Do you think it's worth going with a separate AV Processor?

VonMagnum

VonMagnum

Senior Audioholic
There's a certain irony in "separates" equipment, IMO. It should be MUCH cheaper as no amplifiers are included. But we live in the Bizarro World of audiophiles where separates somehow means high-end quality instead of saving money because you already have amplifiers or are planning on using something more powerful or active crossovers that might require external power or even adding some "Scatmos" style extra channels which require the main channels to be powered by external amps (since it's after the pre-amp stage), etc.

I miss the old Carver. I got my separates setup (that lets me use active crossovers with my Carver ribbon speakers) for quite a reasonable price back in the 1990s. I think the C5 preamp with dual zones, motorized volume control (with remote), loads of inputs, phono stage, tape loops for external processing to be reinserted and Sonic Holography processing to widen the soundstage for the MLP for I think around $400. The TFM-35x amps were like $500 for 250/350W (8/4 ohms). Those were reasonable prices for a high powered separates 2-channel system back then.

AVRs now are the deal of the century around August when D&Ms go to like half price before the new models come out. You get like 9-channels of power for $1200 or less and 11-channel processing and all kinds of extras like room processing and surround decoding. Get the Marantz processor only for 13-channels and you're looking at a similar price to the Denon 8500 without the included amps. WTF.... Marantz does not sound much (if any) different from a Denon. It has the HDAM preamps. Otherwise, it's more or less the same as a Denon (parent company uses most of the same parts). The 11-channel amp Marantz has a toroidal transformer in it, but not the processor only 13-channel model.

Now there are legit (non magical) uses for separates, IMO. As above, you might want/need more power or want to use active crossover speakers or even vent the heat in a separate closet from the preamp controls where you want to see the face from the listening position in a given installation design. But that shouldn't mean you pay for all the amps without getting any, IMO.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I may eventually sell all the separates, or just box them up, and replace them with one single AVR, just to make the room less cluttered and look better.:D
Yeah, it seems like the older I get, the more I think the same about AVP-to-AVR. :D
 
VonMagnum

VonMagnum

Senior Audioholic
I had no idea it costs that much...
It's hard to beat the prices of mass production. Those expensive D&M 11-channel processing (9-channel amp) models sure do become a LOT cheaper around August EVERY SINGLE YEAR. I'd never pay retail. I can wait a year for a new feature at this point. What's going to come out again at the "Atmos" level? DTS:X Pro would require more channels than 11 anyway to be useful, for example. If they switched to DIRAC even, I could wait a year to save $1300+.

Oddly, I keep thinking of switching my AVR back to the 7010 from the 7012 (I'd have to run auto-audyssey, but my current program was done on automatic anyway) but otherwise, it has front wide support and Audyssey DSX and HD Radio for that matter. In many ways, I think the 7012 was a downgrade.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Emotiva just email blasted the RMC-1L, a downscale version of the RMC-1 without the additional module slots, yet still presumably a step up from the XMC-2. Only 4K...
Who’s gonna do the htp1 / rmc1l shootout?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Emotiva just email blasted the RMC-1L, a downscale version of the RMC-1 without the additional module slots, yet still presumably a step up from the XMC-2. Only 4K...
Who’s gonna do the htp1 / rmc1l shootout?
Not Gene. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That's just mean.

Do continue.
Gene: Hi, I have a $4,000 Emotiva AVP that needs servicing.

Emotiva: Sorry dude, we don’t service our own products once the warranty expires. And your $4,000 AVP’s warranty just expired ONE MINUTE AGO.

Gene: :mad:

Emotiva: :mad:
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Gene: Hi, I have a $4,000 Emotiva AVP that needs servicing.

Emotiva: Sorry dude, we don’t service our own products once the warranty expires. And your $4,000 AVP’s warranty just expired ONE MINUTE AGO.

Gene: :mad:

Emotiva: :mad:

Oh, I know the post. Plus the 5 year max life expectancy ... oh, I know.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, it seems like the older I get, the more I think the same about AVP-to-AVR. :D
Losing external amplification is not how this works!
I just got my hands on Irv's pre-pro and I can't wait to put a system together around that.
No AVR w/ pre-outs, just good ole fashioned bad assery. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Losing external amplification is not how this works!
I just got my hands on Irv's pre-pro and I can't wait to put a system together around that.
No AVR w/ pre-outs, just good ole fashioned bad assery. :)
Yeah, my position still stands - use external amps if you use Pre-pros (AVP). Otherwise, just use the AVR.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Latest on the Emotiva RMC-1, testing by Amir and not so hot....https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-rmc-1-av-processor-review.11673/
Not really a surprise with the bugs since Emotiva is infamous with this.

Amir wrote: "I am starting to think there is not anyone performing these basic performance checks before the design is released to the public".

But the rebuttal to his statement is, "Does ANY of his measurements prove that these components don't sound GREAT?"

I mean it's not like his measurements are STANDARDS that have been used by these product engineers, right?

Should companies change their standards to conform to his measurements?

Anyway, hopefully someone will send their Yamaha CX-A5100 (which Gene says has SOTA measurements) to Amir so he can tear it apart with his measurement standards. :D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Not really a surprise with the bugs since Emotiva is infamous with this.

Amir wrote: "I am starting to think there is not anyone performing these basic performance checks before the design is released to the public".

But the rebuttal to his statement is, "Does ANY of his measurements prove that these components don't sound GREAT?"

I mean it's not like his measurements are STANDARDS that have been used by these product engineers, right?

Should companies change their standards to conform to his measurements?

Anyway, hopefully someone will send their Yamaha CX-A5100 (which Gene says has SOTA measurements) to Amir so he can tear it apart with his measurement standards. :D
Actually, Amir's measurements are the standard functions of an Audio Precision APx555 analyzer. Amir makes choices about which measurements he chooses to publish, and some of the measurement parameters are different than say John Atkinson chooses, but overall they look pretty comparable. Amir is very open that he's judging engineering excellence and not necessarily correlation to audibility, which is content specific and subject to an individual's ability to discern. Also, Amir is more bold in his conclusions because he isn't dependent on manufacturer samples (though he sometimes accepts them from brave companies), and he doesn't take advertising.

I think you're just annoyed that he concludes that some well-regarded A/V products actually don't measure as well as a dongle, and that runs counter to your repeated assertions that they're just as good. From an engineering execution perspective some are clearly not. I use a cheap Marantz AVR in our HT system, and always figured it wasn't SOTA stuff, and I don't care. Modern TV and movie sound is completely contrived and processed. It's good enough. On the other hand, I'd be very annoyed if my Benchmark pre-amp DAC measured poorly, but I wouldn't be annoyed with Amir about it. I'd be annoyed with Benchmark Media.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Not really a surprise with the bugs since Emotiva is infamous with this.

Amir wrote: "I am starting to think there is not anyone performing these basic performance checks before the design is released to the public".

But the rebuttal to his statement is, "Does ANY of his measurements prove that these components don't sound GREAT?"

I mean it's not like his measurements are STANDARDS that have been used by these product engineers, right?

Should companies change their standards to conform to his measurements?

Anyway, hopefully someone will send their Yamaha CX-A5100 (which Gene says has SOTA measurements) to Amir so he can tear it apart with his measurement standards. :D
Here's a flipside if these measurements were better if these products showed a higher standard of engineering could they sound even BETTER?

But that's probably like debating which came first the chicken or the egg one is never really going to know really :rolleyes:

But maybe if the engineering was more solid we could actually have companies release products for 4 to 6000 dollars that WORKS without the buyer basically being a beta tester :D

I'm starting to think that I'm going to have to wait for ATI or the higher up offerings to actually one day buy a processor that works basically straight out of the box.

I'm glad I went with the Anthem AVM 60 it may not be the best but at least it works so far without issue and the audio sounds great. I'm still not brave enough to donate it for Amir to test it tho NO WAY!!!! ;):D
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Actually, Amir's measurements are the standard functions of an Audio Precision APx555 analyzer. Amir makes choices about which measurements he chooses to publish, and some of the measurement parameters are different than say John Atkinson chooses, but overall they look pretty comparable. Amir is very open that he's judging engineering excellence and not necessarily correlation to audibility, which is content specific and subject to an individual's ability to discern. Also, Amir is more bold in his conclusions because he isn't dependent on manufacturer samples (though he sometimes accepts them from brave companies), and he doesn't take advertising.

I think you're just annoyed that he concludes that some well-regarded A/V products actually don't measure as well as a dongle, and that runs counter to your repeated assertions that they're just as good. From an engineering execution perspective some are clearly not. I use a cheap Marantz AVR in our HT system, and always figured it wasn't SOTA stuff, and I don't care. Modern TV and movie sound is completely contrived and processed. It's good enough. On the other hand, I'd be very annoyed if my Benchmark pre-amp DAC measured poorly, but I wouldn't be annoyed with Amir about it. I'd be annoyed with Benchmark Media.
I personally enjoy Amirs site I like the fact he doesn't take advertisements and he doesn't have to pull any punches on his results or his opinions what we do with those opinions are up to each one of us

I also have been pulling out the popcorn and watching the threads on AVS and Emotiva after his measurements right now. It's better then a movie lately :p
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I use a cheap Marantz AVR in our HT system, and always figured it wasn't SOTA stuff, and I don't care. Modern TV and movie sound is completely contrived and processed. It's good enough. On the other hand, I'd be very annoyed if my Benchmark pre-amp DAC measured poorly, but I wouldn't be annoyed with Amir about it. I'd be annoyed with Benchmark Media.
Great points! I find myself enjoying my cheap AVR-X4400H based HT more than when I was using the $3599 (MSRP in 2012/2013) AV8801. It just seems to sound better overall, but I think it is the effects of expectation biased working in reverse gear. :D

And I am a little annoyed that my HA-1 and Sonica did not measure particularly well, much worse than the cheaper UDP-205 (relatively speaking), though they both sound transparent enough to me and the HA-1 did manage to get Amir to say "the HA-1 barely squeezes into top tier of all DACs tested.." So I can understand very well your point about the much more expensive Benchmark if it measured poorly, though I am sure it would measure well.
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
I personally enjoy Amirs site I like the fact he doesn't take advertisements and he doesn't have to pull any punches on his results or his opinions what we do with those opinions are up to each one of us
Me too..Very resourceful.
 

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