Can we have a rational discussion about guns and why the typical arguments for gun control and its implementation won't work?

[j_garcia]

While I am still a gun supporter, I continue to grow concerned about people. We had 2 significant shootings in 2 days here. 11 killed in one incident, 7 killed in the other. The first one, we have yet to know the motive. The second, the guy had been harassed "teased" by his coworkers over a few years and he came back with a gun.

Baldwin has handled guns on movie sets for over 40 years. How can someone do that for so long and NOT think it would be a good idea to train with them? If it's just his arrogance and thinking that "I don't need to know how they work, I just want someone else to be responsible for any problems", he's an idiot. I can't imagine handling a strange weapon and NOT asking questions about its safe handling and about what I would need to know in order to be completely safe. The first thing I have always done when handed a firearm is turn and point it away from other people. He should have done the same.

Agreed. And the second thing you do is check for loaded before you handle it because you need to know the state regardless of the person who handled it prior. These are expected actions, written in stone.

 

[panteragstk]

Baldwin has handled guns on movie sets for over 40 years. How can someone do that for so long and NOT think it would be a good idea to train with them? If it's just his arrogance and thinking that "I don't need to know how they work, I just want someone else to be responsible for any problems", he's an idiot. I can't imagine handling a strange weapon and NOT asking questions about its safe handling and about what I would need to know in order to be completely safe. The first thing I have always done when handed a firearm is turn and point it away from other people. He should have done the same.

You ever met a mechanic that says "I've been doing this for 40 years." yet still doesn't know how to do their job? I have more than once.

Weird that it's always mechanics, but the point remains that people can have a lot of experience and still be an idiot.

I doubt this is the case here, but still. Blank rounds don't look anything like live ammo so it should have been VERY easy.

I still say he's not the only one that should be charged, but he still should be. Ignorance doesn't shield you from the law.

 

[j_garcia]

You ever met a mechanic that says "I've been doing this for 40 years." yet still doesn't know how to do their job? I have more than once.

Weird that it's always mechanics, but the point remains that people can have a lot of experience and still be an idiot.

I doubt this is the case here, but still. Blank rounds don't look anything like live ammo so it should have been VERY easy.

I still say he's not the only one that should be charged, but he still should be. Ignorance doesn't shield you from the law.

The armorer was also charged with 2 counts of involuntary manslaughter.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Baldwin has handled guns on movie sets for over 40 years. How can someone do that for so long and NOT think it would be a good idea to train with them? If it's just his arrogance and thinking that "I don't need to know how they work, I just want someone else to be responsible for any problems", he's an idiot. I can't imagine handling a strange weapon and NOT asking questions about its safe handling and about what I would need to know in order to be completely safe. The first thing I have always done when handed a firearm is turn and point it away from other people. He should have done the same.

I don't remember but the people out there doing this movie had live round firings out there nearby. I wonder if Baldvin also participated in live round firings, don't remember that detail in past reportings.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You ever met a mechanic that says "I've been doing this for 40 years." yet still doesn't know how to do their job? I have more than once.

Weird that it's always mechanics, but the point remains that people can have a lot of experience and still be an idiot.

I doubt this is the case here, but still. Blank rounds don't look anything like live ammo so it should have been VERY easy.

I still say he's not the only one that should be charged, but he still should be. Ignorance doesn't shield you from the law.

I had a master plumber tell me that insulation blankets on the exterior of a water heater will cause it to rust and a leaking tank. What?

 

[mono-bloc]

In Milwaukee 18 were shot, four killed over the same weekend

I really don't know the answer to your gun crime problem. While it's easy for an outsider to criticize, as I see it radical changes need to take place in an attempt to change your situation with regard to your gun crises. Of cause we all know this will never happen as the cry will ring out about constitutional changes, and what applies and what doesn't. As an outsider I think your biggest problem is the fact your vastly over governed, with small and large states having voices which have to be considered before any change can take place. Time goes by as the rates of change simply grind on, with the result that nothing ever changes. Clearly you have an out of control gun problem, with very little restrictions [ if any ] on who can own and use a gun, Licensing has little effect on who owns a gun, And all the talk in the world will not change anything. The way I see it gun shops need to be shut down, People need to hand over guns, in a gun buy back. We did it here and it works, But your problem is you have a much bigger population then we do. Together with your "Right to bear arms" legislation which will put a stopper into any attempted changes. Our big problem at the moment, is young people breaking into homes at night, and stealing car keys, then simply driving off, while the owner sleep. This is happening in Sydney and Melbourne where most of our population live How many people live near you? As to my location, I'm about half way between Sydney and Brisbane, and inland from the coast. This area in the hills was a vast timber area, Many years ago in the early 1900 Timber gathers arrived and saw mills started up, together with small settlements. Cut logs and milled timber was transported by Bullock teams down a rugged mountain road to the coast where it was loaded onto ships and sent to Sydney, This took the bullock teams close to a week to do the round trip. Of cause when the timber ran out, Mills shut down and people moved away, Leaving the small villages and settlements to a few people. My village of Ulong has about 30 houses , many are the original woodcutters homes, My little place started life like that, and has extensive renovation. The old logging track [road ] was sealed in the late 90's really keeping people out. The area is now trendy, bring new people to the area, But housing is at a premium. As most of the area is used for beef cattle, and the small villages will stay that way.

 

[TLS Guy]

I really don't know the answer to your gun crime problem. While it's easy for an outsider to criticize, as I see it radical changes need to take place in an attempt to change your situation with regard to your gun crises. Of cause we all know this will never happen as the cry will ring out about constitutional changes, and what applies and what doesn't. As an outsider I think your biggest problem is the fact your vastly over governed, with small and large states having voices which have to be considered before any change can take place. Time goes by as the rates of change simply grind on, with the result that nothing ever changes. Clearly you have an out of control gun problem, with very little restrictions [ if any ] on who can own and use a gun, Licensing has little effect on who owns a gun, And all the talk in the world will not change anything. The way I see it gun shops need to be shut down, People need to hand over guns, in a gun buy back. We did it here and it works, But your problem is you have a much bigger population then we do. Together with your "Right to bear arms" legislation which will put a stopper into any attempted changes. Our big problem at the moment, is young people breaking into homes at night, and stealing car keys, then simply driving off, while the owner sleep. This is happening in Sydney and Melbourne where most of our population live As to my location, I'm about half way between Sydney and Brisbane, and inland from the coast. This area in the hills was a vast timber area, Many years ago in the early 1900 Timber gathers arrived and saw mills started up, together with small settlements. Cut logs and milled timber was transported by Bullock teams down a rugged mountain road to the coast where it was loaded onto ships and sent to Sydney, This took the bullock teams close to a week to do the round trip. Of cause when the timber ran out, Mills shut down and people moved away, Leaving the small villages and settlements to a few people. My village of Ulong has about 30 houses , many are the original woodcutters homes, My little place started life like that, and has extensive renovation. The old logging track [road ] was sealed in the late 90's really keeping people out. The area is now trendy, bring new people to the area, But housing is at a premium. As most of the area is used for beef cattle, and the small villages will stay that way.

The only way forward I see to this frightful problem, is a new constitutional conference, and totally deep sixing the current one. It is out of date and now an abomination in many respects, especially the second amendment.

I became a citizen and swore allegiance to the constitution many years ago. I can say categorically that I would not do that now. I am no longer in favor of the US constitution and no longer support it.

More and more are starting to favor a new constitutional conference.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Or, have a better Supreme court that can see that stricter restrictions are allowed with the current amendment.
Be careful with a constitutional conference where the whole constitution is up for grabs to change for the worst.

 

[TLS Guy]

Or, have a better Supreme court that can see that stricter restrictions are allowed with the current amendment.
Be careful with a constitutional conference where the whole constitution is up for grabs to change for the worst.

It might be best not to have a written constitution at all and rely on tradition and precedent. Somethings are best left unsaid, rather then written in stone.

 

[highfigh]

While I am still a gun supporter, I continue to grow concerned about people. We had 2 significant shootings in 2 days here. 11 killed in one incident, 7 killed in the other. The first one, we have yet to know the motive. The second, the guy had been harassed "teased" by his coworkers over a few years and he came back with a gun.



Agreed. And the second thing you do is check for loaded before you handle it because you need to know the state regardless of the person who handled it prior. These are expected actions, written in stone.

My point all along has been that this is a problem with people and some have crapped all over me for that idea. If bad people weren't so GD willing to kill at the drop of a hat, we wouldn't have these problems.

WRT checking it to see if it's loaded- you mean #1 is not aiming at another person, right?

 

[highfigh]

You ever met a mechanic that says "I've been doing this for 40 years." yet still doesn't know how to do their job? I have more than once.

Weird that it's always mechanics, but the point remains that people can have a lot of experience and still be an idiot.

I doubt this is the case here, but still. Blank rounds don't look anything like live ammo so it should have been VERY easy.

I still say he's not the only one that should be charged, but he still should be. Ignorance doesn't shield you from the law.

I have, but this isn't Dodgeball, The Movie and they're not throwing wrenches at anyone.

Baldwin is an arrogant a$$ and IMO, always has been. If he didn't think he needed to be careful, it's his fault for being careless. I don't give a crap who is handling the gun, they need to be safe, above all else.

 

[highfigh]

The only way forward I see to this frightful problem, is a new constitutional conference, and totally deep sixing the current one. It is out of date and now an abomination in many respects, especially the second amendment.

I became a citizen and swore allegiance to the constitution many years ago. I can say categorically that I would not do that now. I am no longer in favor of the US constitution and no longer support it.

More and more are starting to favor a new constitutional conference.

So, you would scrap the whole Constitution? Care to describe what you would change, aside from 2A? What else would you change, Freedom of Speech, remove: freedom from illegal search & seizure, self- incrimination, due process, the right to speedy trial/ impartial jury/face one's accusers?

Here's the Bill of Rights-

Bill of Rights

www.law.cornell.edu

and 11-27th Amendments

Constitutional Amendments 11-27: The Bill of Rights

part 2 of the american bill of rights.

www.soundvision.com

And you're still blaming guns, rather than bad people? That's interesting, coming from someone who worked in medicine. I'm sure you dealt with many people who needed psychiatric/psychological help- whether someone uses a gun, baseball bat, knife, crowbar, car or arrow, it's still not happening unless there's intent.

No longer support it, eh? You took an oath. Geez- I would hate to see what happens if the medical field decided they no longer support the Hippocratic Oath and that's not even in place to limit government.

This isn't just about the Second Amendment- the only way to round up all of the guns would violate the 4th through the Tenth Amendments unless the courts were to allow broader search and siezure powers but that would likely be struck down on appeal. If this is something you would approve of, you're not alone and IMO, something has to be done to take guns from the hands of felons and anyone who isn't legally qualified to have or be near guns, in the interest of public safety.

In the meantime, politicians sit on their hands and talk about things that make people feel strongly about this, without understanding the possible consequences. If it was really a case of guns being the problem, don't you think the 100+ million legal gun owners would make it a much bigger problem (aside from the stupid ones who can't seem to make sure their guns can't be stolen)? At least one of the gunmen in California bought the gun legally, but I haven't seen info on the other one or the guy in Washington. I would bet that someone at a gun store had a hunch but let it go without saying something. I would almost guarantee that every one of the shooters in MKE, where 18 were shot and 4 dies were all illegally in possession of their guns. THAT's a people problem, but access is far too easy.

 

[highfigh]

It might be best not to have a written constitution at all and rely on tradition and precedent. Somethings are best left unsaid, rather then written in stone.

Are you insane? Do you NOT see how politicians act when they DO have oversight? Imagine how they would screw everyone if they were left un-checked!

So, it's OK for England and other countries to have a written Constitution, but the US should be a free for all? Any respect I had for you just took a huge hit.

 

[highfigh]

I really don't know the answer to your gun crime problem. While it's easy for an outsider to criticize, as I see it radical changes need to take place in an attempt to change your situation with regard to your gun crises. Of cause we all know this will never happen as the cry will ring out about constitutional changes, and what applies and what doesn't. As an outsider I think your biggest problem is the fact your vastly over governed, with small and large states having voices which have to be considered before any change can take place. Time goes by as the rates of change simply grind on, with the result that nothing ever changes. Clearly you have an out of control gun problem, with very little restrictions [ if any ] on who can own and use a gun, Licensing has little effect on who owns a gun, And all the talk in the world will not change anything. The way I see it gun shops need to be shut down, People need to hand over guns, in a gun buy back. We did it here and it works, But your problem is you have a much bigger population then we do. Together with your "Right to bear arms" legislation which will put a stopper into any attempted changes. Our big problem at the moment, is young people breaking into homes at night, and stealing car keys, then simply driving off, while the owner sleep. This is happening in Sydney and Melbourne where most of our population live As to my location, I'm about half way between Sydney and Brisbane, and inland from the coast. This area in the hills was a vast timber area, Many years ago in the early 1900 Timber gathers arrived and saw mills started up, together with small settlements. Cut logs and milled timber was transported by Bullock teams down a rugged mountain road to the coast where it was loaded onto ships and sent to Sydney, This took the bullock teams close to a week to do the round trip. Of cause when the timber ran out, Mills shut down and people moved away, Leaving the small villages and settlements to a few people. My village of Ulong has about 30 houses , many are the original woodcutters homes, My little place started life like that, and has extensive renovation. The old logging track [road ] was sealed in the late 90's really keeping people out. The area is now trendy, bring new people to the area, But housing is at a premium. As most of the area is used for beef cattle, and the small villages will stay that way.

Here (Milwaukee, Wisconsin), Kia and Hyundai cars are the favorite target and last year, more than 10K cars were stolen in the city and surrounding areas. Kia & Hyundai have done absolutely nothing about how easy their cars can be stolen, other than recommend the car owners use a steering wheel club to prevent theft. That device barely works, so here we sit, with more car thefts and crashes because they flee from the police, even if the siren isn't for them. OTOH, with the new surveillance cameras that automatically send a message to the Police Department if the plates don't match the car or is they're on a hot list, the cars are found much faster, now.

I'm totally against the way Democrats want to stuff people into apartment buildings, housing projects and other high density housing- it's a powder keg and it goes off on a regular basis. You like small towns and I do too, for the same reasons- everyone knows each other, everyone watches out for each other and people generally don't mess with others because that's a good way to get the whole town to hand them a good, well-deserved thumping.

Can he US send some of its criminals to Australia so they can play Australian Rules Football against your champions? It cold be a Pay Per View show every week and IMO, everybody would win. Well, except for the criminals.

 

[highfigh]

I don't remember but the people out there doing this movie had live round firings out there nearby. I wonder if Baldvin also participated in live round firings, don't remember that detail in past reportings.

I had heard that some were doing live fire- on a movie set, that's about the last thing that could be considered a 'good idea'. You must have heard of Murphy's Law, right (If something can go wrong, it will, at the worst possible time)? Ever hear of O'Toole's Corollary to Murphy's Law? "Murphy Was An Optimist".

 

[Trell]

And you're still blaming guns, rather than bad people?

Every teacher in USA should be armed and wearing a bulletproof vest. Who knows when a six year old will draw a hand gun in the class room?

 

[TLS Guy]

Are you insane? Do you NOT see how politicians act when they DO have oversight? Imagine how they would screw everyone if they were left un-checked!

So, it's OK for England and other countries to have a written Constitution, but the US should be a free for all? Any respect I had for you just took a huge hit.

The UK does not have a written constitution. It relies on tradition and precedence. Its legal system has been in constant evolution for a thousand years. I now see rigid written constitutions as a massive anchor chain and a barrier to correcting problems in a reactive and timely manner.

We will always have bad people and it is the gun that shoots the bullets. Unavailability of guns and ammo, means less and less loosers can avail themselves of guns and ammo. This carnage which is getting worse by the month now, has to be stopped and the people have to be disarmed, including you. This gun culture is poisoning American society to oblivion. It is the mill stone of the constitution preventing solutions that would reverse the situation. So yes, in America the constitution is the main driving force of this carnage. It needs to go.

 

[mono-bloc]

Kia and Hyundai cars are the favorite target and last year, more than 10K cars were stolen in the city

As far as your Constitutional problems, and reasons for change. I really think it's an impossible problem that can't or won't change, while you have moneyed people running the country. It seems that the rich and very rich get to govern the vote regardless of any qualifications they might have Just look at nut's like Trump, who will run again, and buy himself into power. I'm glad we don't have to suffer his stupidity I own a couple of Hyundai cars I have a Lantra GLS sports, and a E-Lantra GL 5 door auto, Why do I have two cars , simple, I blew the clutch a week before Christmas on the GLS. And promised myself I would never be trapped again without a car. My X got the Range Rover as a going away gift. I think I miss the RR more. But cars being cars there's always some fool wanting to take on the police in a race to see who's the better driver. Just check on the link below. What the news doesn't tell you is the driver of the Audi R8 was an active drug dealer, and a banned driver. And frankly he got what he deserved The only people that can afford such high performance cars are in the drug trade. https://7news.com.au/news/nsw/cousins-identified-as-victims-of-fiery-fatal-crash-on-sydney-m4-motorway-c-9550869

 

[highfigh]

Every teacher in USA should be armed and wearing a bulletproof vest. Who knows when a six year old will draw a hand gun in the class room?

Yeah......I guess you missed the info that the kid had made comments about burning the teacher and watching. People knew he could go off and family members went to the school with him, but not on that day. He seems to have planned this- not sure how the gun, by itself, caused it. Someone made this possible- we need to find out who. Also, they need to finish investigating the school staff because someone was told about the possibility that he might have a gun.

I haven't seen the video, but the teacher has been interviewed.

 

[highfigh]

The UK does not have a written constitution. It relies on tradition and precedence. Its legal system has been in constant evolution for a thousand years. I now see rigid written constitutions as a massive anchor chain and a barrier to correcting problems in a reactive and timely manner.

We will always have bad people and it is the gun that shoots the bullets. Unavailability of guns and ammo, means less and less loosers can avail themselves of guns and ammo. This carnage which is getting worse by the month now, has to be stopped and the people have to be disarmed, including you. This gun culture is poisoning American society to oblivion. It is the mill stone of the constitution preventing solutions that would reverse the situation. So yes, in America the constitution is the main driving force of this carnage. It needs to go.

Britain has the Magna Carta and it's largely the basis for civil law- it spells out a lot that has been taken by others to create their constitutions. It's not all unwritten and verbally passed down by little elves in dark places. What about the other countries that have a constitution- should they abandon theirs?

Just a reminder, the Bill of Rights doesn't specify what the people can do, it specifies what the government CAN'T do.

So, this isn't real?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kingdom

I disagree- making guns and ammo more difficult to acquire will only make the losers work harder to get them. Never underestimate a motivated criminal.

However, I do agree that the gun culture that places the freedom to kill is a large part of the problem but it's not only the NRA, it's goons who overreact to what they see as a threat to their lives, e.g., letting criminals go free after they commit violent crimes. Another problem that I see as a cause of this is people who can't pull the plug on bad relationships- they stay together, the anger grows, the beatings become more frequent and restraining orders don't help because the ones who are supposed to stay away don't and someone ends up dead before the Police can arrive. Check your local news and you'll see this.

People are raising kids who turn out to be turds and they can't find a way to do anything about it. The kids don't care about anyone, they don't even know they can get in trouble for stealing cars.

‘Kia Boyz’ unaware of serious penalties that can result from joyriding

On May 31, the Milwaukee Youtuber Tommy Gerszewski, also known as “Tommy G.”, posted a sixteen-minute documentary on the Kia Boys which quickly garnered the attention of local and national media.

wislawjournal.com

We have always had bad people, but not in the numbers that are causing problems now.

And you haven't mentioned mental health as one of the causes of these shootings- why not?