Denon and Marantz could cease operations in 2025

[mtbdudex]

Class of 1980 HS, 62 years old not quite retired, 3 kids.
Hmm, so I just bought a Denon A1H that replaced my Feb-2018 bought 8500H for my dedicated 2 row 4 seat basement 9.2.6 HT

On top of that I shelled out $480 for Dirac via 20% off.

The whole global economy is still recovering from Covid.
Some brand further consolidation will happen.

Btw, I have 2.1 audio in my basement office.
My 22 year old daughter I set her up with 2.1 instead of a soundbar. That turntable is hers , I was just using it temporarily.

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[highfigh]

Class of 1980 HS, 62 years old not quite retired, 3 kids.
Hmm, so I just bought a Denon A1H that replaced my Feb-2018 bought 8500H for my dedicated 2 row 4 seat basement 9.2.6 HT




On top of that I shelled out $480 for Dirac via 20% off.


The whole global economy is still recovering from Covid.
Some brand further consolidation will happen.

Btw, I have 2.1 audio in my basement office.
My 22 year old daughter I set her up with 2.1 instead of a soundbar. That turntable is hers , I was just using it temporarily.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So, you don't use that desk for drafting anymore?

 

[mtbdudex]

So, you don't use that desk for drafting anymore?

Are you a fellow toolie??
If so are you in this FB group?

I got that drafting table from a work friend 20 years ago. It’s from GM tech center 12 mile and van dyke Warren MI. Was missing some parts, I made them, my wife used it initially as her craft room table, so we painted it bright green then.
Use it now in my basement office.
It still can be raised on an angle, but as setup now I don’t do that.

Drafting put me thru college and earn BSME & MSME, helped me minimize student loans.
That’s me lower left, well 41 years ago now…

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[Mikado463]

Are you a fellow toolie??
If so are you in this FB group?

I got that drafting table from a work friend 20 years ago. It’s from GM tech center 12 mile and van dyke Warren MI. Was missing some parts, I made them, my wife used it initially as her craft room table, so we painted it bright green then.
Use it now in my basement office.
It still can be raised on an angle, but as setup now I don’t do that.

Drafting put me thru college and earn BSME & MSME, helped me minimize student loans.
That’s me lower left, well 41 years ago now…

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow, thanks for the memories, back in the late sixties I took 'Design Technology' in HS and worked off many a table like those.

 

[MrBoat]

Did you know that Tom Scholz designed and built a lot of the equipment used for that first LP, other than the Ampex recorder? He modified and/or tweaked it to work & sound better, but he bought that. He graduated form MIT with degrees in EE and ME when he was 21. Then, he took the demo to the record company and that was released as their finished LP. Still disappointed? The best thing for them is that they didn't need to pay off a big recording advance.

Do you like the second Aerosmith LP? Did you know that some of the guitar tracks were played by Steve Hunter and lord helmet Wagner? If those names don't seem familiar, they were the guys who played the intro to 'Sweet Jane' on Lou Reed's 'Rock N Roll Animal' and recorded/toured with Alice Cooper.

'Train Kept A Rollin', one of the songs with Hunter and Wagner-

I said "I think" I was disappointed just from the shock factor from not knowing but it didn't last. Yes, I know all about Tom Sholz and have been a solid fan since I heard the very first lick on the radio. Back then, you had to catch the DJ mentioning the band name or it was going to be awhile, along with staying glued to the radio until you could find out who made that wonderful sound. At the time, I thought how incredible it was that they could get all the members to harmonize like that until I found out it was all (mostly?) Brad Delp. I just didn't know how to feel about it, is all. A lot of bands have used Sholz's inventions.

Aerosmith: Loved their first efforts and their debut albums was one of the first I ever bought with my own money, when I was transitioning from pop to rock. They were always in the lineup of records, but not my favorite. My favorite song by them is "Rats in the Cellar."

One of the things that added to the technical confusion at the time was seeing bands like ZZ Top perform live. They were pretty minimalist but still rocked without a lot of electronic help. Jefferson Starship was yet another. I didn't see much more equipment beyond that of some well equipped cover band in some cases. Their music was somehow more believable translated to recordings than others. Loved going to Kiss concerts, with the most technical wizardry coming from the likes of Pink Floyd with their wild light shows. Saw Ted Nugent live and he seemed pretty true to form on recordings, as well.

 

[highfigh]

Are you a fellow toolie??
If so are you in this FB group?


I got that drafting table from a work friend 20 years ago. It’s from GM tech center 12 mile and van dyke Warren MI. Was missing some parts, I made them, my wife used it initially as her craft room table, so we painted it bright green then.
Use it now in my basement office.
It still can be raised on an angle, but as setup now I don’t do that.

Drafting put me thru college and earn BSME & MSME, helped me minimize student loans.
That’s me lower left, well 41 years ago now…

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I took drafting from 8th grade, through high school and into college, which is where I decided that I no longer wanted to be an architect. If I had spoken with different people, like friends did, I might have continued but several who finished, left the field or construction industry, some stayed and had set more realistic goals than I. I never stopped drawing/drafting, but I was also using a board that was too small to be practical. I later found a drafting machine (was really looking for a Post drafting arm or something similar, but found the one in the photo. I found the table early this year on FB Marketplace, for $35 and couldn't pass it up. Somehow, it's exactly the size needed for the machine and I didn't need to change anything. I just need to find the vertical scale- no idea where it went.....still need the cover but I did go out and buy some new lead holders, etc.

 

[highfigh]

I said "I think" I was disappointed just from the shock factor from not knowing but it didn't last. Yes, I know all about Tom Sholz and have been a solid fan since I heard the very first lick on the radio. Back then, you had to catch the DJ mentioning the band name or it was going to be awhile, along with staying glued to the radio until you could find out who made that wonderful sound. At the time, I thought how incredible it was that they could get all the members to harmonize like that until I found out it was all (mostly?) Brad Delp. I just didn't know how to feel about it, is all. A lot of bands have used Sholz's inventions.

Aerosmith: Loved their first efforts and their debut albums was one of the first I ever bought with my own money, when I was transitioning from pop to rock. They were always in the lineup of records, but not my favorite. My favorite song by them is "Rats in the Cellar."

One of the things that added to the technical confusion at the time was seeing bands like ZZ Top perform live. They were pretty minimalist but still rocked without a lot of electronic help. Jefferson Starship was yet another. I didn't see much more equipment beyond that of some well equipped cover band in some cases. Their music was somehow more believable translated to recordings than others. Loved going to Kiss concerts, with the most technical wizardry coming from the likes of Pink Floyd with their wild light shows. Saw Ted Nugent live and he seemed pretty true to form on recordings, as well.

There's still a lot of conversation about "I want them to play it like the record" and I" DON'T want them to play it like the record". Anyone can be a parrot and regurgitate the record, but I have to imagine that's one of the reasons so many band members leave, get it fights and go nuts after years of same old, same old. OTOH, I read a comment by someone who is very well known, even if I can't remember their name- "That song bought your house, cars, plane and just about everything else- play it like the record and be happy people still want to go to your shows".

I have seen many bands play it like the record and some were very precise and I have seen many play the music with much more freedom to veer away from the original but sill do it so it was very recognizable - the Dregs and Beat (half of the 1980's version of King Crimson) didn't stray too far from the original which flies in the face of what Gene Simmons said recently about people wanting simple music and that he liked a lot of great musicians, but can't sing or hum any of their music. The audiences for both of those bands KNOW the music inside & out. I was surprised by the number of women and younger people at both shows which were all music recorded roughly 40 years ago.

 

[MrBoat]

There's still a lot of conversation about "I want them to play it like the record" and I" DON'T want them to play it like the record". Anyone can be a parrot and regurgitate the record, but I have to imagine that's one of the reasons so many band members leave, get it fights and go nuts after years of same old, same old. OTOH, I read a comment by someone who is very well known, even if I can't remember their name- "That song bought your house, cars, plane and just about everything else- play it like the record and be happy people still want to go to your shows".

I have seen many bands play it like the record and some were very precise and I have seen many play the music with much more freedom to veer away from the original but sill do it so it was very recognizable - the Dregs and Beat (half of the 1980's version of King Crimson) didn't stray too far from the original which flies in the face of what Gene Simmons said recently about people wanting simple music and that he liked a lot of great musicians, but can't sing or hum any of their music. The audiences for both of those bands KNOW the music inside & out. I was surprised by the number of women and younger people at both shows which were all music recorded roughly 40 years ago.

There's really nothing to disagree with on any of how we measure music quality. Sound quality is yet something else. At the very least, the most synthesized of it is at least fluid, or melodic sound effects that still sound good to me regardless. I suppose I should be stricter in this regard but there seems to be enough time allotted in life for all of it. Was listening to Talking Heads "Speaking in Tongues" album last night and I could hear so many cool percussion effects and fun in the melodies. I listened from beginning to end. The group Yello/Boris Blank is another sort of nonsensical thing that keeps me from living in a perpetual short list loop of proper recordings. Will listen to several of their albums back-to-back. Fun stuff, regardless of how real or fake it is.

 

[highfigh]

There's really nothing to disagree with on any of how we measure music quality. Sound quality is yet something else. At the very least, the most synthesized of it is at least fluid, or melodic sound effects that still sound good to me regardless. I suppose I should be stricter in this regard but there seems to be enough time allotted in life for all of it. Was listening to Talking Heads "Speaking in Tongues" album last night and I could hear so many cool percussion effects and fun in the melodies. I listened from beginning to end. The group Yello/Boris Blank is another sort of nonsensical thing that keeps me from living in a perpetual short list loop of proper recordings. Will listen to several of their albums back-to-back. Fun stuff, regardless of how real or fake it is.

Yeah, they (Talking Heads) definitely used the studio and technology for getting what they wanted and needed. Jerry Harrison was a customer when I worked at the stereo store and I didn't meet him until a few years after 'Tongues' or 'Stop Making Sense, but he had moved back to MKE and was producing a lot of music in the mid to late-'80s at a few local studios and elsewhere, as well as recording his 'Casual Gods' record. I got to listen to some test pressings of that at his house, with certain tracks cut in various parts of the LPs, to find out where they sounded best/worst. Jerry later moved to California and opened or bought a recording studio in the San Francisco area.

WRT what we listen to and how we listen- it really varies and for some, the music stands alone and they don't think about any technical aspects but for the ones who do listen to that aspect of recordings, some can nail the brand and model of microphones used, where the ones who only hear and listen to the music don't care.

Do you still listen to music that you first heard when you were young? I don't mean 'as a little kid' so much, but it still applies.

 

[Nondemo01]

It's really sad that most modern pop music doesn't even have a real drummer in it. Think of the 80s when we had Phil Collins doing great pop with innovative drumming. That seems to be all but gone in mainstream music.

It's weird cause the ability to learn has never been easier. YouTube allows me to access "lessons" with greats without leaving my drum room and the talent of the kids who are on YouTube has NEVER been higher. But the vast majority of youth just don't spend the time making the whole industry a pyramid. Tiny group of players playing on everything and the rest get programmers or sample someone else's beats. Back to Marantz, I really hope they can diversify and keep going. I buy D&M stuff cause it just works. Everything about their products is well thought out, includes the stuff we ask for (thanks to Gene and AH pushing for it!), and they don't treat us as "beta testers at a premium" but as valued customers. It will be a sad day if they get gobbled up and sold for IP. Fingers crossed!

P.S. Gene, you'll appreciate Peter Gabriel "Secret World Live". Manu Katche's drumming is so over the top but perfect. And SoundGarden "Superunknown" album with Matt Cameron is probably the most raw drum sound I've ever heard recoded. That's as close as you'll get without sitting next to him. That album is so upfront and in your face and screams "90s music".

 

[highfigh]

It's weird cause the ability to learn has never been easier. YouTube allows me to access "lessons" with greats without leaving my drum room and the talent of the kids who are on YouTube has NEVER been higher. But the vast majority of youth just don't spend the time making the whole industry a pyramid. Tiny group of players playing on everything and the rest get programmers or sample someone else's beats. Back to Marantz, I really hope they can diversify and keep going. I buy D&M stuff cause it just works. Everything about their products is well thought out, includes the stuff we ask for (thanks to Gene and AH pushing for it!), and they don't treat us as "beta testers at a premium" but as valued customers. It will be a sad day if they get gobbled up and sold for IP. Fingers crossed!

P.S. Gene, you'll appreciate Peter Gabriel "Secret World Live". Manu Katche's drumming is so over the top but perfect. And SoundGarden "Superunknown" album with Matt Cameron is probably the most raw drum sound I've ever heard recoded. That's as close as you'll get without sitting next to him. That album is so upfront and in your face and screams "90s music".

Corporations are gobbled up all the time- IMO, it's the MBA grads who cause this. It looks good on paper, so they buy, cut up and sell parts of companies just for the money without giving a microsecond of thought to the company history, customer base & its loyalty. Management bears the bulk of the blame- if they were really aware of the markets, what was needed vs wanted and were more in tune with finding people who can make it happen some of them might survive. BTW- Denon, as a company, started in 1910.

But learning from a teacher who can give immediate feedback is very helpful in ways that prevent learning mistakes and having to unlearn them. WRT kids on YouTube- check into their background- a lot of them have/had parents who were professional musicians but even then, if they didn't have talent, they wouldn't be playing the stuff they do and they wouldn't have as many followers. I saw a group of Polish kids playing 'Red Baron', by Billy Cobham. First, there aren't many kids of that age who have ever heard of him, they usually don't care about that kind of music and even if they did, couldn't play it and yet, here they are, doing it. This video is ten years old-

 

[mtbdudex]

Well 3+ weeks in CY 2025 .. any update on D&M ?


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[M Code]

I was hoping someone in the know would jump in here. Thanks for the update Gene.

though who would have thought Bose would buy McIntosh. Strange times in the AV industry.

Bose bought McIntosh for one simple reason...
To expand their automotive OE system info-tainment business.. Bose does significant $$ in the OE auto biz, but only about 25% compared to Harman's 65% market share...
Harman/Samsung derive 78% of their profits far outpacing Bose's revenue from that category.
Major issue that Bose faced in penetrating the OE automotive info-tainment biz was their lack of brands while Harman had multiple brands allowing them to service a far wider range of automotive clients..

Just my $0.02...

 

[TLS Guy]

Bose bought McIntosh for one simple reason...
To expand their automotive OE system info-tainment business.. Bose does significant $$ in the OE auto biz, but only about 25% compared to Harman's 65% market share...
Harman/Samsung derive 78% of their profits far outpacing Bose's revenue from that category.
Major issue that Bose faced in penetrating the OE automotive info-tainment biz was their lack of brands while Harman had multiple brands allowing them to service a far wider range of automotive clients..

Just my $0.02...

So are we are going to see the McIntosh label on the in car entertainment units of high end vehicles, Cadillac/Lincoln etc?

 

[Mikado463]

Bose bought McIntosh for one simple reason...
To expand their automotive OE system info-tainment business.. Bose does significant $$ in the OE auto biz, but only about 25% compared to Harman's 65% market share...
Harman/Samsung derive 78% of their profits far outpacing Bose's revenue from that category.
Major issue that Bose faced in penetrating the OE automotive info-tainment biz was their lack of brands while Harman had multiple brands allowing them to service a far wider range of automotive clients..

Just my $0.02...

add Subaru has just left Harman for all the issues they have been having, so I was told last week at the Philly auto Show

 

[everettT]

So are we are going to see the McIntosh label on the in car entertainment units of high end vehicles, Cadillac/Lincoln etc?

Currently Jeep. Lincoln has Revel and is one the best car stereos I've heard. IIRC Cadillac is still bose..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All car stereo sounds like crap to me due to road noises, even on my Lexus LX’s Mark Levinson system.

All kinds of road noises will turn your THD+N of 0.0001% to 10%.

 

[Bobby Bass]

A lot of changes in car audio. My 2025 Genesis has a Lexicon sound system from Harman that reminds me of my Revel speakers. They have moved to Bang and Olufsen for the 2026 model year. They used another manufacturer before Harman.

 

[Teetertotter?]

I think my Denon[2021] should hold up for a long time. I still have my Denon[2016] model, on standby. My Denon is on16 hours a day or more, cause, I forget to turn it off, as I go to sleep. I only use 5 channels out of 7. Denon always. lol

 

[trochetier]

Bose bought McIntosh for one simple reason...
To expand their automotive OE system info-tainment business.. Bose does significant $$ in the OE auto biz, but only about 25% compared to Harman's 65% market share...
Harman/Samsung derive 78% of their profits far outpacing Bose's revenue from that category.
Major issue that Bose faced in penetrating the OE automotive info-tainment biz was their lack of brands while Harman had multiple brands allowing them to service a far wider range of automotive clients..

Just my $0.02...

Also, so they can relabel their crap as McIntosh and jack up the price.
B(asically)O(verpriced)S(ound)E(quipment)