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Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Moving on from Scotland, I have a few more questions.

1. The newly elected Mayor of London seems to want a referendum about London splitting off. Articles in the press have voiced concerns that London now would no longer be the de facto financial capital with many financial houses considering moves to other countries and cities thereby taking many jobs with them not to mention the loss of prestige.. Thoughts?

2. Now there's a petition well in excess of the 100,000 needed to demand another vote under somewhat different conditions. What's the likelihood of Parliament giving the go ahead?

3. As it stands, you've got Brits living and working in other countries and sundry Europeans doing the same in the UK. Will things just continue as they have been?

I probably have others.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Moving on from Scotland, I have a few more questions.

1. The newly elected Mayor of London seems to want a referendum about London splitting off. Articles in the press have voiced concerns that London now would no longer be the de facto financial capital with many financial houses considering moves to other countries and cities thereby taking many jobs with them not to mention the loss of prestige.. Thoughts?

2. Now there's a petition well in excess of the 100,000 needed to demand another vote under somewhat different conditions. What's the likelihood of Parliament giving the go ahead?

3. As it stands, you've got Brits living and working in other countries and sundry Europeans doing the same in the UK. Will things just continue as they have been?

I probably have others.
Answer to 1 is that London elected a chap by the name of Sadiq Kahn. There are many longing for London to be Londonistan. London will not go independent, the pitch forks from the Shires would turn up long before that!

Answer to 2. No there will not be another vote. The EU has a history of this and in the UK it will be resisted to the extreme.

The answer to 3 is unknown, and depends on the terms after invoking article 50. It seems the EU want this separation to take place quickly, in which case the terms will likely be favorable. A lot will depend on who the next PM is. The conservative party and now the labor party are split on Europe. The conservative party have had this deep fault line for years. It remains to be seen whether the conservatives elect a leader from leave like Boris Johnson or Michael Grove. On the other hand they might put up someone from the remain campaign like the Home Secretary, Theresa May. She would be the likely choice form that camp, as she had kept her powder dry so to speak.

I really hope it is Boris Johnson. He would be a good choice not only for the UK and Europe but also the world.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
The newly elected mayor had strong support from some of his followers.

 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Yes, that is what I was referring to.

Here is a link showing the percentage of foreign born in the London Burroughs. The great Londoners are being forced out.
Had the mayoral election gone the other way and we saw similar signs in support, the condemnation would have been world wide. And not just from the media but world leaders and their supporting cast would have informed GB about the religion of peace, tolerance, and so forth. Concerted attempts to paint those Londoners as bigots, fascist reactionaries. Students would have marched. John Oliver, Zuckerberg, and CAIR would have weighed in.

 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
This is a great day for not only the UK, but especially those is parts of Europe, like South Med, that are shackled to the greatest job destroyer in history, namely the EU.

This is an organization with minimal electoral oversight, enacting laws and regulations throughout the EU, and in numerous cases flouting the popular will.

55% of UK law has now been enacted by people they did not elect and can not rmove at the ballot box.

Hopefully this resentment will spread throughout Europe faster than a California wild fire.

Once again history will judge Great Britain once again to have come to the rescue of continental Europe.
Amazing similarities between Brexit and the American Revolution but this didn't come with a war. Hopefully.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
It tickles me how our media is covering people who say, "I voted to leave, but didn't think it would actually happen". And that 2 million have signed a petition to hold another vote.

So what am I to take from this?
The Brits who voted to leave are imbeciles and don't understand what voting means?
If a vote doesn't go your way, you should vote again, (and again?), until it does?
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
It tickles me how our media is covering people who say, "I voted to leave, but didn't think it would actually happen". And that 2 million have signed a petition to hold another vote.

So what am I to take from this?
The Brits who voted to leave are imbeciles and don't understand what voting means?
If a vote doesn't go your way, you should vote again, (and again?), until it does?
it's comforting to see that crybaby liberals aren't unique to the US. ...or is it?
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
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Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
How did the US answer those questions when it declared and won its independence from England? How did the French when it overthrough its monarchy? Or the people who decide on a divorce? Or your kids who one day (hopefully) move out?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It tickles me how our media is covering people who say, "I voted to leave, but didn't think it would actually happen". And that 2 million have signed a petition to hold another vote.

So what am I to take from this?
The Brits who voted to leave are imbeciles and don't understand what voting means?
If a vote doesn't go your way, you should vote again, (and again?), until it does?
Q- "Why do you bang your head against the wall?"
A- "Because it feels so good when I stop".

A partial quote from 'Men In Black', in response to Will Smith's character saying that people are smart- "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat....".

Reactive? Definitely. Selfish and short-sighted? Absolutely. Ignorant? Yup.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
How did the US answer those questions when it declared and won its independence from England? How did the French when it overthrough its monarchy? Or the people who decide on a divorce? Or your kids who one day (hopefully) move out?
Which questions, specifically? The French revolted for some of the same reasons the Americans did and they had the benefit of seeing that it could happen, although they went to different extremes, since they were in the same place (not that the American Revolution was fought only on American soil and in American waters). Sometimes, the rewards are worth the risks, sometimes not. I don't see why GB can't remain an ally and a partner to all of the ones before Brexit- it's not a declaration of war, it's them standing up and saying they don't want someone telling them what to do and paying for membership in a club that wants one governing body. A global government would be a disaster for human rights and if people think income inequality are bad now, they need to think about a worst case scenario. Oh, sure- they'll act like they care and generate handouts, but who really wants to live in a welfare state, whether as a private person, a business or as a country?

They bailed out Greece, who then fell behind and needed more money and asked for (and received) debt relief. How long will the EU allow that to continue?

I guess this is why one of my customers wanted to hold off remodeling part of his house- in early Winter '15, his wife said he was nervous about the uncertainty in the upcoming months.
 
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Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Which questions, specifically? The French revolted for some of the same reasons the Americans did and they had the benefit of seeing that it could happen, although they went to different extremes, since they were in the same place (not that the American Revolution was fought only on American soil and in American waters). Sometimes, the rewards are worth the risks, sometimes not. I don't see why GB can't remain an ally and a partner to all of the ones before Brexit- it's not a declaration of war, it's them standing up and saying they don't want someone telling them what to do and paying for membership in a club that wants one governing body. A global government would be a disaster for human rights and if people think income inequality are bad now, they need to think about a worst case scenario. Oh, sure- they'll act like they care and generate handouts, but who really wants to live in a welfare state, whether as a private person, a business or as a country?

They bailed out Greece, who then fell behind and needed more money and asked for (and received) debt relief. How long will the EU allow that to continue?

I guess this is why one of my customers wanted to hold off remodeling part of his house- in early Winter '15, his wife said he was nervous about the uncertainty in the upcoming months.
The questions I referred to were the ones Ponzio had brought up. I saw them more in a general sense that spoke to the unknowns as a result of GB voting to leave. If the EU had stuck to the core of unfettered trade life I guess would be good. But as it stands, this is such a large beaurocracy layered on top of existing national beaurocracies and to that we can add the UN, how the heck does anything get done.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The questions I referred to were the ones Ponzio had brought up. I saw them more in a general sense that spoke to the unknowns as a result of GB voting to leave. If the EU had stuck to the core of unfettered trade life I guess would be good. But as it stands, this is such a large beaurocracy layered on top of existing national beaurocracies and to that we can add the UN, how the heck does anything get done.
I guess they'll have to assemble a focus group, so they can come up with a good list of talking points and put their finger on the pulse of the Union before defining the issues, setting up future discussions to create a project scope, propose a list of solutions, decide how best to implement them and make a timeline for the whole project. But first, they'll probably take a vacation. Maybe a general strike would be a good start (Greece & France).
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Germany & France are happy as clams as Putin laughs to himself. The UK banking sector just got left out in the cold.
The questions I referred to were the ones Ponzio had brought up…
I read and thought (wondered is a better word) about this a lot since the Brexit vote. Here's a summary:

Because I was born in 1948 & raised during the Cold War (1945-1990) I tend to see things as long-term balance of power questions. In Europe after WWII, the power struggle became a 45-year stalemate between the USA, Canada, the UK, and the rest of NATO vs. the Soviet Union and all the countries it occupied in Eastern Europe. If you viewed it, as most in the USA did, it was a frustrating struggle to prevent the Russian Bear from devouring Europe. If you viewed it as the UK & France did, they cared less what the Russians did as long as Germany was divided and occupied.

The final result of the Cold War in Europe ended with the realization that the stalemate allowed Europe to slowly recover from the earlier 20th century wars, and equally important, it prevented a devastating nuclear war between East and West. And it allowed the reunification of Germany.

Once the Soviet Union failed, it's occupation of the rest of the Eastern European countries rapidly collapsed. The big question became, now who will be 'in charge' of Europe? In retrospect, I think that's when the European Union began to fail. At the time, 1990, no one worried because everyone expected it would take at least 10-15 years for a reunified Germany to help the former East Germany recover economically from it's long abuse. I have previously commented that Germany should be feared if it becomes the economic dominant country in Europe. I admit that is unfair. Germany, in the last 10-20 years, has shown no reason why it should be feared. I will probably never forget or forgive Germany for what it did in the past, but, so far this century, it hasn't threatened peace in Europe.

Back to my question. Who will be in charge in Europe, and who is a threat to the peace in Europe? The real problem is that no country in the EU has stepped up.

During the decade of the 1990's there was a prolonged & ugly civil war in the former Yugoslavia, as the deep-freeze imposed by the Cold War ended. Bloody feuds & grudges, as old as 500 years, re-emerged as various nation-states of Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Macedonia separated and fought each other. It was truly bloody & ugly. Serbia (historically aligned with Russia) was the aggressor and was on the road to becoming an armed danger to the rest of Europe. No one from NATO or the EU did a thing to stop this. Only later in the 1990s did the US belatedly and unwillingly intervene. And this is my major point in the long-winded post.

Germany seems to focus on its economic development – and equally important – seems to run away from political or military confrontations. So has the rest of the EU and NATO. This is where Russia and Vladimir Putin has stepped into an apparent power vacuum. Russia under Putin is seeking to expand it's power, witness what happened in Crimea, Urkraine, and now Syria. (Syria is not in Europe or the EU, but its refugees are becoming an unwanted burden for EU countries. Russia is deliberately contributing to that problem.)

So far, I think Putin is bluffing, successfully. I don't believe Russia has the economic power, or the stomach, to continue this if it's bluff is called. Unfortunately, no country in Europe is willing to step up. Now that the UK is quitting the EU, I take it as a sign of their unwillingness to defend the rest of Europe.
 
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