Denon AVR-X3600H vs AVR-X4700H Measurement Report

[PENG]

I think time has already spoken with him. I've read his posts over the years on several sites and what you see is what you get with him. He loves talking trash. Smart dude though. Problem is lots of this stuff happened when his first review hit on a multitude of home theater sites:

Guys, can anyone boil these results down a bit? It seems like it has more noise... Will I notice? I have one on order, and yes - the HDMI 2.1 is important to me, but not if it's going to sound bad... Help me out here!

EDIT: Switched my order to the previous generation. Darn. No HDMI 2.1 for me.

This is why newbs should not make purchasing decisions off of technical review sites alone. Most times they have almost no clue what they are even looking at and how to interpret them and even when they do there's the chance of error when there is no review process in place. He missed out on getting a receiver with full pre amp mode, HDMI 2.1 features other than added bandwidth and 2 slot switchable Audyssey settings for nothing really. Bet he wasn't the only one.

Your last point is sad but true. Some members are just not technically inclined and would easily misunderstood Amir's explanations. On multiple occasions, he answers questions about how to avoid the degradation caused by the bug (a narrowly define one), yet people keep coming back to ask similar questions, or coming up with a different scenario.

Another problem I see is that, he would publish a review, be it a high quality DAC or a behringer pro amp, by the time I got to read it, and I am usually the early bird, as I am retire, there would already be 10 pages or more. I got to give him credit that even if he only answer one out of 5 questions, he would be need more than 24 hours a day or take lots of breaks during and in between measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We have to ask Gene, surely he knows who to talk to over there. My own speculation is that Yamaha is more keen on the "protective" scheme. So they want to shut you down as soon as they have the slightest indication that you are pushing the thing a little much. We should ask @M Code if that's one way they think they could keep the throne of "reliability king".

If they fix the pre out issue, I may try them out next time, as I think YPAO + manual PEW can do a good enough job for the 20-200 Hz range.

Whatever Yamaha's rationale is for keeping the pre-out voltage < 2V on their AVRs, it would be nice to hear it.

And if they think it's best to limit the AVRs to 2V because of lower heat production and better reliability, I am 100% for it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am usually the early bird, as I am retire....

Wait. What? You're retired now?

 

[roadwarrior]

Your last point is sad but true. Some members are just not technically inclined and would easily misunderstood Amir's explanations. On multiple occasions, he answers questions about how to avoid the degradation caused by the bug (a narrowly define one), yet people keep coming back to ask similar questions, or coming up with a different scenario.

He wasn't a member just some guy on Reddit but I agree with your point. I read all that as well. First it was PCM content only . Then its bitstream but Atmos channels are sprinkles on a Dolby True HD track so those channels wont affect the downmix bug. Then it's if you have a 5.1.2 Atmos setup you'll still see the 2dB SINAD loss because no back surrounds but that's a loss from -97dB SINAD to -95dB SINAD so no real audible worries there. It's the circle of confusion for sure but Denon owns a lot of that as well. I understand how it got past them but their older receivers didn't have this issue show up and like you said Yamaha's doesn't as well so it needs to get fixed. If for nothing else to put the spotlight back on the 4700's newest review measurements.

Another problem I see is that, he would publish a review, be it a high quality DAC or a behringer pro amp, by the time I got to read it, and I am usually the early bird, as I am retire, there would already be 10 pages or more. I got to give him credit that even if he only answer one out of 5 questions, he would be need more than 24 hours a day or take lots of breaks during and in between measurements.

I try to read all of the comments because there's many times more to learn from them than the review itself as far as from a wider understanding of specs and how they affect performance. I'm not interested in ever buying a standalone external DAC or pre amp so those reviews hold little for me but I read the comments to at least understand why they matter to others. His plates definitely cruise ship buffet level full for sure. Dont envy him on that.

 

[KEW]

Has Yamaha ever given Audioholics their rationale for the lower pre-out voltage on the A1080 and lower model AVRs?

Is it because most people who own AVRs don't use external amps?

Personally, I think they should either fix the low voltage issue or get rid of the pre-out terminals. 1.2v is pathetic!
Generally, I look to pre-outs as assurance that should I ever find the AVR lacking in power, I have the the option to add an external amp! Having pre-outs that require you to know more than Yamaha tells you about amp compatibility issues seems like they are going for the "image" of pre-outs but don't care about whether they will actually function!

 

[tparm]

FWIW Looks like Amir sent his measurement results to D+M for the Marantz SR6014 before publishing them. Granted they get published before they respond since it seems he likes to do so when the unit is sent back to the owner (not sure why unless said is under a return deadline). I think he has an X4700 and X3700 in his possession too. Received my X4700 today.

 

[KEW]

If they fix the pre out issue, I may try them out next time, as I think YPAO + manual PEW can do a good enough job for the 20-200 Hz range.

I assume "PEW" is a typo, but I am totally flummoxed as to whether you meant PEQ or REW!
I am probably mixing things up, but for some reason, I was thinking that YPAO and PEQ were limited regarding the number of bands at low frequencies.
What are you thinking to use YPAO to do and what for PEQ (or REW) to do?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I assume "PEW" is a typo, but I am totally flummoxed as to whether you meant PEQ or REW!
I am probably mixing things up, but for some reason, I was thinking that YPAO and PEQ were limited regarding the number of bands at low frequencies.
What are you thinking to use YPAO to do and what for PEQ (or REW) to do?

Yamaha Parametric EQ.

For every speaker, you get 7 bands and you can choose any 7 bands: 15.6Hz, 19.7Hz, 24.8Hz, 31.3Hz, 39.4Hz, 49.6, 62.5, 78.7, 99.2, 125, 157.5, 198.4, 250, 315, 396.9, 500, 630, 793.7, 1kHz, 1.26kHz, 1.59, 2.0, 2.52, 3.17, 4.0, 5.04, 6.35, 8.0, 10.1, 12.7, and 16.0kHz

You can choose any Q values from 0.5, 0.63, 0.794, 1.0, 1.26, 1.587, 2.0, 2.52, 3.175, 4.0, 5.04, 6.35, 8.0, and 10.08.

Gains are in 0.5dB increments from -20.0dB to +6.0dB.

 

[KEW]

FWIW Looks like Amir sent his measurement results to D+M for the Marantz SR6014 before publishing them. Granted they get published before they respond since it seems he likes to do so when the unit is sent back to the owner (not sure why unless said is under a return deadline). I think he has an X4700 and X3700 in his possession too. Received my X4700 today.

I know his current backlog is 6 weeks estimated lead time from the date he gets the item until he does the review ... and he usually does not put an item in the queue unless he has received it.
I suspect with several items circulating in and out of his "inventory" he wants to keep things as simple as possible and "close out" each review by sending out the unit within a day or so of publishing his review. That certainly helps prevent the likelihood of a unit return or review "falling through the cracks".
Probably more important is the ability to remember what he did when the review is posted for forum discussion! If he reviews an AVR then waits two weeks before posting the review he is apt to lose the ability to discriminate between that AVR and the one he measured last week.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Personally, I think they should either fix the low voltage issue or get rid of the pre-out terminals. 1.2v is pathetic!
Generally I look to pre-outs as assurance that should I ever find the AVR lacking in power I have the assurance of the option to add an external amp! Having pre-outs that require you to know more than Yamaha tells you about amp compatibility issues seems like they are going for the "image" of pre-outs but don't care about whether they will actually function!

I thought Amir was able to get 1.96 Vrms = 0.005% THD+N?

Review and Measurements of Yamaha RX-A1080 AVR

This is a review and detailed measurements of Yamaha RX-A1080 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). I purchased this solely for the purpose of testing through my company (Madrona Digital is a dealer for Yamaha among many other brands). The RX-A1080 is part of the upper tier of Yamaha AVRs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So, the pre-out voltage "falls short" of the full 2.0V, but it's close to 2.0V.

2V = 315W into 8 ohms or 630W into 4 ohms with a 28dB Amp.

 

[PENG]

FWIW Looks like Amir sent his measurement results to D+M for the Marantz SR6014 before publishing them. Granted they get published before they respond since it seems he likes to do so when the unit is sent back to the owner (not sure why unless said is under a return deadline). I think he has an X4700 and X3700 in his possession too. Received my X4700 today.

Yep, @Pogre and @Verdinut should standby if they are interested in seeing the first Marantz AVR that ASR has ever measured.

 

[PENG]

I thought Amir was able to get 1.96 Vrms = 0.005% THD+N?

Review and Measurements of Yamaha RX-A1080 AVR

This is a review and detailed measurements of Yamaha RX-A1080 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). I purchased this solely for the purpose of testing through my company (Madrona Digital is a dealer for Yamaha among many other brands). The RX-A1080 is part of the upper tier of Yamaha AVRs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So, the pre-out voltage "falls short" of the full 2.0V, but it's close to 2.0V.

2V = 315W into 8 ohms or 630W into 4 ohms with a 28dB Amp.

0.005805%, for those who prefer to read %, not really that bad right!! Not very stable though at that level, but then only peaks of like 20 dB would get you there, not normal levels so for a lot of people running something like a MCA525 or Monolith 200WX5, I don't see any need to worry.

 

[gene]

Is the "See: Denon AVR-X3600H vs AVR-X4700H Measurement Report" supposed to be a link to something?

weird I couldn't link to the PDF without error so I changed it to their main announcement page.

 

[gene]

I think most of us would like to hear Yamaha's rationale for keeping the pre-out voltage < 2V on the A1080 AVR and lower models.

Has Yamaha ever given Audioholics their rationale for the lower pre-out voltage on the A1080 and lower model AVRs?

Is it because most people who own AVRs don't use external amps?

Is it because having higher voltage on AVRs might reduce reliability?

So would be nice to get Yamaha's inputs.

I hope Amir will send Yamaha the request for their inputs regarding any CONCERNS.

It's a limitation in their volume control circuitry from what I understand. Their higher end receivers will do above 2Vrms unclipped though. This is something I always check when reviewing receivers. I will keep pushing for more voltage when needed

 

[KEW]

I thought Amir was able to get 1.96 Vrms = 0.005% THD+N?

I trust you are correct and assume he did, but you included the lower models:

Has Yamaha ever given Audioholics their rationale for the lower pre-out voltage on the A1080 and lower model AVRs?

So, for me, if questioning Yamaha's rationale, we should not be asking about the 2 Vrms value but the 1.2 1.4* Vrms that Gene suggests as the limit on the A860! 2 Vrms is not that bad!

2V = 315W into 8 ohms or 630W into 4 ohms with a 28dB Amp.

I think this also depends on the amp's capability, but ...
Yeah, 2 Vrms is not terrible, 1.4 Vrms is! That is my point! Yamaha should address the 1.4 Vrms which reflects a serious lapse of performance (not the 2.0 which is a marginal lapse of performance)!
I am not willing to give Yamaha a pass on the A860 just because it is a lower level AVR at $900!

* I remembered it as 1.2 Vrms, but went back to Gene's review to double check. 1.6 Vrms had excessive FFT distortion and 1.0 Vrms was clean. 1.4 Vrms is the value Gene seems to suggest as an effective max. Either way, it is poor performance (and decidedly below the capability of the competitors).

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review

The Yamaha AVENTAGE RX-A860 7.2CH Atmos/DTS:X AV receiver is packed with excellent networking features but it does fall short on power delivery making our recommendation conditional based on usage.

www.audioholics.com

 

[KEW]

Yamaha Parametric EQ.

For every speaker, you get 7 bands and you can choose any 7 bands: 15.6Hz, 19.7Hz, 24.8Hz, 31.3Hz, 39.4Hz, 49.6, 62.5, 78.7, 99.2, 125, 157.5, 198.4, 250, 315, 396.9, 500, 630, 793.7, 1kHz, 1.26kHz, 1.59, 2.0, 2.52, 3.17, 4.0, 5.04, 6.35, 8.0, 10.1, 12.7, and 16.0kHz

You can choose any Q values from 0.5, 0.63, 0.794, 1.0, 1.26, 1.587, 2.0, 2.52, 3.175, 4.0, 5.04, 6.35, 8.0, and 10.08.

Gains are in 0.5dB increments from -20.0dB to +6.0dB.

Yes, that is the issue.
I am far from well-versed on this, so if Peng does not see it as an issue, I am surely mistaken.
However, playing the devils advocate, if I have two 5dB peaks, one at 90Hz and the other at 140Hz, how would I address them using Yamaha's PEQ?

You say "for every speaker". Does this include the subwoofer(s)? That is where it is likely most useful!

 

[snakeeyes]

Hmm, does Yamaha RXA2060/2080 have 2.0 Vrms?
(I own the 2060 and the chassis is similar in size to a 3060/3080, not small like a 1080). I don’t see purchasing another AVR until at least a few HDMI 2.1 8k inputs are available.

I would likely want a Monolith3 or Monolith5 anyhow, by the way.

 

[PENG]

Yes, that is the issue.
I am far from well-versed on this, so if Peng does not see it as an issue, I am surely mistaken.
However, playing the devils advocate, if I have two 5dB peaks, one at 90Hz and the other at 140Hz, how would I address them using Yamaha's PEQ?

You say "for every speaker". Does this include the subwoofer(s)? That is where it is likely most useful!

I don't see the RX-A1080's 0.0058%(always pick the worse of the 2 channels or quote both) being an issue.

I would, if for my own use, pair it with amps with at least 28 dB gain and input impedance higher than 15 kOhm, because at 1.96 V it was on the verge of shutdown. It should be solid at 1.5 to 1.7V, I would think. So I feel it is fine for the likes of the Monolith amps. Can't say the same for the RX-A860. I would take that one even if it is free.

 

[KEW]

I don't see the RX-A1080's 0.0058%(always pick the worse of the 2 channels or quote both) being an issue.

I would, if for my own use, pair it with amps with at least 28 dB gain and input impedance higher than 15 kOhm, because at 1.96 V it was on the verge of shutdown. It should be solid at 1.5 to 1.7V, I would think. So I feel it is fine for the likes of the Monolith amps. Can't say the same for the RX-A860. I would take that one even if it is free.

My post was in response to your post about using YPAO and PEW for EQ'ing your system.
How would you expect Yamaha to deal with EQ and how would you deal with the peaks I mentioned given the fixed frequencies of Yamaha's PEQ!

Yamaha Parametric EQ.

For every speaker, you get 7 bands and you can choose any 7 bands: 15.6Hz, 19.7Hz, 24.8Hz, 31.3Hz, 39.4Hz, 49.6, 62.5, 78.7, 99.2, 125, 157.5, 198.4, 250, 315, 396.9, 500, 630, 793.7, 1kHz, 1.26kHz, 1.59, 2.0, 2.52, 3.17, 4.0, 5.04, 6.35, 8.0, 10.1, 12.7, and 16.0kHz

You can choose any Q values from 0.5, 0.63, 0.794, 1.0, 1.26, 1.587, 2.0, 2.52, 3.175, 4.0, 5.04, 6.35, 8.0, and 10.08.

Gains are in 0.5dB increments from -20.0dB to +6.0dB.

I am far from well-versed on this, so if Peng does not see it as an issue, I am surely mistaken.
However, playing the devils advocate, if I have two 5dB peaks, one at 90Hz and the other at 140Hz, how would I address them using Yamaha's PEQ?

You say "for every speaker". Does this include the subwoofer(s)? That is where it is likely most useful!

 

[M Code]

As requested....
We did some further research into Yamaha's design philosophy for pre-out/main-in voltage specs... If one examines closely the respective pre-out/main-in specs for Yamaha consumer audio products they are designed for 1V RMS 47K Ohms. However for the Yamaha pro-audio power amplifiers they typically implement (3) different input sensitivities. Note that all of these design decisions are done in Japan and the 1V for consumer products has been the understood Japanese standard for consumer audio products for at least the last 25 years. 1 thing I can comment on is that over the years having done multiple product development projects with Yamaha for consumer audio products with their design staff in Hammatsu, they are very stubborn to make a spec change. The Yamaha consumer audio design team has been together for many, many years and managed by senior members who don't like to make spec changes. Note that they do handle the new technologies especially for HDMI, video surround audio, connectivity technologies very well. Plus they continue to have and maintain the highest standards for quality control as proven by having the excellent reliability, through their own factories. .

Conclusions...
To date Yamaha has been the most successful and profitable consumer audio brand by far, and to force and/or influence a pre-out/main-in spec revision will take someone with some hefty weight.. Perhaps if it can be proven that they will sell more AVRs and audio components with a higher pre-out/main-in spec then they may listen and be more receptive. The other factor is how many more AVRs will be sold if they did implement the spec change, as today the majority of AVRs users (>93%) tend to stay with just an AVR or sound bar without upgrading for more power. If they want more power they simply step up to a higher powered AVR, since an AVR has an average life of <4 years... And since many of the add-on pro-audio amplifiers including Crown, QSC have switchable sensitivity Yamaha may not be missing any significant sales opportunity....
The bottom line is that Yamaha consumer audio division does make $ but has lower sales and profits than the bigger, commercial audio division..

Just my $0.02...