Denon AVR-X3600H vs AVR-X4700H Measurement Report

[snakeeyes]

Amir might want to fix the article from Marantz 6104 to Marantz 6014. He has that typo everywhere.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

That review is bashing SR6104.
CD Input Pure Direct
"At 1kHz, not much better than a $50 amp!"

 

[PENG]

At 1Vrms, the FFT of the SR8012 was good but I was surprised at the 3rd order harmonic byproduct that was about 3dB higher than I observed on the Denon AVR-X3300W prior but it was very low at .0018% THD.

@KEW The other thing that irked me was the narrative being spun on ASR that somehow the 3600's measurements were somehow an anomaly and the 4700's was proof positive of an uncaring leaderless engineering team. Could just as easily be the reverse and seems now like it was. All manufactures still need constant vigilance though from their customers and third party testers like AH and ASR but believing someone other than yourself actually might care about their job as much as you do doesn't make you a sellout. You still do the tests and ask the tough questions. You can have accountability without being mean about it is what I'm getting at but mean feels better to lots of people.

I thought I was the only one feeling it was so odd and illogical about your same observation on "..........the narrative being spun on ASR that somehow the 3600's measurements were somehow an anomaly............" Couldn't believe people could even consider that as a possibility.

 

[PENG]

That review is bashing SR6104.
CD Input Pure Direct
"At 1kHz, not much better than a $50 amp!"

He is certainly blunt and undiplomatic that way, no one is perfect though, he did do a lot of good imo and in this case I suspected that was the added reason why he would not publish it without getting some sort of "green light" from his contact at D+M/SU. That's of course does not mean D+M/SU would like it better or dislike it less. At the minimum I bet they would try and reinforce the narrative such as by reminding us the following:

"Enjoying your favorite music, movies, TV, or other entertainment is ultimately about the experience. While great engineering is the crux of a properly functioning product, audio performance cannot simply be reduced to measurement data. Let your ears guide you."

If they did, it would certainly calm, and echoed by the subjective/perceive group while the objective/specs&measurements group would...I don't know, don't want to say.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It seems appropriate for this thread:
The review of the SR6014 is out:

Marantz SR6014 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz SR6014 Audio/Video Receiver. It was purchased new and kindly drop shipped to me. It costs US $1,500. The SR6014 looks just like all the other Marantz AV products: I must say, as iconic as the round display is, coming from testing...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The Panther is whole, but it is not a "recommend". I'm guessing the HDAM circuits are a kind of BS marketing "feature", but too late to read the review tonight!

Oh yeah. Good lords. THD @ 2Vrms is 0.01%. Totally disgraceful!

 

[VMPS-TIII]

He is certainly blunt and undiplomatic that way, no one is perfect though, he did do a lot of good imo and in this case I suspected that was the added reason why he would not publish it without getting some sort of "green light" from his contact at D+M/SU. That's of course does not mean D+M/SU would like it better or dislike it less. At the minimum I bet they would try and reinforce the narrative such as by reminding us the following:

The Denon 3600 is getting a bit of a boost out of these measurements. It's out of stock in most places and if you can find it, the asking price is still close to the original retail, even on refurbs.

Maybe this was planned all along so Denon can bring the 3600 back at a higher price?

 

[roadwarrior]

At 1Vrms, the FFT of the SR8012 was good but I was surprised at the 3rd order harmonic byproduct that was about 3dB higher than I observed on the Denon AVR-X3300W prior but it was very low at .0018% THD.

The SR8012 is based on the 6000 series that's made in Japan so I'll be curious to see how the 6700 does in comparison to the 4700 that's built in Vietnam. I suspect that comparison you made to the 3300 and the most recent 3600 measurements might be a tell.

I thought I was the only one feeling it was so odd and illogical about your same observation on "..........the narrative being spun on ASR that somehow the 3600's measurements were somehow an anomaly............" Couldn't believe people could even consider that as a possibility.

Classic human nature. Better to believe something bad is going on that way you're fighting the good fight. Bunker mentality and all that. I get it but just about as anchored to reality as the Stockholm syndrome is on the opposite end of the spectrum most times. The power spec thing has really hurt these AVR manufactures reputations as well IMO. They give the correct specs but bury them in all the other same garbage specs all the rest do. "If I can't believe this why should I believe the rest" type of thing. Denon should really consider signing on to Gene's truth in power manifesto but the reality is they probably won't until the others decide to as well because most just look at those stickers slapped onto the front of AVR's with the 1KHZ test tone 6Ohm power spec spec and will buy whichever one is rated the highest. Sad but true. I do appreciate independent 3rd party testing but I know what an FFT is and how to read it. Most non technical Joe blow consumers don't and give these things more weight than they deserve for real world listening.

A SINAD being the reciprocal of the THD+N spec. The difference between even and odd order harmonics. How IMD is calculated, damping factor etc... Ethan Winer has a great video on his YT channel breaking most all of this down in really easy to understand terms with pictures. I encourage any non engineer type to look into that and other resources for learning how to make sense of many of these head scratching specs because I never met an engineer who didn't have an issue with another engineer about something and I've dealt professionally with engineers all my adult life. Point being even in the engineering world things aren't always agreed upon by all. Get educated as a consumer and learn to make sense of these graphs for yourself and decide if it's worth a buy or not.

Learn Ohms law and the power formula for starters. How THD+N is calculated is super easy to get as well. Plenty of websites break that down and more in easy to understand terms and graphs plus they have the more technical math to go along with it. Never simply count on someone else to tell you what some graph or chart actually means because many times they are just telling you what it means to them.

 

[PENG]

Oh yeah. Good lords. THD @ 2Vrms is 0.01%. Totally disgraceful!

Hate to say it out loud, but the RX-A1080 did better up to that level right?

 

[PENG]

The SR8012 is based on the 6000 series that's made in Japan so I'll be curious to see how the 6700 does in comparison to the 4700 that's built in Vietnam. I suspect that comparison you made to the 3300 and the most recent 3600 measurements might be a tell.




Classic human nature. Better to believe something bad is going on that way you're fighting the good fight. Bunker mentality and all that. I get it but just about as anchored to reality as the Stockholm syndrome is on the opposite end of the spectrum most times. The power spec thing has really hurt these AVR manufactures reputations as well IMO. They give the correct specs but bury them in all the other same garbage specs all the rest do. "If I can't believe this why should I believe the rest" type of thing. Denon should really consider signing on to Gene's truth in power manifesto but the reality is they probably won't until the others decide to as well because most just look at those stickers slapped onto the front of AVR's with the 1KHZ test tone 6Ohm power spec spec and will buy whichever one is rated the highest. Sad but true. I do appreciate independent 3rd party testing but I know what an FFT is and how to read it. Most non technical Joe blow consumers don't and give these things more weight than they deserve for real world listening.

A SINAD being the reciprocal of the THD+N spec. The difference between even and odd order harmonics. How IMD is calculated, damping factor etc... Ethan Winer has a great video on his YT channel breaking most all of this down in really easy to understand terms with pictures. I encourage any non engineer type to look into that and other resources for learning how to make sense of many of these head scratching specs because I never met an engineer who didn't have an issue with another engineer about something and I've dealt professionally with engineers all my adult life. Point being even in the engineering world things aren't always agreed upon by all. Get educated as a consumer and learn to make sense of these graphs for yourself and decide if it's worth a buy or not.

Learn Ohms law and the power formula for starters. How THD+N is calculated is super easy to get as well. Plenty of websites break that down and more in easy to understand terms and graphs plus they have the more technical math to go along with it. Never simply count on someone else to tell you what some graph or chart actually means because many times they are just telling you what it means to them.

Talking about IMD, did you notice that the 3600 and 4700 also managed to measure as good (almost I think) as the $4999 AV8805? So in a way I can understand the sentiment, the $1199 3600 did appear to be something too good to be true. I mean, under certain conditions its the only one that has broken through the 100 dB SINAD ceiling (103 dB iirc) for any AVR or even AVP measured to day. The Emo, currently rank top over at ASR, topped out at 100 dB.

 

[roadwarrior]

Talking about IMD, did you notice that the 3600 and 4700 also managed to measure as good (almost I think) as the $4999 AV8805? So in a way I can understand the sentiment, the $1199 3600 did appear to be something too good to be true. I mean, under certain conditions its the only one that has broken through the 100 dB SINAD ceiling (103 dB iirc) for any AVR or even AVP measured to day. The Emo, currently rank top over at ASR, topped out at 100 dB.

I did. That's also why I dont buy seperates. Some of that might be the difference between units that gave ASR and Denon similar but still different results on the 4700. The better component argument with the 3600 became less relevant once I saw the 4700's newest review. That seems to be the goal for Amir to see the AVR manufactures hit. I just don't want to pay any more money for it nor sacrifice some other setting I'm interested in to hit it.-75dB to -90dB SINAD is perfectly fine with me. I get the overall distortion argument in the signal chain though.

 

[RickyT]

Talking about IMD, did you notice that the 3600 and 4700 also managed to measure as good (almost I think) as the $4999 AV8805? So in a way I can understand the sentiment, the $1199 3600 did appear to be something too good to be true. I mean, under certain conditions its the only one that has broken through the 100 dB SINAD ceiling (103 dB iirc) for any AVR or even AVP measured to day. The Emo, currently rank top over at ASR, topped out at 100 dB.

Do the Marantz HDAMs also cause extra distortion (without any improvements) in their power amps and 2 channel products too?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hate to say it out loud, but the RX-A1080 did better up to that level right?

Ya, totally. The RX-A1080's THD was 0.0058%, not 0.01%. Please.

Hey, there's another thread where someone complained about his SR6014 having audio dropouts. Maybe it's the 0.01% THD. If THD were 0.0058%, there wouldn't be any dropouts. Haha.

Marantz SR6014 Audio Dropouts

Hey Everyone, Yesterday I setup my new Marantz SR6014. Previously I had a Pioneer SC-05. Everything else in my setup is the same: Sony XBR65 4K TV Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Pro-Ject MM Phono Preamp Bowers and Wilkins 700 Series speakers (Towers, center and rear) PS4 Apple TV HDMI 2.0 Cables for...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Emo, currently rank top over at ASR, topped out at 100 dB.

Shoot, -100dB is only 0.001% THD.

The next Pre-pro I buy will have a SINAD of -105dB = 0.00056% THD. That's THREE Zeros!

Every zero counts! Haha.

 

[KEW]

I thought I was the only one feeling it was so odd and illogical about your same observation on "..........the narrative being spun on ASR that somehow the 3600's measurements were somehow an anomaly............" Couldn't believe people could even consider that as a possibility.

You make it sound like you don't believe that particular Denon 3600 might have had several defective parts that resulted in a fluke "defect synergy" yielding better than designed performance!
I suppose, next, you are going to tell us that a man bitten by a radioactive spider wouldn't obtain super-human strength, the ability to crawl across a ceiling, and an intuitive, accurate sense of impending danger!
Get a grip, man!!!

 

[PENG]

Do the Marantz HDAMs also cause extra distortion (without any improvements) in their power amps and 2 channel products too?

If you mean the likes of the PM8006, PM-10 integrated amps, you can reference Gene's review of the older PM-11S3. Power amps don't have HDAMs as they are only used on preamps and integrated amps.

It does look like the distortions level would be closer to that of the Denon AVRs and the Marantz AV8805, but much better than the SR6014's. The two graphs are actually quite similar, they look flipped because AH uses THD+N in %, while ASR's are in SINAD, that is the inverse of THD+N, if expressed in dB they will be exactly the same numerically but THD+N would be -ve.

For comparison, at 2 V, the PM-11S2's THD+N is about 0.005%, that is about SINAD 86 dB, vs the SR6014's 0.0097%, that is SINAD 80.5 dB.

The PM series, especially the expensive PM-11S1/S2/S3 and the newer PM-10, do have much more robust HDAMs that should add very little distortions and I am sure they have benefits, in terms of impedance buffering anyway, though from the graph the effects do seem obvious.

Marantz PM-11S3 Integrated Amplifier Review

Review: The Marantz PM-11S3 Integrated Amplifier is rated at 100 watts/channel. It exceeds its specifications and sounds and looks great doing it. A true audiophile product with prideful ownership.

www.audioholics.com

Marantz SR6014 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz SR6014 Audio/Video Receiver. It was purchased new and kindly drop shipped to me. It costs US $1,500. The SR6014 looks just like all the other Marantz AV products: I must say, as iconic as the round display is, coming from testing...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[PENG]

You make it sound like you don't believe that particular Denon 3600 might have had several defective parts that resulted in a fluke "defect synergy" yielding better than designed performance!
I suppose, next, you are going to tell us that a man bitten by a radioactive spider wouldn't obtain super-human strength, the ability to crawl across a ceiling, and an intuitive, accurate sense of impending danger!
Get a grip, man!!!

No I never believe the 3600 was a fluke, it is a mass produced consumer electronic. However, I do believe you can measure 10 of them and the measurements won't be exactly the same but may vary slightly, probably about 1 to 3 dB SINAD, because the chips that have major impact on measured SINAD have tolerances that seem quite high. As I said, I thought people who speculated the fluke factor because the numbers looked too good to be true, it was the first AV product at the $1,000 price point that came so dangerous closed to 100 dB SINAD.

 

[PENG]

The Denon 3600 is getting a bit of a boost out of these measurements. It's out of stock in most places and if you can find it, the asking price is still close to the original retail, even on refurbs.

Maybe this was planned all along so Denon can bring the 3600 back at a higher price?

If I remember right, they started selling like hotcakes after Gene mentioned the front channel disconnection trick, partly because many readers thought the 3600, being new in 2019, was the only one that has this possibility so they don't look at the 4500H, and the SR6013, 7013 that can do the same. Then ASR measured it and got brilliant results but by that time people were having tough time finding brand new ones in the box already, and people then started to scoop up the demos and the AC4L ones.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

If I remember right, they started selling like hotcakes after Gene mentioned the front channel disconnection trick, partly because many readers thought the 3600, being new in 2019, was the only one that has this possibility so they don't look at the 4500H, and the SR6013, 7013 that can do the same. Then ASR measured it and got brilliant results but by that time people were having tough time finding brand new ones in the box already, and people then started to scoop up the demos and the AC4L ones.

I just noticed there's a new firmware update on my 4500. Maybe it turns it into a 3600.

 

[PENG]

I just noticed there's a new firmware update on my 4500. Maybe it turns it into a 3600.

My 4400 got it last night. If you know what it fixed, please share.. You don't want a 3600 that's why you bought the 4500, or you had no choice because the 3600 was sold out? I have no doubt the 4500 is a much better value if you got it for the same price as the 3600. Absolutely no doubt!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would take the X4000 series over the X3000 series 100% of the time.

People do realize they can’t hear any difference between any of these THD/SINAD, right?