Denon AVR-X3600H vs AVR-X4700H Measurement Report

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I trust you are correct and assume he did, but you included the lower models:

So, for me, if questioning Yamaha's rationale, we should not be asking about the 2 Vrms value but the 1.2 1.4* Vrms that Gene suggests as the limit on the A860! 2 Vrms is not that bad!


I think this also depends on the amp's capability, but ...
Yeah, 2 Vrms is not terrible, 1.4 Vrms is! That is my point! Yamaha should address the 1.4 Vrms which reflects a serious lapse of performance (not the 2.0 which is a marginal lapse of performance)!
I am not willing to give Yamaha a pass on the A860 just because it is a lower level AVR at $900!

* I remembered it as 1.2 Vrms, but went back to Gene's review to double check. 1.6 Vrms had excessive FFT distortion and 1.0 Vrms was clean. 1.4 Vrms is the value Gene seems to suggest as an effective max. Either way, it is poor performance (and decidedly below the capability of the competitors).

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A860 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X AV receiver is packed with excellent networking features but it does fall short on power delivery making our recommendation conditional based on usage.

www.audioholics.com

Yeah, would seem nice if Yamaha would increase voltage to 2V on the A860.

Would like to hear from Yamaha about why this is.

The A860 shuts down at 1.9V.

At 1.6V, it is about -46dB, which is about 0.5% THD+N. Definitely not SOTA at 1.6V.

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A860 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X AV receiver is packed with excellent networking features but it does fall short on power delivery making our recommendation conditional based on usage.

www.audioholics.com

 

[Zimberto Caliente]

I don't agree with the pompous self-righteous opening post. Jealousy is such an ugly thing. Amir performed valid tests on the Denon unit and the data doesn't lie. There is a significant problem with the X4700H and Denon seems intent on directing the focus away from it. They also appear to have acquired an ally on this website. This will backfire on them and their allies as it becomes obvious that the issue affects the entire line of Denon and Marantz receivers. What will our denier-in-cheif here say then, I wonder? We shall see some backwards bicycling I suspect.

 

[roadwarrior]

I don't agree with the pompous self-righteous opening post. Jealousy is such an ugly thing. Amir performed valid tests on the Denon unit and the data doesn't lie. There is a significant problem with the X4700H and Denon seems intent on directing the focus away from it. They also appear to have acquired an ally on this website. This will backfire on them and their allies as it becomes obvious that the issue affects the entire line of Denon and Marantz receivers. What will our denier-in-cheif here say then, I wonder? We shall see some backwards bicycling I suspect.

There is no significant problem with the 2020 Denon X4700H according to your own favorite websites most recent review.


These new measurements fully supersede the data in the original review. So please do not refer to the other set anymore


The results are far better than in the original review and now actually outperforms the Coax input

Tested 8th best out of 27 AVR/ processors for THD+N

The IMD performance is also much improved

Regardless, we are back to the type of performance I expect to see in good AVRs.

Noise floor in J-test is now the same for both inputs which is good

Even though I use a lot of filtering, noise can still impact linearity test. Here are the much improved results

This is extremely good, showing accuracy to almost 20 bits!

Gone are the high intermodulation spikes caused by overflow condition previously. And we once again land on better than CD distortion-free range which is good.

Likewise the original THD+N vs frequency test showed high level of distortion+noise+spurious tones which is now much improved

This is actually above average for an amplifier

Maybe it never digitizes this input? Anyway, it is good to see such wide bandwidth and dead flat response in audible band.

Dynamic range is nearly as good as 3600H


Conclusions
It goes without saying that new measurements completely changes my outlook on AVR-X4700H. It now ranks in the upper tier of home theater AVRs. Not only that, the company behind it is excellent to work with. Despite my harsh original review, they came to the table ready to work through this with no ill will. I am especially appreciative of Rainer Finck of Denon/Marantz Europe who spent many hours with me on the phone and in email to brainstorm. He was also the conduit to Denon Engineering in Japan which worked hard to chase any theory we came up with. It was also a pleasure to work with Sound United personnel in US in final resolution and planning of this update. This was one of the best experiences I have had working with a company on a review!




I am happy to now recommend the AVR-X4700H

 

[gene]

I don't agree with the pompous self-righteous opening post. Jealousy is such an ugly thing. Amir performed valid tests on the Denon unit and the data doesn't lie. There is a significant problem with the X4700H and Denon seems intent on directing the focus away from it. They also appear to have acquired an ally on this website. This will backfire on them and their allies as it becomes obvious that the issue affects the entire line of Denon and Marantz receivers. What will our denier-in-cheif here say then, I wonder? We shall see some backwards bicycling I suspect.

FROM ASR: "For reasons that are unknown at this point but is being investigated by Denon engineering, when feeding only two channels to AVR but in 8 channel configuration, and the AVR is configured as just Left and Right speakers, the noise level goes up substantially and there is potential for clipping on maximum level signal. "

JUST to be clear he configured a multch receiver as 2CH, then took a PC configured as multichannel but forced it only to produce 2CH via HDMI. This is a configuration setup that will never happen in real world usage and quiet frankly an amateur mistake. I would never test a multich HDMI product like this.

I've been reviewing Denon/Marantz receivers for 20 years and there has NEVER been a "major" problem with their designs that would cause them to stop the production lines or do a recall. The whole test scenario from ASR is unrealistic and will never come up in real world usage. I've been down that rabbit hole many times when testing gear but usually had the courtesy and demeanor to point these things out to the reader rather than trying to instill fear tactics. Note how Amir now loves the product in his second review. Speaks volumes for the overreaction.

 

[gene]

Yeah, would seem nice if Yamaha would increase voltage to 2V on the A860.

Would like to hear from Yamaha about why this is.

The A860 shuts down at 1.9V.

At 1.6V, it is about -46dB, which is about 0.5% THD+N. Definitely not SOTA at 1.6V.

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A860 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X AV receiver is packed with excellent networking features but it does fall short on power delivery making our recommendation conditional based on usage.

www.audioholics.com

The preamp out of that receiver was a bit weak as I noted. I Know Yamaha has made improvements on later models I've tested.

 

[Zimberto Caliente]

I'm looking at the data more than Amir's comments. The data in the original review is still valid and represents a serious issue that will affect many owners. I'm not happy about how Amir disowned his original review but its still there as a testament to a real problem.

 

[gene]

I'm looking at the data more than Amir's comments. The data in the original review is still valid and represents a serious issue that will affect many owners. I'm not happy about how Amir disowned his original review but its still there as a testament to a real problem.

Really? How many devices configured for 8CH will be forced to play 2CH while still mapped in an 8CH assignment, then have the receiver purposely set for 2CH and create a channel mapping issue? I've NEVER seen this happen since the beginnings of HDMI transmission for consumer gear.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

0.005805%, for those who prefer to read %, not really that bad right!! Not very stable though at that level, but then only peaks of like 20 dB would get you there, not normal levels so for a lot of people running something like a MCA525 or Monolith 200WX5, I don't see any need to worry.

I‘d say 0.005805% THD is pretty great.

And as some of us (including @KEW) have already concluded months ago based on Gene’s reviews, for people who want an external 200WPC amp, we would recommend the A1080, 2080, and 3080.

 

[tparm]

Really? How many devices configured for 8CH will be forced to play 2CH while still mapped in an 8CH assignment, then have the receiver purposely set for 2CH and create a channel mapping issue? I've NEVER seen this happen since the beginnings of HDMI transmission for consumer gear.

I've got to say that I appreciate both ASR's detailed testing and @gene informative articles and reviews of many types of products. I think both have a place are important to us consumers and especially one's such as myself who may be less educated on how things work than others on both forums.

I agree with Gene and have posted as such on ASR that I can't imagine the "bug" that was found affecting many users.

What I feel no one benefits from is the back and forth BS on both forums by the Admin/Founders and the members. Now, members will be members and what ever.... But the personal attacks (strong word, perhaps too strong) and need to defend one's position comes across as petty. Once again, I feel Audioholics is one of the most informative sites out there and ASR, while not perfect, is important as a third party who to his benefit has literally engaged manufacturers and improved their products in a couple of cases and will likely continue as a collaborative effort (as Gene has done in the past).

I hooked/set up my X4700 last night and watched Midway through my current 5.0.2 system and enjoyed it greatly. I must add, that aside from the sound, I had forgotten how freaking easy it is to set up and use D+M products (coming from NAD and then Arcam). This evening I plan to A/B my Audiolab 6000N via analog to Heos and continue to build my system in anticipation of moving in to my new home in 10 months (boo, I am not a ptient person).

Trevor

 

[Pogre]

I don't agree with the pompous self-righteous opening post. Jealousy is such an ugly thing. Amir performed valid tests on the Denon unit and the data doesn't lie. There is a significant problem with the X4700H and Denon seems intent on directing the focus away from it. They also appear to have acquired an ally on this website. This will backfire on them and their allies as it becomes obvious that the issue affects the entire line of Denon and Marantz receivers. What will our denier-in-cheif here say then, I wonder? We shall see some backwards bicycling I suspect.

Sure, he performed valid tests. He just did it in a very unrealistic way that almost no one would encounter, had to take back the review, republish it and has completely changed his tune.

What significant problem are you talking about?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My post was in response to your post about using YPAO and PEW for EQ'ing your system.
How would you expect Yamaha to deal with EQ and how would you deal with the peaks I mentioned given the fixed frequencies of Yamaha's PEQ!

That's a good point.

My question is, can the Auto-EQ software (Audyssey, Dirac, Trinnov) use ANY frequency points in increments of 1Hz (90Hz, 91Hz, 92Hz, 93Hz, etc.), or just certain frequency points like the ones I mentioned for the Yamaha PEQ?

I noticed that the other PEQ (whether 7-Band or 12-band) also have fixed frequency points, not "infinite points" in 1Hz increments.

Since all these PEQ have fixed frequency points, is it the same way with the Auto-EQ frequency points?

 

[Pogre]

That's a good point.

My question is, can the Auto-EQ software (Audyssey, Dirac, Trinnov) use ANY frequency points in increments of 1Hz (90Hz, 91Hz, 92Hz, 93Hz, etc.), or just certain frequency points like the ones I mentioned for the Yamaha PEQ?

I noticed that the other PEQ (whether 7-Band or 12-band) also have fixed frequency points, not "infinite points" in 1Hz increments.

Since all these PEQ have fixed frequency points, is it the same way with the Auto-EQ frequency points?

With the app editor and ratbuddyssey there's nothing I can't do that I can with a MiniDSP 2x4 HD. That app editor is a game changer. Any frequency, any Q.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

With the app editor and ratbuddyssey there's nothing I can't do that I can with a MiniDSP 2x4 HD. That app editor is a game changer. Any frequency, any Q.

So the Audyssey Editor App allows you to choose the frequency Range that you want Audyssey to apply the AUTO-EQ - like from 21Hz to 198Hz?

But does it actually EQ exactly at 198Hz? Or EQ at fixed frequency points (20Hz, 30Hz, 40Hz, 50Hz, etc.) within this RANGE of 21Hz-198Hz?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

However, playing the devils advocate, if I have two 5dB peaks, one at 90Hz and the other at 140Hz, how would I address them using Yamaha's PEQ?

You say "for every speaker". Does this include the subwoofer(s)? That is where it is likely most useful!

The 2 subs have a 4-Band PEQ while all the other speakers have a 7-Band PEQ.

 

[KEW]

The preamp out of that receiver was a bit weak as I noted. I Know Yamaha has made improvements on later models I've tested.

I want to make sure I have my facts straight and I trust you.
I have been actively cautioning people against the A880 based on the review of the A860.
Are you comfortable saying that the A880 now has decent (say equivalent to the 1080 at 1.9 Vrms) output.

I tried to find later reviews by Audioholics of Yamaha Aventage AVR's, but came up empty!
If you (or anyone) can give me links I would appreciate it!
The search terms I used were "Audioholics Review Yamaha Aventage" in Google.
I also used the Audioholics Magazine search feature for "Yamaha Aventage" and the only review newer than the A860 was for the 5200 processor and amplifier!
Obviously, I am doing something wrong and would appreciate help from anyone with my search technique.
Thanks!

 

[Pogre]

So the Audyssey Editor App allows you to choose the frequency Range that you want Audyssey to apply the AUTO-EQ - like from 21Hz to 198Hz?

But does it actually EQ exactly at 198Hz? Or EQ at fixed frequency points (20Hz, 30Hz, 40Hz, 50Hz, etc.) within this RANGE of 21Hz-198Hz?

You can set it to auto eq from any range you want and down. If you only want 200 hz (or 198, if you really want to) and down auto eq'd then that's all it will touch.

 

[PENG]

So the Audyssey Editor App allows you to choose the frequency Range that you want Audyssey to apply the AUTO-EQ - like from 21Hz to 198Hz?

Again, AH has answers to everything (I should say almost):

Audioholics_Audyssey_interview

"Chris Kyriakakis: MultEQ is capable of applying correction from 10 Hz to 24 kHz. However, during the measurement process it first determines the roll off points of each speaker and subwoofer, and limits the correction below that point."

But does it actually EQ exactly at 198Hz? Or EQ at fixed frequency points (20Hz, 30Hz, 40Hz, 50Hz, etc.) within this RANGE of 21Hz-198Hz?

Assuming you are talking about the App, yes, but it would be time consuming unless you use it with the Ratbuddssey UI that was written by 3rd parties, and can be downloaded for free. Then you can enter the frequencies point by point, it would accept even 20.5 Hz, or 2001 Hz etc.

The beauty is, you Audyssey is still in charge of creating the FIR filters just like the auto process, so it is not PEQ (IIR based filters) and you don't have calculate the "Q".

 

[Pogre]

Again, AH has answers to everything (I should say almost):

Audioholics_Audyssey_interview

"Chris Kyriakakis: MultEQ is capable of applying correction from 10 Hz to 24 kHz. However, during the measurement process it first determines the roll off points of each speaker and subwoofer, and limits the correction below that point."



Assuming you are talking about the App, yes, but it would be time consuming unless you use it with the Ratbuddssey UI that was written by 3rd parties, and can be downloaded for free. Then you can enter the frequencies point by point, it would accept even 20.5 Hz, or 2001 Hz etc.

The beauty is, you Audyssey is still in charge of creating the FIR filters just like the auto process, so it is not PEQ (IIR based filters) and you don't have calculate the "Q".

Yup. With ratbuddyssey for entering frequencies point by point it's as much control as I have with my MiniDSP 2x4 HD. For me it took the app from "meh" to "ah-meh-zing"!

Not that it wasn't useful before but tight, precise adjustments just aren't very easy to do trying to draw it out on my tablet. RB opened up a whole next level of control to the point that, if I were starting out all over again I would not get a Mini. RB and the app are all you need.

 

[Theoretical Pragmatist]

Folks - hopefully simple question for y'all.

Scenario: Using Roku to stream Netflix. Netflix content is 5.1
Set up: Denon AVR under question powering 2.0 speakers
Question: Does the identified 'bug' affect performance in this scenario?

If the answer to above question is 'yes performance is deteriorated' then how can it be claimed this will never occur in the real world? I am going to buy this receiver for primarily stereo music listening but it will also be used for streaming TV and movies. I would think a lot of folks have this similar set up.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Again, AH has answers to everything (I should say almost):

Audioholics_Audyssey_interview

"Chris Kyriakakis: MultEQ is capable of applying correction from 10 Hz to 24 kHz. However, during the measurement process it first determines the roll off points of each speaker and subwoofer, and limits the correction below that point."



Assuming you are talking about the App, yes, but it would be time consuming unless you use it with the Ratbuddssey UI that was written by 3rd parties, and can be downloaded for free. Then you can enter the frequencies point by point, it would accept even 20.5 Hz, or 2001 Hz etc.

The beauty is, you Audyssey is still in charge of creating the FIR filters just like the auto process, so it is not PEQ (IIR based filters) and you don't have calculate the "Q".

Ya, definitely go with XT32 if you gotta have Room EQ.

We've seen what it can do in terms of on-axis FR graphs - get a flatter FR or at least one of the Audyssey Curves.

The manual PEQ (like in Yamaha) is for people who just want to tweak a few things manually to their preference - like I only want to tweak the bass (mainly 30-80Hz) to my preference.