Denon and Marantz could cease operations in 2025

[everettT]

In Australia it really comes down to what the retailers are stocking and selling, We really only have one HF / Audio chain JB HF Who years ago had a large range of makes and models on display. Now your lucky to see one or two models living among the range of soundbars. Other retailers of large department stores, have a section for HF, together with Flat screens and soundbars. If you walk past the Bedding / Furniture sections. And you get to talk to a salesman who started last week High End Audio is really restricted to the states capital cities, and these can be counted on one hand. Sydney has two, Melbourne also has a couple and most are struggling to stay open.

What is high end audio to dealers? To the dealers it's installation and control, quality audio be damned.

 

[highfigh]

This sold so many Crestron installs in the early 2000s but code had to be rewritten to often. Niles sold a hard button controller that just worked, wasn't as sexy but worked. This shouldn't be hard at this point with modern products and IP control, as long as manufacturers provide the appropriate data.

None of these is a "front panel touch screen", as you wrote.

I worked for a Crestron dealer when the iPad was introduced and someone wrote a Crestron control app almost immediately- I sure would have hated being one of the salespeople who got the customers to fire up for a $12K Crestron control panel.

You wrote the operative phrase- "as long as manufacturers provide the appropriate data".

 

[highfigh]

Do you really give a s#%t?

Who pissed in your Wheaties?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We need to re-name you 'Doom-n-Gloom' ! Saying receivers 'were always a terrible idea' ?? what a bunch of horse turds !!! 50 years ago there no 'control devices and ethernet' !! They without question had their place in audio, now, with evolution(your a doctor, so I'm sure you understand) , other and in some cases better solutions have come down the pike.

Now go give your grandkids a hug, perhaps that will make you realize how good things can be .............

Grumpy Old Man.

 

[highfigh]

What is high end audio to dealers? To the dealers it's installation and control, quality audio be damned.

Mass marketing dealers want to see $$$, not strokers. It's still possible to build a smaller solid retail operation, but sales can no longer drive it; after-sales support, service, accessory sales and installation need to provide substantial revenue. It's not easy, but the ones who are successful have happy repeat customers and get new business through referrals.

 

[everettT]

None of these is a "front panel touch screen", as you wrote.

I worked for a Crestron dealer when the iPad was introduced and someone wrote a Crestron control app almost immediately- I sure would have hated being one of the salespeople who got the customers to fire up for a $12K Crestron control panel.

You wrote the operative phrase- "as long as manufacturers provide the appropriate data".

I was saying that the touchscreen panels from Crestron sold themselves as convenience (for people with discretionary income), sorry for the confusion.

 

[Trebdp83]

Who pissed in your Wheaties?

I haven't had breakfast but I'll give it a sniff before I dig in.

 

[TLS Guy]

Mass marketing dealers want to see $$$, not strokers. It's still possible to build a smaller solid retail operation, but sales can no longer drive it; after-sales support, service, accessory sales and installation need to provide substantial revenue. It's not easy, but the ones who are successful have happy repeat customers and get new business through referrals.

Glad I don't have to pay for that. I do support my local dealers when I can. My issue is that I hardly ever buy anything! Years go by, before I buy anything new. My speakers are all DIY so no business there for local dealers, and the electronic I have changed is updating TVs, bought locally, and the AVPs updated three times in 20 years bought locally from Hi-Fi sound. I have updated, well largely added disc players, some bought locally, but two not. I have updated the internals of HTPCs over the years, but that is not something dealers stock. So unfortunately I do not get a lot of opportunity to support local dealers. I have always planned for the long haul. That is the cheapest way to get results and enjoy this hobby.

The problem as I see it, is that I know many who would like it, but are totally intimidated by the complexity. They do not feel they could ever get their minds round an AVR.

I really don't think we need these auto Eq setups for a start.

I think active, not powered speakers, with good Wi-Fi connectivity would bring a lot more to the table. I think with economies of scale better results could be obtained at less cost. Passive components have increased in cost enormously mainly because of the cost of inductors. I note manufacturers to keep costs down seem to progressively reduce the wire gauge of inductors. This is bad and puts a needless DC resistance in series with drivers. On the passive boards I have made the cost of the components was very significant. With the cost of good class D amps coming down active speakers could be on the market at competitive prices and offer performance far above passive designs.

Now if you don't want old analog sources then making the system easily set up and controllable from devices people already own is not a stretch. Streaming is no problem and disc players could easily be made Wi-Fi compatible.

I just don't buy this idea that AC outlets are a problem. Many will be nearby and adding AC outlets is commonly and easily done. So actually it would be a cosmetic upgrade compared to long speaker cables going to the "birds nests" at the back of AVRs.

I do believe was have the ability to offer a huge increase in quality for the many and make it user friendly by designing round devices they already own.

Unless some wise corporate leaders have the foresight to make significant change I fear good AV in the home could be just part of our history. There are just not enough of us "nerds" for a healthy sustainable market.

I close this with one last question. Would you rather power your system with a device crammed with power amps fed form a totally inadequate power supply with sleight of hand often times to meet testing procedures, or a system with amps designed specifically and optimally for the transducer they are connected to, that will always deliver the stated power under all conditions. I know which I vote for. That is the way ALL my systems are designed and I know it is the correct engineering approach.

 

[Hobbit]

Am I bovvered?!! Many use multichannel receivers that have been in service for decades. Nobody interested in a multichannel setup is in a hurry to wire in power outlets for all new powered speakers and trashing their current setup.

If you check the electrical code, you'll see that it requires outlets be installed at some distance from each other, to prevent plugging everything into one, using inadequate extension cords and overloading the circuits.

My comment in the Focal wireless speaker review thread was why didn't they make the speakers gangable? Thus, the front speakers can be ganged together and only need to use 1 outlet. Dito for the rears.

New and newer houses have more power outlets than older houses to accommodate modern technology and appliances. Modern homes also have higher amperage electrical panels to facilitate this.

I also don't think passive speakers are going away any time soon. A simple solution utilizing the same concept is a multichannel amp(s) with the necessary built in wireless (BT or whatever) capabilities. What's cool is there are a lot more placement options.

We need to think outside the box and change our paradigms.

 

[Trebdp83]

My point is that there is no such thing as a wireless speaker in a home theater scenario. You have to deal with speaker wires and/or power cords. Advertisements for most wirelessly connected speakers cleverly hide if not completely omit power cords from their images. Those not wanting to run speaker wires at all will still need to deal with power cords and will have to compromise speaker placement if power outlets aren't in optimal locations unless unsightly extension cords are used.. These issues can be tackled more easily in a newly constructed suburban home compared to an old house, mobile home or high rise apartment.

Concerning receivers themselves, they look like antiques compared to new Smart devices that have nothing but screen and a few vey small volume and power buttons on their edges. Touchscreens on AVRs do actually currently exist and would be more user friendly to anybody born in the twenty-first century than those featuring dated front displays.

T 778 - NAD Electronics

The T 778 features the latest developments in NAD’s Hybrid Digital technology to create 9 high current/high power channels of amplification.

nadelectronics.com

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Would you rather power your system with a device crammed with power amps...or......

Or a bunch of speakers all crammed with amps/DSP?

A 4-way-speaker would have 4 amps all crammed inside the speaker.

MOST people will just buy soundbars. If they venture beyond soundbars, then they'll spend $500 on one AVR and another $500-$1000 on all the speakers combined.

What makes you think MOST people would spend thousands of dollars on active speakers?

Now if you are referring only to audio enthusiasts, there are just NOT enough of us to justify all these manufacturers change to all active speakers.

But do go on with your rants about how AVRs are evil and everyone should sell everything and buy all active speakers.

 

[gene]

Quote attributed to Blair Tripodi, Chief Operating Officer of Masimo’s consumer division:

“The “discontinued operation” classification simply reflects an accounting adjustment related to how the consumer business is included in Masimo’s overall financial statements. It has no impact on the day-to-day operations of the consumer audio business, our products, or our level of service. As Masimo has indicated, the Company’s Board and management team are working hard to find the right home for our audio brands and then identifying the best path forward to get there. We remain committed to developing and supporting our market-leading brands, delivering the exceptional audio experiences our customers know and love.”

 

[TLS Guy]

Quote attributed to Blair Tripodi, Chief Operating Officer of Masimo’s consumer division:

“The “discontinued operation” classification simply reflects an accounting adjustment related to how the consumer business is included in Masimo’s overall financial statements. It has no impact on the day-to-day operations of the consumer audio business, our products, or our level of service. As Masimo has indicated, the Company’s Board and management team are working hard to find the right home for our audio brands and then identifying the best path forward to get there. We remain committed to developing and supporting our market-leading brands, delivering the exceptional audio experiences our customers know and love.”

I will translate that.

Mismimo's consumer audio business is up for sale.

We are putting the best face on this hoping to get the best price we can to sell it at less of a discount than we fear.
So essentially they have told us nothing we have not surmised in this thread.

The bottom line is that these brands will be sold to the highest bidder, and the rest is just "gloss" on the sales literature.

 

[3db]

Or a bunch of speakers all crammed with amps/DSP?


But do go on with your rants about how AVRs are evil and everyone should sell everything and buy all active speakers.

Parrots do like to repeat themselves at nauseum. Have you had any problems with your AVRs? I havent had one issue having 4 on active duty, the oldest an RX-V1800 which was produced in 2008. Its coming up to 20 years of operation.

 

[TLS Guy]

Or a bunch of speakers all crammed with amps/DSP?

A 4-way-speaker would have 4 amps all crammed inside the speaker.

MOST people will just buy soundbars. If they venture beyond soundbars, then they'll spend $500 on one AVR and another $500-$1000 on all the speakers combined.

What makes you think MOST people would spend thousands of dollars on active speakers?

Now if you are referring only to audio enthusiasts, there are just NOT enough of us to justify all these manufacturers change to all active speakers.

But do go on with your rants about how AVRs are evil and everyone should sell everything and buy all active speakers.

The bottom line is that outside of soundbars the home AV market is miniscule and of dubious profitability.
Another way of putting this is that there is consumer revolt about our current systems. If not they would sell. If things don't change we will all be the loosers. The result will be less choice and higher and higher unit costs.

So the best hope is that someone with real imagination buys this brand. If not I fear the outlook is bleak no matter how much you think AVRs are the apogee. Not enough of the public with discretionary input agree.

They want simpler reliable systems that offer superior results. Now the technology for this does not exist yet to do it justice, so work and R & D is required. People are just not buying AVRs in sufficient numbers to produce units at scale. The US is the largest market and in the rest of the world smaller.

So neat compact systems are the answer, with very simple set up. In other words idiot proof designs.

What do we have on most systems posted here. We see speakers of course, but also black boxes on not very elegant furniture in the front of the room below the TV. It not only looks bad, but it is a very bad location acoustically. It comes with an instruction manual that runs to hundreds of pages, peppered with terms few understand.

So we need systems that make use of what people already have as the foundation.

Yes, active speakers, two ways mostly will be required. Most of you don't have experience of active crossovers, but I have been gaining experience for forty years, and the benefits are enormous especially around and below the step frequency. So with a little work and ingenuity we should be able to get to the point where all you see is a screen and speakers. And you can have two or more speakers as to your funds and desires. You can add to them incrementally as desires, experience and funds permit in a seamless fashion.

So yes, we do need to create a new and better infrastructure if home AV is to survive. I truly believe what we have now is unsustainable and heading for the proverbial brick wall.

This is a time for new thinking and imagination and absolutely not business as usual from rigid thinkers.

 

[Cos]

Yamaha, Onkyo, Paradigm and other Botique Audio companies might at least increase their market share of an ever-smaller pie

 

[TLS Guy]

Yamaha, Onkyo, Paradigm and other Botique Audio company's might at least increase their market share of an ever-smaller pie

Without innovation that is the beginning of the end game.

I can't stress enough how important innovation will be to avoiding an end game scenario. This can be turned around.

 

[Cos]

Without innovation that is the beginning of the end game.

I can't stress enough how important innovation will be to avoiding an end game scenario. This an be turned around.

Was meant as a joke more than anything else. I think in general this industry is shrinking, that should not really be a surprise if you look at the interests/buying habits of Gen Z. All one needs to do is attend any audio show to find that a vast majority of attendees are in the over 50 crowd.

 

[Nondemo01]

LOL - I'm actually a guitarist. But I can only agree with your curmudgeon theory to a point. I have four kids and can tell you they consume music and video very differently. Yea, they think my home theater and guitars are super cool but beyond being impressed for a moment, they go right back to listening to their Airpods and watching Tiktoks on their phones. An upgrade to them might be a BT speaker. Maybe. They consume everything in bytes (pun intended). There is a generational shift in how media is consumed and there is nothing "curmudgeony" about it - its a fact.

Suffice it to say, there are several contributing factors that range from disposable income, how media is consumed, evolving technology, etc. that is shaking up this dinosaur of a hobby. My main point is that Sound United is made up of too many brands for an addressable market that is shrinking. That said, I think parts of it will survive and do not believe it will be a complete shut down. Either someone buys the whole thing for pennies on the dollar and sell off/shuts down some brands or the brands are sold off piece meal by Masimo - its going to be very different and I for one would like to see D&M stick around. Yes, they will need to innovate to attract a new (dare I say younger?) customer base and that addressable market will be a niche....just like the good ole' days of home theater. But the idea of them not being around really sucks a$$.

You nailed it by describing how your kids consume media. I'm a drummer and been around the music business for the better part of my adult life. (Mostly as a hobbyist to help pass my time in the Navy.) The A/V industry will go the way of the horse and buggy. iPhones and Airpods are the equivalent of the automobile to anyone under 30. And teens and younger watch/listen to/create EVERYTHING with their phones now. You see it in every aspect of entertainment.

Generations now don't even take time to learn an instrument when they have access to GarageBand-like creation devices. Heck, drummers play 4 bars of time and cut/paste it into ProTools and Beat Detective to quantize everything. Then cut/paste verses and choruses. Singing and playing is now a matter of using Auto Tune and viola, instant hit. The few artists that can actually write and record their own instruments are all in their late 40s and 50s.

Sadly, the end is near but also the gear has never been better. Truly the golden age of high-fi and home theater. Don't wait to get that next version of anything cause this is it. Next up, large TVs. Invest in Apple and Google AI and their Vision Pro. Heads-up displays will be the norm before you know it.

 

[MrBoat]

I have survived enough products disappearing to not worry such things. I'm pretty much set for life, audio wise, anyway, and can always DIY a power solution for good tunes. I have 3 amp kits worth of parts in my closet, yet. The next best thing cannot possibly be audibly better than where I have been thus far. My bedroom system doesn't even have subs, and I enjoy it as much as anything else. The band has been in the room (or better) with me for decades, regardless.

Once umbrella corporations became commonplace with food and everything else, brand names don't mean the same to me, nor loyalty, for that matter. Not as they once did. How many brand names are we going to really need to rebadge Icepower, ATI, Hypex and Purifi modules into?