Danley DTS-10, or other?

[MidnightSensi]

Sometimes the output of pre-amps are listed in the specs if you dig, and the input sensitivity is listed in the amplifier specs. The input sensitivity is a function of amplifier gain . You will want to match it with the output level of whatever is before the amp in the audio chain. This is called gain staging, the idea is maximized total system gain. Basically, clipping everything in the chain at the same point. If you clip the pre-amp before the amp, then you lost headroom. If you clip the amp before the pre-amp, then you lost headroom. If that point never comes close to being met, then someone could get by without having gain staged properly and not know it (or have it matter for practical purposes).

I thought I read of something a person did to help make the seal airtight with the binding posts/panel, but I don't remember it.

A gasket should be enough for the panel. Silicone if you feel you need it around the connectors.

 

[jostenmeat]

I cannot easily find the preamp specs yet. XTI2000 sensitivity for full power at 4 ohms = 1.4V.

Not sure what this means, but Voltage Gain (at 1 kHz, 8 ohm rated output) = 32.9 dB.

I asked my wood friend about glue, and particularly the PL stuff that many are using on this sub. He was at first surprised, as it expands, and will have air in it. I am assuming people use this for a better seal. I think the difficulty might be that the glue will squeeze out, and hopefully it will be in small enough amounts so as not to create a significant volume change.

I'm thinking glue issues might be related to the above. My friend advised that we glue it all, except for one large side (but still screw it in during curing), to help keep the pieces aligned while the glue exerts its own force, and then to finally take the last side off to glue it back on. I'll have to look into it more.

If ufokillerz or tcarcio have any enlightening thoughts, I'd appreciate it.

 

[lsiberian]

Sometimes the output of pre-amps are listed in the specs if you dig, and the input sensitivity is listed in the amplifier specs. The input sensitivity is a function of amplifier gain . You will want to match it with the output level of whatever is before the amp in the audio chain. This is called gain staging, the idea is maximized total system gain. Basically, clipping everything in the chain at the same point. If you clip the pre-amp before the amp, then you lost headroom. If you clip the amp before the pre-amp, then you lost headroom. If that point never comes close to being met, then someone could get by without having gain staged properly and not know it (or have it matter for practical purposes).



A gasket should be enough for the panel. Silicone if you feel you need it around the connectors.

Silicone Caulk is cheap I use it in every seam of a box.

 

[MidnightSensi]

That's a voltage gain of 44x or so. Basically, this is telling you that the input stage won't clip, regardless of what your pre-amp throws at it ... it's up to you to set the attentuation knobs appropriately so that the output stages are at unity with the rest of the chain.

Not sure if I'm explaining myself well, but the idea is you want the amplifier gain set so that your processor are just below their limits when you are producing the maximum power you want to achieve. If the amplifier gain is higher, you will be turning the processor down, which increases the noise level; if the amplifier attentuation knobs ('gain' knobs, as they are called, but really they are attentuation knobs...because gain is fixed) is too low, you won't be able to achieve the power levels to the speakers you want without the processor running into distortion.

The reason I say this may not practically matter in the home, is with such a big amp and sensitivity subwoofer, you could give up a lot of headroom and have it not matter versus you WOULD notice it in a club/theater/etc.

So practically, with the amp running at 1.4V and the +4dBu "pro" processor (what the Samson will convert the signal too), you should expect to need about 14dB more amplifier gain to get the same result from a -10dBu consumer output. Higher noise floor and wasted headroom, harder working amp. Again, if this is noticable in a home with a huge amp on a subwoofer is questionable. For some high sensitivity mains, I can almost assure you it would matter (you'd hear hissing from the compression drivers) even in the home.

So, that's why I'm kind of like "well, I'd say you should use the conversion box, but it may or may not matter in practical use"

 

[MidnightSensi]

Silicone Caulk is cheap I use it in every seam of a box.

The glue is probably enough, but, yeah, I'd have the tube rockin' for a speaker for sure.

 

[jostenmeat]

So, that's why I'm kind of like "well, I'd say you should use the conversion box, but it may or may not matter in practical use"

Thanks MS. I'll probably get that, maybe I'll order it over the next couple of days, perhaps along with some speakons.

I just ran a few errands, and stopped by Home Depot for all of the necessary screws, some washers, and a 36oz bottle of Gorilla glue. They didn't have any PL in stock.

That's the latest.

 

[adwilk]

Along with RMK's thread, this thread might be another one I'll have to force myself to stay out of...

Nice purchase, John. I can't wait to not hear any impressions of finished project...

 

[Alex2507]

Silicone Caulk is cheap I use it in every seam of a box.

Compared to latex caulk it's like 2 times as expensive, hard to work with and unpaintable so be careful with that stuff.

a 36oz bottle of Gorilla glue. They didn't have any PL in stock.

Gorilla glue? PL comes in caulk tubes like Liquid Nails, right? In like a 2000, 4000 and 6000 series? I think I've heard bad things about Gorilla Glue. There's a regular wood glue/carpenters glue but the name escapes me ATM. Titebond !!!

I didn't read the whole thread so excuse me if I'm not up to speed.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I don't know anything about woodworking but when I was talking to the Woodmill guy about building me a sub he said that Gorilla Glue was about the only glue tested that failed before the wood failed. He said he will only use Titebond on things he builds.

Gorilla glue? PL comes in caulk tubes like Liquid Nails, right? In like a 2000, 4000 and 6000 series? I think I've heard bad things about Gorilla Glue. There's a regular wood glue/carpenters glue but the name escapes me ATM. Titebond !!!

I didn't read the whole thread so excuse me if I'm not up to speed.

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks for the warning regarding Gorilla glue. My friend mentioned it, saying even that is like 10x stronger than the wood itself (he said the wood will break first), but I think he probably had basic maple in mind. But, I'm not sure that Baltic Birch is any stronger. Maybe I'll go back to exchange for titebond. I think I do remember a pic of Gorilla glue in that thread though. Though my friend also mentioned that the PL stuff is even way stronger than Gorilla. The first post in the AVS thread says that any wood glue is fine, but better safe than sorry I suppose.

More purchases to consider:

I was looking at adding additional shelves to my modular studio tech, but they're like $60, and if I was thinking of something like three, then that also could just pay for a new "set". Then I was thinking of Middle Atlantic pro racks, but again I'm lost. I think I would be fine with the "open" style that are much cheaper, but I dunno. I guess they would be "enclosure"-less, but at least that means better ventilation.

Midnight, I need your help again! lol. Remember, I have not yet bought any gear that is "rack-mountable", except for one unnamed power center, I think?
http://www.middleatlantic.com/enclosure/main.htm

Then I also looked into the SVS ASEQ-1. Which also led me to the Audyssey Sub EQ. What I know so far is that they are identical, and that the Pro Kit used to calibrate for the Sub EQ is more precise than the SVS mic, but it also costs around $550 for the Pro Kit. BUT, that Pro kit would work for Pro Audyssey on a capable unit (which I don't own).

I guess the SVS would be the one to go with in this situation, but I do prefer the Audyssey faceplate, and I have read that the lights on the SVS might be bright enough to be deemed offensive.

I cannot see myself accurately calibrating for two subs (of such different nature as well), for such a large listening area. If I experiment with sub placement, with SVS/AS it's only another 1-2 hours to recalibrate, and with a Behringer I don't want to know. I can't imagine interpreting so many graphs, and to get them to work well together; individually first, then as ensemble. Hm.


Oh yeah (man, it seems that there are so many things to look into), but I thankfully caught this blurb by Ivan, with the pro/cons of wiring bridged vs un-bridged:

It is as simple as hooking up as I stated.

In the true bridge mode you will get ha higher voltage swing-which results in more output power, but the damping of the system will be 1/4 of what it would be if you hook up a driver to each output terminal and run it normal.

And by normal, 1 of the drivers HAS to be inverted somewhere. Whether this is by the bridge switch-or the wires hooked to the terminals of the amp or on the connections on one of the drivers-it doesn't matter.

There is no sonic advantage to one vs the other-except that by using the bridge switch to invert the polarity, all the wiring stays "normal" ie +to+.

It is more of a quantity vs quality type thing. And the quality will vary depending on the amp you use-the size wire you use and the length of the wire. You WILL notice a difference in the quantity side of things (if you need it that loud) and may or may not notice a difference in the quality side-it jsut depends

I think I'd prefer tightness over output (since output seems to be so abundant already), but I dunno. I was assuming I'd just follow the given instructions, you know: K.I.S.S.

 

[jostenmeat]

Along with RMK's thread, this thread might be another one I'll have to force myself to stay out of...

Nice purchase, John. I can't wait to not hear any impressions of finished project...

Well, you only have to stay away for 2 more hours, and then you won't be able to buy this thing anymore. It will be officially discontinued at 5pm Eastern, today. Then it will be a commercial pre-built, at about $3,000.

 

[jostenmeat]

So I just ordered thru Amazon, total about $130 shipped (few vendors). Closing in fast on all the necessary goods. If I run bridged mode, then just a 2 pole speakon is fine, but at least the 4 pole allows me to go un-bridged (what the heck is the proper term in this case anyways) if need be with only one plug still (I can just pick up 4 conductor wire).

Now, I'm just going to wait for Midnight to tell me which affordable rack to get.

 

[adwilk]

Well, you only have to stay away for 2 more hours, and then you won't be able to buy this thing anymore. It will be officially discontinued at 5pm Eastern, today. Then it will be a commercial pre-built, at about $3,000.

Ok, I'm back....

 

[MidnightSensi]

I dig the Middle Atlantic stuff. For me (I'm weird), the wire management, panels, power strips, doors, shelves, cooling accessories and so on are like a whole other thing to tinker with. I've had my Middle Atlantic for a long time, I don't even remember what it cost, but it's modular. So you buy the frame (mine is a WRK), doors, wheels, panels, and so forth as needed....so it is hard to say.

Most of my stuff is rack mountable, but if you look at my Playstation, you can see they make custom panels for stuff without rack ears. A lot of stuff they already have, or you can send them dimensions. Then you buy a shelf, and a faceplate. The unit sits on the shelf and you push it through the faceplate. Some stuff looks absolutely badass like this.

Believe it or not, open racks don't cool as well as well designed closed ones. It's a chimney effect. Check out this link with lots of good stuff:
http://repnet.middleatlantic.com/COMPANY/MarketingFiles/TempInsideRacks/Thermal%20Management%203-04.pdf


I need to take some better pictures, but here are a few I found:

See the playstation shelf?

Dark picture, but see how the playstation just kind of sits flush in the panel? Notice the Monster unit at the bottom I did the same way, even though it has rack ears. It just looked better on the shelf with a flush faceplate. Actually for some reason in that picture its kinda pushed back, but like now it is pushed 'through' the faceplate.

I'll snap some better pictures.

 

[jostenmeat]

Hm. Thanks MS. If I went with a rack, I think I'd just get the bare bones skeleton, because this project is already spiraling out of control I fear.

I've been recommended to use the new JBL BassQ for my bass mgmt, if I wanted to combine my subs. The problem is the price tag at about 1.2k. According to Ivan, even a DCX (let alone the typical measuring software that is used), can't deal with my issue, let alone work below 20hz. He didn't give the JBL the thumbs up himself, but someone else I quite trust did. Now, I have a new issue of whether I use both subs to begin with, or not. Ok, I'll give a partial quote from Ivan:

Possibly. IF you have a real "open" type DSP (the DCX2496 is NOT one of those-think Biamp Audia or Nexia-BSS etc, AND if you have the measurement tools (free downloads aren't going to cut it), AND the skill of how to use them AND know how to do it. But none of the pro units that offer the features needed-work below 20Hz-that I am aware of.

EDIT: that ventilation PDF is something else, LOL.

 

[MidnightSensi]

Hm. Thanks MS. If I went with a rack, I think I'd just get the bare bones skeleton, because this project is already spiraling out of control I fear.

I've been recommended to use the new JBL BassQ for my bass mgmt, if I wanted to combine my subs. The problem is the price tag at about 1.2k. According to Ivan, even a DCX (let alone the typical measuring software that is used), can't deal with my issue, let alone work below 20hz. He didn't give the JBL the thumbs up himself, but someone else I quite trust did. Now, I have a new issue of whether I use both subs to begin with, or not. Ok, I'll give a partial quote from Ivan:




EDIT: that ventilation PDF is something else, LOL.

Haha, I feel ya there. The racks don't really add anything other than a nice place to put stuff. You could get just a WRK shell and then if you wanted to add anything in the future do so. Or, really, temperary racks can be made using some wood, L-brackets and a drill. B&H and any pro-sound place sells some cheap racks too, which don't last long but work for a while. A lot of them are just black partical board with L-brackets, but they work for what they are.

As far as the DSP, for that last 10Hz or whatever, which you can't even hear, my attitude is it isn't dollar for performance valueable. If one day you got a lotta extra cheese to spend, then consider a high end DSP. In the mean time, your Crown has a like 12 band variable q EQ which should be more than enough to get you started.

Basically, stop spending until your sub comes and then see where you think it will be most valuable to go next.

 

[jostenmeat]

Gorilla glue? PL comes in caulk tubes like Liquid Nails, right? In like a 2000, 4000 and 6000 series? I think I've heard bad things about Gorilla Glue. There's a regular wood glue/carpenters glue but the name escapes me ATM. Titebond !!!

I didn't read the whole thread so excuse me if I'm not up to speed.

I talked to my wood friend again. He, like you, prefers titebond typically, however he mentioned that I still probably want to use the Gorilla as it foams (which leads him to think it will provide a better seal than titebond which doesn't foam, according to him).

 

[ufokillerz]

I talked to my wood friend again. He, like you, prefers titebond typically, however he mentioned that I still probably want to use the Gorilla as it foams (which leads him to think it will provide a better seal than titebond which doesn't foam, according to him).

a lot of people use PL Premium Polyurethane Construction Adhesive. That thing fills in all gaps, and then some.

 

[jostenmeat]

So my Crown arrived today . . . but. . . it's damaged. Something penetrated the outer box, the original box, all the way to punch/bend a dime sized section of the bottom of the amp. The damaged part is white, unlike the rest of the amp being black. BOO!!

I should be reimbursed for return charges, and should not be charged for a replacement, I hope/presume? Poopie.

No rush though, might be a few weeks away still from having the sub anyhow.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

That stinks

So my Crown arrived today . . . but. . . it's damaged. Something penetrated the outer box, the original box, all the way to punch/bend a dime sized section of the bottom of the amp. The damaged part is white, unlike the rest of the amp being black. BOO!!

I should be reimbursed for return charges, and should not be charged for a replacement, I hope/presume? Poopie.

No rush though, might be a few weeks away still from having the sub anyhow.