience and no intelligence. The only thing you've proven is that you're a waste of my time. When you come back with REAL numbers, feel free to post, otherwise I'll be ignoring you and spending my time with those who are worth answering.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Recognizing that I'm probably going to get flamed for this long winded post, here goes:

As someone whose been in the automotive industry for decades, sometimes on the sales side but mostly on the service side, I tell every one of my customers who is considering an EV to STOP and go buy an internal combustion engine. I realize that I may come across as a dinosaur making this statement, but my reasons for making this statement come from years of watching the EV industry and closely following my trades magazines. I'll try to lay out my reasoning here:

1) The 6 month carbon payback is a lie, at least in North America. We have far too much electricity generated by coal and natural gas. As demand for electricity goes up, and it will increase thousands fold, not just doubling or tripling, older plants that have been shut down due to inefficiency will need to come online to "temporarily" while greener alternatives such as hydroelectric come online. Already this summer, some areas of California had to tell their residents to stop charging EVs or move their charging times as the grid wasn't able to support basic needs requirements.

2) Several recent tests show battery life reductions of 35% at the 7 yr mark. Of course this technology is always improving, but they're still showing life spans of 10 years. Then what do we do with the batteries? There is no recycling, yet, and nothing truly promising showing on the horizon. Our land fills will be full of these toxic batteries, and holding true to normal human behaviour, they will be there forever.

3) Two very reputable concerns currently show world wide shortages of Lithium and Cobalt by 2050, at TODAYS consumption levels. Imagine 10 years from now? This means other forms of electricity storage must be found, and quite frankly, there is again nothing on the near horizon.

4) Given that batteries 10 or 20 years from now will HAVE TO BE considerably different than they are right now, its doubtful that the new batteries will be backwards compatible in older EVs whose owners can no longer get the older technology batteries. And now we have more junk for the landfill. 20 year old ICE vehicles are still perfectly serviceable.

5) EV range is horrendous. It works for daily commutes, but what about family vacations? So now you need to buy an ICE to sit in a garage when you want to tow the boat to the lake or visit your summer cabin. Now you've just doubled down on your carbon footprint. And that rarely used vehicle sitting in your garage will deteriorate, even when its not being used.

6) EV doesn't work in cold climates. Three of my customers have the new Jeep Wrangler hybrid. This winter in the cold, they got 17 miles range out of their electrics before having to switch to the gas engine. 17 miles! And since the small gas engine "backup" is underpowered, they actually ended up spending more on gas this winter than I did with my Jeep Gladiator and the 3.6L gas engine, and MUCH more than my customer with his Gladiator diesel. So thats not overly green.

7) I've mentioned electrical infrastructure. So lets say that the genies who build the green energy producing plants, whether it be hydro, nuclear, solar or ????? (don't mention wind turbines, what a joke) are actually able to build enough plants to keep up to demand, who pays for this? The people using electricity of course. This infrastructure all costs money, and ALOT of it. Watch your electric bill go up 10x or more, and that won't just be in the electricity you use for charging your car, but in the power to your amps, your TVs, your ovens, etc etc.

I'm going to leave my reasoning and mutterings there for now, even though there are at least a dozen more reasons I could post. While I don't disagree we need to reduce our dependence on oil and oil based product, we need to find a better way. Hydrogen? Maybe. Electrical impulse through pavement? Maybe. I don't have that answer. What I do know is that EVs, in their current incarnation and any incarnation for the next decade are going to cause more issues than they resolve and leave their owners holding onto really expensive landfill refuse. Or perhaps we should stop villifying the poor old ICE engine and start pointing at the REAL causes of environmental pollution: Indian, Chinese, Korean and every other country whose manufacturing plants spews millions of tonnes of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
Some of what you say is quite true, but I'd like to see the source of your info just to inform myself better since a lot of what you said also doesn't quite add up.

I 100% agree that the infrastructure getting beefed up is long overdue, but now even more so due to EVs. Charging needs standardization, charging needs to be widespread enough that even backwoods service stations have charging stations.

Battery tech has to get better for EVs to truly take over for ICE vehicles. 300-400 mile range isn't going to cut it. Sure, we could use bigger batteries, but those are heavy and reduce range. Double edge sword.

There are advances in batteries coming, but I'm not sure which will really take over for lithium. Read some things on aluminum and others, but nothing that's ready to go yet.

One thing that would help with our grid and electricity generation could be the solar roads and solar roofs. If those two sets of tech could get better and be more widely adopted our issues with grid and generation would decrease significantly. Solar is great, but panels need to be durable and cheaper and wider adoption will drive that. Competition will drive that too.

I had wanted a Tesla roof until they tripled their costs. Lots of folks that got $45k quotes canceled because they got new quotes for over $100k.

Renewable energy can't be too expensive. If it is, mass adoption will never happen.
 

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