Do you think it's worth going with a separate AV Processor?

[lovinthehd]

If the content is 100db louder than the noise, such as it is in all those components, then I doubt it would be audible.
What does XT refer to?

All those specs qualify as inaudible in use. He's using XT as an abbreviation for crosstalk (channel separation). All are excellent specs for such. I remember my Marantz 2270 was spec'd for 40dB, and many phono cartridges less than that. Douglas Self, an amp designer, said "Interchannel crosstalk can obviously degrade stereo separation, but the effect is not detectable until it is worse than 20dB, which would be a very bad amplifier indeed"

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[moves]

All those specs qualify as inaudible in use. He's using XT as an abbreviation for crosstalk (channel separation). All are excellent specs for such. I remember my Marantz 2270 was spec'd for 40dB, and many phono cartridges less than that. Douglas Self, an amp designer, said "Interchannel crosstalk can obviously degrade stereo separation, but the effect is not detectable until it is worse than 20dB, which would be a very bad amplifier indeed"

• https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/rating/list?content_type=post&content_id=1315488&rating_type_category_id=3

Makes sense.... Didn't think it was that important as they all looked like great specs

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Makes sense.... Didn't think it was that important as they all looked like great specs

Even $300 AVRs have great enough SNR, XT, FR, THD that are completely inaudible, unless there is something wrong with the unit that's causing noise.

For example, the $300 MSRP Yamaha RX-V377 has SNR of 111dBA and XT 77dB.

But sometimes we can't help talking about these inaudible numbers.

So basically, with any AVR and Pre-pros, the only things that truly matter are the price, features, and aesthetics.

People who must have Dirac and get a Dirac unit. People who love ARC, can get an Anthem unit. People who don't care, can get any of these units.

 

[ParisB]

Dirac vs Audyssey vs YPAO in the end will very much depend on the room you're in. I believe that Dirac is good, but I was able to get a pretty flat response in my room with YPAO, and I have the graphs to prove it.

So don't discount other room EQ software. It all depends on your room, and you'll always want to confirm with REW afterwards to see if it indeed made a difference.

I know of at least one example where Dirac made the sound worse (in the freq response graph anyway). There is no holy grail

I agree. The whole movement of thumping chests and proclaiming Dirac trumps all is misleading.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I agree. The whole movement of thumping chests and proclaiming Dirac trumps all is misleading.

Hopefully @PENG will be able to test Dirac in his system.

It's impossible to prove which Room-EQ SUBJECTIVE sounds best. Opinions are all over creation.

The best we can do is see which one produces the flattest response with the same system.

 

[PENG]

If I had to do it over again in the new theater room. I'd have just used the X4400H and saved some coin. Especially since all my runs are short so I'm just going unbalanced on the connects don't get me wrong tho the anthem does sound lovely

Same here, replaced the >$3,000 Marantz AV8801 (that I loved) with a X4400H and never missed the Marantz, I am very happy and impressed with the Denon so far.

 

[PENG]

Hopefully @PENG will be able to test Dirac in his system.

It's impossible to prove which Room-EQ SUBJECTIVE sounds best. Opinions are all over creation.

The best we can do is see which one produces the flattest response with the same system.

Funny you mentioned it, I have been testing it in my two channel system. I really like the user interface, but so far I have not had enough listening time to comment too much on "sound quality", and am still trying to figure out how to run REW within J River. Until then, I have nothing objective to show, unfortunately.

 

[PENG]

If the content is 100db louder than the noise, such as it is in all those components, then I doubt it would be audible.
What does XT refer to?

What content would that be? To be 100 dB louder than the noise floor of a lot of HT rooms of ordinary people, you need 130 dB or louder. There aren't too many movie contents that have even just transient contents of >110 dB, let along average spl.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Funny you mentioned it, I have been testing it in my two channel system. I really like the user interface, but so far I have not had enough listening time to comment too much on "sound quality", and am still trying to figure out how to run REW within J River. Until then, I have nothing objective to show, unfortunately.

Well at least you have the Dirac to test. Is this a trial or did you buy it?

 

[panteragstk]

I was not impressed with the NADs measurements from the previous link but I do like their modular designs.... But at 6k us and 8k plus tax cad is steeeeeep... The Yamaha is a great choice for half the cost of the nad.

The issue with modular designed Pre/Pro or AVR is that I don't think many, if any, have ever gotten an upgraded module. Maybe an HDMI board update, but that's about it. They all tout future proof, but IIRC it hasn't happened yet.

I'm with @PENG, my Denon 4300h has done VERY well in my theater. Audyssey is fine, but it isn't the end all to RC. Knowing how to set things up is MUCH more important. I found that out when my settings got jacked up and ruined my bass. Audyssey said things were fine. Found out what setting I had apparently changed, things went back to pretty much perfect (at least for my room).

Fancy RC is just a selling point. Go with someone reputable that builds tons of equipment with few failures. High end is really just bragging rights in the end, no matter the salary. Paying more money for less doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[moves]

What content would that be? To be 100 dB louder than the noise floor of a lot of HT rooms of ordinary people, you need 130 dB or louder. There aren't too many movie contents that have even just transient contents of >110 dB, let along average spl.

I thought that's what the definition of SNR was? I could be wrong.

 

[moves]

The issue with modular designed Pre/Pro or AVR is that I don't think many, if any, have ever gotten an upgraded module. Maybe an HDMI board update, but that's about it. They all tout future proof, but IIRC it hasn't happened yet.

I'm with @PENG, my Denon 4300h has done VERY well in my theater. Audyssey is fine, but it isn't the end all to RC. Knowing how to set things up is MUCH more important. I found that out when my settings got jacked up and ruined my bass. Audyssey said things were fine. Found out what setting I had apparently changed, things went back to pretty much perfect (at least for my room).

Fancy RC is just a selling point. Go with someone reputable that builds tons of equipment with few failures. High end is really just bragging rights in the end, no matter the salary. Paying more money for less doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

What about updating the codecs when new ones come out? DTS xxxxxx etc...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think most clients who buy $20K Pre-pros don’t think much about future-proofs. They’ll just buy a new one in a few years.

The rest of us who think about future-proofs aren’t in the market for $20K Pre-pros.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Same here, replaced the >$3,000 Marantz AV8801 (that I loved) with a X4400H and never missed the Marantz, I am very happy and impressed with the Denon so far.

Well, the key is that you still own a working pre-pro. So you’re still a part of the Separates Club. You could own a dozen AVRs and still be a part of the Separates Club.

Now get rid of your Pre-pro. Then we’ll see how long this AVR-phase of yours last. Haha.

 

[panteragstk]

What about updating the codecs when new ones come out? DTS xxxxxx etc...

I know of promises that the modular option would be able to accommodate this, but new codecs don't come around very often. Every decade or so.

 

[sakete]

I know of promises that the modular option would be able to accommodate this, but new codecs don't come around very often. Every decade or so.

I think the modular setup is nice in theory. But when you look at for example NAD, the cost of a new module is almost the cost of a new AVR. It's really not that much more affordable (one of the main supposed benefits), and you're forced to stick with one brand. And as we all know, what's good today can be bad tomorrow.

 

[PENG]

Well, the key is that you still own a working pre-pro. So you’re still a part of the Separates Club. You could own a dozen AVRs and still be a part of the Separates Club.

Now get rid of your Pre-pro. Then we’ll see how long this AVR-phase of yours last. Haha.

My AV8801 is now used strictly in my two channel setups so I can use Audyssey and Dirac Live (yes you guessed right, beta version). I have been using separates for the two channel setups for years, the prepro is only involved when I want to use DRC, sometimes.. It is possible that I may eventually sell all the separates, or just box them up, and replace them with one single AVR, just to make the room less cluttered and look better.

 

[PENG]

I thought that's what the definition of SNR was? I could be wrong.

Just to be clear, I have no doubt you know what SNR is. I was only puzzled by your remark as quoted below, and only the highlighted part:

"If the content is 100db louder than the noise, such as it is in all those components, then I doubt it would be audible."

Am I right to assume you were talking about the recently linked reviews of the NAD T758 V3, Anthem MRX 520, or the Yamaha RX-A1080? If it was something else then please ignore my questions.

If you were in fact referring to the recently tested AVRs over there, none of them came close to -100 dB if referenced to 1 W output. To me, SNR at rated power, or pre out output are not very helpful as most people don't push their amps anywhere near their output limits. My amps typically would average below 0.2 to 0.4 W per channel when I listen to music, slightly higher for movies, but obviously ommv..

Below are the SNR (for simplicity I rounded them to 1 decimal place and use the worse channel) measured by Audiosciencereviews.com on the units below:

Analog in

T758 V3 - 89.5 dB at rated output
RX-A1080 - 101.3 dB at 5 W output
MRX 520 - SNR not measured, but DR at rated should be the numerically the same and it was 99.98 dB, but was at rated pre out of 2V, that's above rated power output.

So at 1 W, the the NAD would be in the neighborhood of -70 dB and that would be well below CD quality (16 bit, or 96 dB).

The Yamaha did a lot better, but at 0.5 W output, SNR would be down to about 88 dB, still well below CD's.

Of the 3 that site recently measured, the Anthem had the best SNR but as noted, he measured it at 2V output, that means if referred back to the same level as the others, it would fall short of CD quality too.

It is very difficult to use their measurement to compare gear because his reference points are not always consistently the same. I (probably others too) have given him some suggestions, now that he started to measure more AVR types of gear.

I do agree "all" of those tested would not be a concern for a lot of people, in terms of audibility of the noise related issues. I don't think it is because of the SNR of their gear being good or bad enough on paper, but most likely because a lot of people don't have very quiet rooms to begin with but now this is just my guess.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

a lot of people don't have very quiet rooms

Definitely not too quiet when the HVAC system is blowing out air.

Has anyone measured SNR of speakers?

 

[PENG]

Definitely not too quiet when the HVAC system is blowing out air.

Has anyone measured SNR of speakers?

You meant powered speakers right?