Do you think it's worth going with a separate AV Processor?

D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
I didn't read his review, but he didn't say that a $15 dongle outperforms the HTP-1? :D

I think he said that about the Marantz AV8805.

Like @Irvrobinson says, I think Amir's measurements are probably geared toward ENGINEERS and high-tech people. That's not me. :D

Now if he were to provide the same standards as Gene does (SNR, THD+N, Crosstalk, FF, Pre-out Voltage), then I might be more prone to look at Amir's reviews.

Like I said, S&V measured the Marantz AV8802: SNR 130dB, XTalk 92dB, THD 0.008%, etc. Does the AV8805 measure the SAME?

If Amir were to measure the AV8802, would he also say a $15 dongle outperforms it?
GEEENE!!! PEEEENG!!! WE NEED HELP HERE!!! Sorry couldn't resist it! Lmao!!!

Also Emotiva published there test results on there forum and gave there reasons why Amirs results didn't measure as well as there interesting stuff

Although they didn't run the tests from 0db like he did curious why they didn't do that

And one owner on the site keeps running the same tests and keeps getting the same results Amir did not Emotivas both tests reference levels on his where run both ways Amirs and then Emotivas and they still come out like Amirs

Oh boy LET the games begin!!! :D
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Yeah for a guy who helped bring us Microsoft audio I take Amir's opinions with a grain of salt :) I remember his ranting about inaudible jitter measurements with Arny K. His comparing limited functionality dac boxes with an avr or pre-pro....meh. I do find it somewhat funny Amir can't figure out how to connect the last couple of hdmi based processors up via hdmi....
Yeah I got a kick out of the HDMI thing too good catch!!! I wonder if the HDMI measurements would change anything do you know?
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Field Marshall
GEEENE!!! PEEEENG!!! WE NEED HELP HERE!!! Sorry couldn't resist it! Lmao!!!

Also Emotiva published there test results on there forum and gave there reasons why Amirs results didn't measure as well as there interesting stuff

Although they didn't run the tests from 0db like he did curious why they didn't do that

And one owner on the site keeps running the same tests and keeps getting the same results Amir did not Emotivas both tests reference levels on his where run both ways Amirs and then Emotivas and they still come out like Amirs

Oh boy LET the games begin!!! :D
Dan, it’s been years since I went in the EMO site, they do get upset very quickly if anyone brings up Kool-Aid. :D
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Field Marshall
Yeah, PENG! where you at! ;) We need your Expertise!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
What should we think if Gene says the CX-A5100 has SOTA measurements and Amir says that the CX-A5100 is a "failure" that can't measure better than a $15 dongle?
There is no chance he would say that, except may be in a super narrow sense and that he wanted to make a point. In the case of the Emo RMC-1, he cited a $25 dongle that did better, but only from -10 dB and beyond and only in terms of intermodulation distortions. So he's not saying it is bad, like audible bad (from the graph it looks like -72 dB, i.e. 0.025%), but his point, is why, why, why.., and that, to me is a legit question.

If we were to ignore and forgive such inaudible but relatively poor specs for a >$3,500 so called "separate" AVP/C, then why pay more for them instead of just getting an AVR, especially for people who only need 5 to 7 or 9 to 11 channels of processing? In fact, if one is to base his/her decision on measurements, there really aren't good practical reasons not to simply go with the likes of the AVR-X3500H, RX-A1080, Sony STR-Z100ES, Pioneer VSX-LX504 or even the MRX-520 if the target power amps are in the 20-250 WPC range, that's just so the RX-A1080's limited output voltage won't be much of an issue.

To me, his test results are at least detailed enough to show what golden ears perceived night and day difference between one of those AVR and the $3,000 to $5,000 AVP/C are highly questionable, just to be polite and open minded. That's great service, and that reminds me to donate again, but it would be nice to do it when the C$ gets ahead a little.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
If anyone is curious what the Emo fans have to say here's where the test results were introduced into the owner's thread there https://emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/53933/official-rmc-1-owners-thread?page=341

Yeah I got a kick out of the HDMI thing too good catch!!! I wonder if the HDMI measurements would change anything do you know?
I think they commented on that in the discussion that followed the review. I believe they said it likely would be no better than usb but don't know if that's accurate or why that might be.....maybe @PENG can?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@PENG can elaborate on the AV8802 measurements, but I think S&V measured SNR at 130.38dB, Crosstalk 92.21 dB, THD+N 0.008%, FR 20Hz-20kHz @ -0.04dB/-0.01dB. Are these NOT SOTA numbers?

But I also assumed the AV8805 would measure as well as the AV8802. I could be wrong. :D
We both know Amir's bench test results for the AV8805 would rank about the same (+/- 1 to 2 dB) as Gene's for the CX-A5100. Those results are also comparable, again within 1-2 dB in most cases, to that of the AV8802A.

It seems Amir thinks the Marantz AV8805 and many other components have "failed" his test.
I didn't get that impression at all, but may be I missed something. I thought I read that review thoroughly. Amir did not say the word "failed.." anyway but in his conclusions he did say:

"I would say buy the Marantz AV8805 because it has the features not because you think it will provide reference quality audio performance. It will not."

That, seems to me like a qualified recommendation, and I am sure had it not been his dislike of Marantz's choice of the slow roll off filters, he would have given the 8805 a better reception.

Regarding the 8805 vs 8802, in the hometheaterhifi review, the reviewer for the subjective part said:

"The AV8805 continues to deliver an immersive theater-like experience and is a worthy update to the prior flagship Marantz AV8802/AV8802A processor. "

In the objective/measurement part by Dr. Rich, he noted the following:

"Harmonic distortion has not improved from the AV8802 to the AV8805 as was expected from the new chips. The change in the worst-case THD specification between the chips used in the AV8802 and AV8805 points to a 50% distortion reduction. We know the distortion is not from the AKM AK4490 DAC since the THD increased as we changed the output level from 2VRMS to 4VRMS with the volume control.

It is possible the HDAM discrete circuits past the new analog ICs are the dominant distortion source. The only way to find out is to open up the case and start probing internal boards which is not something we do here at Secrets."


 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
Yeah, I was not annoyed at all. I don't even read his reviews, except for when PENG or KEW or someone posts links to his reviews and I look at some graphs.

Hopefully someone (definitely not I :D) will loan Amir the CX-A5100 so that we can see the merits of his measurements.

I think most of us feel like Gene's measurements are gold standard.

But we'll see. :D

On another note, what I am 100% ANNOYED about is that my 3YO GE Electric Range's 12" 3600-Watt Burner burned out and I have to replace the burner, which will cost me $150 from Amazon and about 1 hour of YouTube video watching. :mad:

So Amir's reviews don't come close to annoying me. Real life crap annoys me.
Same happened with my Kitchen Aid cook top. Had it a year and a half and the touch control is acting up. MINIMUM of $250 part plus hoping that's the actual faulty part. I just got a home warranty so they get to take care of it.

Covers electronics too. Buddy has the same one and has used it multiple times.

Now, back to graphs and stuff I kind of understand.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
Yeah them Emotiva fanboys do get upset if anyone says anything about EMO gear. Emotiva use to put out some good amps but they changed up about every two years and if that. Today I wouldn’t even think of getting anything Emotiva.
I'm not the engineer either.

While I never gave any thought to my LCR being powered by an Emo, but ultimately bought 2 Emo amps (A500 and A800 for surround and whole house duty) and to date no complaints.

For the purpose and the amount I paid, I'm content, but if I had it to do over again, I probably would've just bought the A800 for whole house. I really wish I had bought 5 monos for the 5 ch, and the Outlaw 5000 for the atmos but the outlaw 5 ch wasn't in stock at the time.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Honestly from what he measured I have to say out of all the prepro's coming out so far Monoprices HTP-1 is looking the best at least it's the least glitchy
Overall I would say he ranked the Monopirce about the same as the AV8805, that is: "buy it (the 8805) for the features not because you think it will provide reference quality audio performance. It will not; and "Buy this product (the HTP-1) because you want its features, not because you think the $4,000 is bringing you superlative objective audio performance."

The Monoprice did measure a few dB better in THD+N and about the same in IMD. In the ranking chart the Monprice THD+N was about 10 dB better but that's only because he choose the measured SINAD using the reduced output voltage, from 4 V for 8805 to 2.7 V for the Monoprice.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
GEEENE!!! PEEEENG!!! WE NEED HELP HERE!!! Sorry couldn't resist it! Lmao!!!

Also Emotiva published there test results on there forum and gave there reasons why Amirs results didn't measure as well as there interesting stuff

Although they didn't run the tests from 0db like he did curious why they didn't do that

And one owner on the site keeps running the same tests and keeps getting the same results Amir did not Emotivas both tests reference levels on his where run both ways Amirs and then Emotivas and they still come out like Amirs

Oh boy LET the games begin!!! :D
The boss want me to shovel snow now so can't you wait a couple hours?:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Same happened with my Kitchen Aid cook top. Had it a year and a half and the touch control is acting up. MINIMUM of $250 part plus hoping that's the actual faulty part. I just got a home warranty so they get to take care of it.

Covers electronics too. Buddy has the same one and has used it multiple times.

Now, back to graphs and stuff I kind of understand.
Yep. Real life craps that truly annoys us. :D
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
The boss want me to shovel snow now so can't you wait a couple hours?:D
you still get snow in Ontario ;-)? I liked up there in Toronto when I was there...very cold and not much snow :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
We both know Amir's bench test results for the AV8805 would rank about the same (+/- 1 to 2 dB) as Gene's for the CX-A5100. Those results are also comparable, again within 1-2 dB in most cases, to that of the AV8802A.



I didn't get that impression at all, but may be I missed something. I thought I read that review thoroughly. Amir did not say the word "failed.." anyway but in his conclusions he did say:

"I would say buy the Marantz AV8805 because it has the features not because you think it will provide reference quality audio performance. It will not."

That, seems to me like a qualified recommendation, and I am sure had it not been his dislike of Marantz's choice of the slow roll off filters, he would have given the 8805 a better reception.

Regarding the 8805 vs 8802, in the hometheaterhifi review, the reviewer for the subjective part said:

"The AV8805 continues to deliver an immersive theater-like experience and is a worthy update to the prior flagship Marantz AV8802/AV8802A processor. "

In the objective/measurement part by Dr. Rich, he noted the following:

"Harmonic distortion has not improved from the AV8802 to the AV8805 as was expected from the new chips. The change in the worst-case THD specification between the chips used in the AV8802 and AV8805 points to a 50% distortion reduction. We know the distortion is not from the AKM AK4490 DAC since the THD increased as we changed the output level from 2VRMS to 4VRMS with the volume control.

It is possible the HDAM discrete circuits past the new analog ICs are the dominant distortion source. The only way to find out is to open up the case and start probing internal boards which is not something we do here at Secrets."


So if the CX-A5100 measures the same as the AV8805 using Amir's standards, then do you think Amir would call the CX-A5100 "SOTA"? :D

That's my point. If Amir says the measurements for the CX-A5100 is NOT SOTA, will it still considered SOTA because Gene's measurements show that it is SOTA?
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
Overall I would say he ranked the Monopirce about the same as the AV8805, that is: "buy it (the 8805) for the features not because you think it will provide reference quality audio performance. It will not; and "Buy this product (the HTP-1) because you want its features, not because you think the $4,000 is bringing you superlative objective audio performance."

The Monoprice did measure a few dB better in THD+N and about the same in IMD. In the ranking chart the Monprice THD+N was about 10 dB better but that's only because he choose the measured SINAD using the reduced output voltage, from 4 V for 8805 to 2.7 V for the Monoprice.
So in your opinion and your experience what out there can we buy that brings you superlative audio performance? Are there any products out there that actually pull it off? I know your busy so when you get time I'd appreciate your insights
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Ninja
So if the CX-A5100 measures the same as the AV8805 using Amir's standards, then do you think Amir would call the CX-A5100 "SOTA"? :D

That's my point. If Amir says the measurements for the CX-A5100 is NOT SOTA, will it still considered SOTA because Gene's measurements show that it is SOTA?
I can see where your coming from I'm looking at all these results and going sh@$! Where can I take 4 to 6000 buckaroos and actually find something high quality with audio? Is there anything out there?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I can see where your coming from I'm looking at all these results and going sh@$! Where can I take 4 to 6000 buckaroos and actually find something high quality with audio? Is there anything out there?
According to Amir, nothing out there is SOTA. :D

If manufacturers want SOTA measurements, they have to abide the same measurement standards he uses.

Maybe Emotiva could hire Amir to do all the measurements BEFORE production. Once Emotiva can produce a product that gets SOTA measurements from Amir, then they can mass produce. Unfortunately, even with SOTA measurement, the Emotiva will still have a million bugs. :D
 

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