Danley DTS-10, or other?

[annunaki]

Oh, I thought for some reason that you were shooting for 2, my bad...

I guess I wasn't sure what size room you were working with... no mention that I saw.... 1 should certainly blow the F113 away in output by quite a stretch....
So 1 should run $1K plus amp, I would suggest a smaller amp that will push 1kw at 4 ohms bridged... you may or may not need the samson, but EQ would be a good idea. Not sure I would spend the money on the SVS unit myself...

Where do you live...? Maybe someone could come run sweeps and help you setup EQ on a 1124 for cheap...

No question as I said - If I could fit them I would buy a pair - Heck I suppose I should buy a pair just for the pricing alone, and I could sell them to someone that missed the early pricing - my room is so stupidly large it has been an adventure and a great learning experience about subs and bass in general...

My subwoofer upgrade journey will be showing up this week - and it will be wicked, pics will be forthcoming....

You are upgrading AGAIN!!

I thought you just received your LMS's a few months back???

 

[tcarcio]

You are upgrading AGAIN!!

I thought you just received your LMS's a few months back???

There is no escaping the sickness.........

 

[Warpdrv]

You are upgrading AGAIN!!

I thought you just received your LMS's a few months back???

I sure am

There is no escaping the sickness.........

No there isn't

 

[lsiberian]

just wondering what other horn kits are out there that can dig as low as the danley? i had considered the tht for the longest time, but it doesn't go that low.

to be honest I've not played with the DTS10, but it really depends on the design. I prefer high output at 20hz+ over extension. (everything is a tradeoff between the two)

As far as kits I'm not sure. I do know Danley makes great products.

 

[Matt34]

You are upgrading AGAIN!!

I thought you just received your LMS's a few months back???

Same LMS's, just different enclosures.

 

[Warpdrv]

Same LMS's, just different enclosures.

Now that wouldn't be a sizable upgrade now would it....?

Now just hush and wait for it...

 

[jostenmeat]

I guess I wasn't sure what size room you were working with... no mention that I saw.... 1 should certainly blow the F113 away in output by quite a stretch....
So 1 should run $1K plus amp, I would suggest a smaller amp that will push 1kw at 4 ohms bridged... you may or may not need the samson, but EQ would be a good idea. Not sure I would spend the money on the SVS unit myself...

Maybe someone could come run sweeps and help you setup EQ on a 1124 for cheap...

Warp, perhaps I am somehow mistaken, but if I bridged, then I would need two amps per sub, correct? There are two drivers. I thought I saw two sets of terminals on the box.

Well, I might move at a snail's pace compared to a few people around here, but it still does change up quite frequently. If I hired someone, I'd probably have to keep rehiring. So that either leaves me to figure it all out (I'd probably make it worse).

The other argument towards the SVS is that I have a large viewing area, 8 seats, taking up I dunno about a 11' x 7' floor space. When you use these Behringers, how many spots are you calibrating for? Just one captain's seat? The SVS measures 32 positions for a pretty resolving picture of what's going on in the room.

Don't get me wrong though, I really appreciate the thoughts.

Oh, I thought for some reason that you were shooting for 2, my bad...

No question as I said - If I could fit them I would buy a pair - Heck I suppose I should buy a pair just for the pricing alone, and I could sell them to someone that missed the early pricing - my room is so stupidly large it has been an adventure and a great learning experience about subs and bass in general...

Another vote for two here if you can muster it. It's a powerful subwoofer, but judging from your screen and room size, plus large listening area, you'll want another to EQ and place seperately.

That said, I realize budgets are what they are... I'm budget limited too.... and space is what it is.

You could look into Captivators from JTR also, and maybe get a package for some mains and bins from him.

This is so funny. I'm like, aw geez, do I pull this off to get one, and now we're talking two! One is a stretch right now, but two might truly be utterly irresposible with my money.

I am now considering two.

Though, now, I am considering the Seymour CenterStageXD screen instead, thanks to that blasted rmk. The price would be just about identical to a single Danley/amp/shipping I believe.

 

[jostenmeat]

I'm trying to read through the billion posts at the AVS thread, and gosh they get technical. My head hurts. Bill Fitzmaurice seems to have posted quite a bit there too. Ow.

I guess this thing is really, truly, an annihilator. You guys want me to get two?

I see that one (very smart) person has been convinced that it will work fine in conjunction with his sealed sub, but that's several months ago. I'm logging off because of the pain in my brain.


Hey Warp, how do you think the SQ will be compared to the F113? I know it will leave it in the dust as far as output and extension, but I am indeed spoiled by first class sub SQ.

 

[MidnightSensi]

I'm trying to read through the billion posts at the AVS thread, and gosh they get technical. My head hurts. Bill Fitzmaurice seems to have posted quite a bit there too. Ow.

I guess this thing is really, truly, an annihilator. You guys want me to get two?

I see that one (very smart) person has been convinced that it will work fine in conjunction with his sealed sub, but that's several months ago. I'm logging off because of the pain in my brain.


Hey Warp, how do you think the SQ will be compared to the F113? I know it will leave it in the dust as far as output and extension, but I am indeed spoiled by first class sub SQ.

It's not so much the advantage in output (although that is part of it in a larger room), but rather the ability to flatten and blend bass response in your room and with your speakers...and do as much of it as possible before you touch a DSP. It makes the latter more subtle and, generally yields better results. If you have one subwoofer, especially a large one, placement options can really limit your ability to tinker with room peaks and (especially) dips.

That said, money is money. There are tons of things I'd love to do with my system that I just don't have the cheese for. The hobby is more fun when it isn't a huge financial drain, no sense in adding another subwoofer if it is going to make you tight on cash. You can always measure the panels and duplicate it later if they don't make the kit anymore.

 

[Warpdrv]

Hey Warp, how do you think the SQ will be compared to the F113? I know it will leave it in the dust as far as output and extension, but I am indeed spoiled by first class sub SQ.

I liken the F113 to very close to the same SQ of the LMS... both are very controlled drivers but as MS states it will be room dependent.

I'm sorry I really haven't read heavily into what should be the driving power, though I believe 4 ohm per channel, not sure how much power they should be getting though.... I'll try to peel my way through the thread over there in the morning... but I think something between 600 and 1000w / channel, EP2500 or EP4000 should suffice...

From what I read - 1 should provide an amazing amount of output in a 20 x 60 ft room - though I doubt it will equal the tightness of the F113 from what Ricci suggested, he also has an LMS and Quad sealed 18" XXX subs... he is very keen on clean tight bass.

 

[ufokillerz]

others on avs have noted that the dts-10 was the cleanest sounding sub they have ever heard, something about having very low distortion. i believe there is some truth to that, but the only subs i've had in the past were 2x mfw-15s and a dayton titanic 15. the dts-10 definitely sounds leagues apart from them.

what had me convinced the most that these things work great.. a friend of mine was real close to having a heart attack (face pale, difficulties breathing) after a few explosions from hurt locker. that had me convinced that this sub was working.

 

[Warpdrv]

Ok I asked Ricci what his thoughts on the DTS in comparison for SQ.... specifically mentioning the F113

I'd still take the LMS for pure SQ and versatility. XXX as a little behind but offering more guts on the super lows. However what the DTS does in the low 30hz and under bass is something special. It is so clean even at very solid levels. Seriously what it does with 10-25hz is the smoothest/ cleanest I've ever heard. With the direct radiator subs you can hear just a tiny bit of extra noise from the driver surrounds and the cone, or port noises. That stuff is gone with the TH cab at least until you start to overdrive it. I'd put a big amp on one. I'd consider an EP4000 bridged as a good choice and really there's no reason to go smaller. It's an efficient cab but it's still nice to have plenty of power for crazy peaks without clipping. It's a loud cab but it does have limits. A pair of LMS's or sealed XXX's on BIG power will outgun one below 30hz by a few db's at full tilt, but that shouldn't be a surprise really. You know what kind of output we are talking about there. Danley measured 102.1db at 12hz outside in a test like Illka's. Way past single JL F113 territory. You'd need 3 or 4 F113's to play in that league. The 40-100hz range will get CRAZY loud for regular old music. That's one DTS10 with 2 rather unassuming 12's in it on something about the size of an EP4000.

I'd suggest getting the kit, an EP4000 for power and a DCX2496 to tame the best. It does need some EQ and tweaking to get it into it's best form. After that it's a winner.

 

[jostenmeat]

Ok I asked Ricci what his thoughts on the DTS in comparison for SQ.... specifically mentioning the F113

Thanks a lot, I appreciate the effort in helping me out. I'm sure you've come across MKTheater's posts before. He said, if a while ago, that he compares a single DTS10 to two huge sonosubs fitted with 18"ers. He said at some frequencies, his dual DTS10 beat out his EIGHT 18"s. He claims he is getting usable output down to 7hz I believe.

I see that a ton of owners do apply Audyssey, but that a great majority of those are applying other external EQ as well, in addition. It seems the consensus is to apply "manual" EQ first, and then run Audyssey.

OTOH, I think* it was Ivan Beaver who was really showing his distaste for using a simple RS meter, if in conjunction with REW. He says they're cheap for a reason, and that they are very likely to be inaccurate. I don't want to ask what he might recommend for a meter though.

I also read one little blurb that the Yamaha P series might not be best used for LFE applications. I don't know how much BS that is. Yeah, lots of Behringer users in that thread. I'd like to hear any particular recs for other brands too, perhaps Crown or something.

I am reconsidering the idea of sitting still to add a second satin F113, however. It's so much easier, and wouldn't cost anymore really. DTS10/amp/shipping is just about identical to a used satin F113 at this point. Of course, I'd be really, really, really giving it up at the subsonic. OTOH, if I ever happened to no longer have a large and dedicated space, the F113s can go just about anywhere. Hmrz.

I also checked out my riser situation a bit more closely. 2 seats would have their feet just about perfectly flush with the sides of a single DTS10. If I bought 2 subs, I could have a new riser for the row of 4, but I'd probably add something like plywood sheets on top, both so there is some extra space for feet, and to make up for the 3" (or slightly more) of lost height.

Am I lost? Probably.

 

[Warpdrv]

I see that a ton of owners do apply Audyssey, but that a great majority of those are applying other external EQ as well, in addition. It seems the consensus is to apply "manual" EQ first, and then run Audyssey.

It will always be best if you fist EQ the subs channel and get them flat before you try to approach getting Audyssey to have far more work/processing power involved to get things right. Remember that the JL's have an automated EQ, but it will only address 1 single freq. Thats not really EQing the entire range, if you have more then 1 problem area - your out of luck.

OTOH, I think* it was Ivan Beaver who was really showing his distaste for using a simple RS meter, if in conjunction with REW. He says they're cheap for a reason, and that they are very likely to be inaccurate. I don't want to ask what he might recommend for a meter though.

He is correct, a better calibrated mic hooked up to a laptop with REW would be the proper way to go, no question about it... this is simply the right method to take, not the cheapest or easiest way.. Tweaking is something us addicts do to get the last mile out of the system - for some its incredibly necessary, for others with less room interaction problems not so much.... It can be a big pain in the butt.. Here is a thread over at HTS that discusses using a Behring ECM8000 mic, which is basically the same mic that comes with a SMS-1.... http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/spl-meters-mics-calibration-sound-cards/10224-ecm8000-microphone-measuring-techniques-usage-discussion.html they are not that expensive... If you have co-located subs or both are on the front or rear wall, or within a very close proximity of each other, you could possibly get away with using an SMS-1

I also read one little blurb that the Yamaha P series might not be best used for LFE applications. I don't know how much BS that is. Yeah, lots of Behringer users in that thread. I'd like to hear any particular recs for other brands too, perhaps Crown or something.

I haven't seen the measurements of the Yamaha series amps - so I couldn't state their worthyness on bass, other amps have been measured and that is why they are popular to the DIY community.... Here is a link to some amp shootouts where it shows their measured performance and capabilities, which is why I bought the Crest 8002's for all my LMS's... http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAgQFjAA&url=http://www.binkster.net/AmpShootout_20-20k_results.xls&ei=gd3VS9ncDYP78AaFivUJ&usg=AFQjCNF_-MnxWfVuKcRgRKoZLPfRCqUMIg&sig2=GbcPwCZR86mXUzg5nGDQcA

I am reconsidering the idea of sitting still to add a second satin F113, however. It's so much easier, and wouldn't cost anymore really. DTS10/amp/shipping is just about identical to a used satin F113 at this point. Of course, I'd be really, really, really giving it up at the subsonic. OTOH, if I ever happened to no longer have a large and dedicated space, the F113s can go just about anywhere. Hmrz.

Am I lost? Probably.

Only you can make up your mind as to whether or not the DTS's will work out for you given the info here and at AVS. I know I couldn't incorporate them for my needs - would I want to yes, but I'm neck deep into my choice... which certainly wasn't cheap, the DTS's would have been far less cost for me.

I wish you luck, but I guess as they say - its crunch time to figure it out, if the DTS's are in your future

 

[jostenmeat]

I don't even remember the last time ARO was even engaged. Thanks a lot for the mic recommendation, and for sharing what you use for power. I am curious how much those Crest amps run for.

Yeah, it may be crunch time, but if I can't convince myself between now and the next few days, then I just won't do it. I understand that this is a tremendous value; I even read that they don't make money on this, but that we, the HT crazies, are given this great deal as to provide feedback. However, it's still a big purchase. Thanks Warp, you have been a big help.

 

[Warpdrv]

The Crest 8002's are older gen amps and are no longer avail, you have to get them used, but they are 4000w bridged at 4 ohm so more power then you would need for that particular application...

They work perfect for what I am doing - each LMS will see 4000w at 4 ohms.

 

[lsiberian]

I haven't seen the measurements of the Yamaha series amps

Wmax is the man for that question. I suspect the P7000 could keep up with the EP4000, but Wmax would know for sure.

I think the Behringer Feedback Destroyer would work fine and don't see the advantage of the DCX in this context.

I think the P7000 and the BFD can fill the bill. Do know that many SPL meters can work with REW. So if you already have one lying around.

 

[jostenmeat]

Wmax is the man for that question. I suspect the P7000 could keep up with the EP4000, but Wmax would know for sure.

I assume the same.

I think the Behringer Feedback Destroyer would work fine and don't see the advantage of the DCX in this context.

Is the BFD just a 12 band parametric? If it so, you think that's enough? All of a sudden, Audyssey seems amazing now with 100s(?) of filters and that's just at the consumer level.

I think the P7000 and the BFD can fill the bill.

The person stating that he "discovered" that the Yam are not the best suited for LFE was specfically mentioning the top of the line P7000. He did preface that by saying he was at first quite interested, as they have an excellent rep, but that he did indeed read/learn something or other about them for this app. Again, who knows.

Do know that many SPL meters can work with REW. So if you already have one lying around.

He knows. I know. I have an RS analog meter. The exact one that Ivan Beaver said was inaccurate to begin with, and that just because you see results on a computer screen does not make them true. If I was to go through all that HELL, I think I would buy a better meter mic.


edit: crap, I forgot to ask another question in the back of mind... Would you mind posting pic(s) of your riser/subs? I don't know how different the dimensions of your SPUDS are compared the DTS10, but it's something I'm curious about.

 

[Warpdrv]

Yeah, we can take his word on it, but I highly doubt he did the kind of thorough measurements to qualify for heavy bass usage - as well as line sag loads either....

 

[lsiberian]

I assume the same.



Is the BFD just a 12 band parametric? If it so, you think that's enough? All of a sudden, Audyssey seems amazing now with 100s(?) of filters and that's just at the consumer level.



The person stating that he "discovered" that the Yam are not the best suited for LFE was specfically mentioning the top of the line P7000. He did preface that by saying he was at first quite interested, as they have an excellent rep, but that he did indeed read/learn something or other about them for this app. Again, who knows.



He knows. I know. I have an RS analog meter. The exact one that Ivan Beaver said was inaccurate to begin with, and that just because you see results on a computer screen does not make them true. If I was to go through all that HELL, I think I would buy a better meter mic.


edit: crap, I forgot to ask another question in the back of mind... Would you mind posting pic(s) of your riser/subs? I don't know how different the dimensions of your SPUDS are compared the DTS10, but it's something I'm curious about.

Radio Shack Model 33-2050, model 42-3019, Model 33-4050, Model 33-2055 all have calibration files and work fine up to 3khz. If you have one of those models you're golden.

I'd go with the Behringer EP4000 and do the fan Mod in your place. It's way cheaper than the Yamaha.