Bought new Onkyo TX-NR6050, hope I won't regret

[Mike Up]

T-D (Theater Dimensional) must have the virtualizer on as well according to manual.

One thing I stumbled on that was confusing is that DD+ mode said DD+ 5.1 to DD+ 7.1 in the pop up info window. I would had thought it would had said DD+ 5.1 to DD+ 5.1 as Dolby Audio surround said DD+ 5.1 to Dolby Audio Surround 7.1. So are they both converting to 7.1?? I wouldnt think so but the on screen pop up info says it is.

Maybe info pop up is just saying its a 7.1 system and not saying it's converting? If so, then what tells you that it is converting to 7.1?

Im confused now.

Yep, I have 7.1 Surround back Channel sound coming out with DD+ 5.1 input and Direct DD+ 5.1 input, along with Dolby Surround DD+ 5.1 input.

Output says DD+ 7.1

Switching my speaker configuration to 5.1 or 5.1.2 leaves no sound coming out of surround back channels and info screen says output DD+ 5.1.

Dont know why I have surround back channel sound 7.1 when manual says I should only have 5.1 sound with an input of DD+ 5.1.

Obviously the menu says its outputting DD+ 7.1 with a DD+ 5.1 input so its doing what it says.

Wonder why?

No difference between between DD+ listening mode or Dolby surround listening unless you turn speaker virtualizer on where DD+ doesnt use it and Dolby Surround does use it.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yep, I have 7.1 Surround back Channel sound coming out with DD+ 5.1 input and Direct DD+ 5.1 input, along with Dolby Surround DD+ 5.1 input.

Output says DD+ 7.1

Switching my speaker configuration to 5.1 or 5.1.2 leaves no sound coming out of surround back channels and info screen says output DD+ 5.1.

Dont know why I have surround back channel sound 7.1 when manual says I should only have 5.1 sound with an input of DD+ 5.1.

Obviously the menu says its outputting DD+ 7.1 with a DD+ 5.1 input so its doing what it says.

Wonder why?

No difference between between DD+ listening mode or Dolby surround listening unless you turn speaker virtualizer on where DD+ doesnt use it and Dolby Surround does use it.

Probably just an automatic upmix if you have the speakers enabled. I remember DTS 5.1 codecs would do this on my avrs years ago (but Dolby would stay at 5.1). In your listening modes do you have the option of limiting it to the 5.1 if that's what you prefer? Does the manual explain?

 

[Mike Up]

Probably just an automatic upmix if you have the speakers enabled. I remember DTS 5.1 codecs would do this on my avrs years ago (but Dolby would stay at 5.1). In your listening modes do you have the option of limiting it to the 5.1 if that's what you prefer? Does the manual explain?

I think you're right. Apparently Yamaha receivers do an auto up mix to 7.1 as well. I read it in this other forum thread.

With an input signal of DD 5.1 from a Bluray, the Onkyo TX-NR6050 appears to only up mix to 7.1 automatically. Selecting a 5.1.2 speaker system keeps Direct and DD outputting at 5.1 while going to Dolby Surround Outputs to 5.1.2 .

With a 7.1 speaker system, DD/DD+ won't virtualize any speaker but going to Dolby Surround virtualizes the top speakers. Turn Virtualizer to off and DD/DD+ listening mode with a 7.1 speakers system seams to offer the same 7.1 output sound as Dolby Surround listening mode.

I really wish the manual made this more clearer. I guess it makes these surround modes less complicated at the expense of being less functional.

The only way to limit actual speaker outputs to 5.1 in DD/DD+ are to change the speaker selection to either 5.1 or 5.1.2 .

What receiver's did this 7.1 up mix automatically for you on DTS 5.1?

Thanks

 

[lovinthehd]

I think you're right. Apparently Yamaha receivers do an auto up mix to 7.1 as well. I read it in this other forum thread.

With an input signal of DD 5.1 from a Bluray, the Onkyo TX-NR6050 appears to only up mix to 7.1 automatically. Selecting a 5.1.2 speaker system keeps Direct and DD outputting at 5.1 while going to Dolby Surround Outputs to 5.1.2 .

With a 7.1 speaker system, DD/DD+ won't virtualize any speaker but going to Dolby Surround virtualizes the top speakers. Turn Virtualizer to off and DD/DD+ listening mode with a 7.1 speakers system seams to offer the same 7.1 output sound as Dolby Surround listening mode.

I really wish the manual made this more clearer. I guess it makes these surround modes less complicated at the expense of being less functional.

The only way to limit actual speaker outputs to 5.1 in DD/DD+ are to change the speaker selection to either 5.1 or 5.1.2 .

What receiver's did this 7.1 up mix automatically for you on DTS 5.1?

Thanks

Well my Denon 4520 I'm using at the moment, I have to manually choose a mode to go from basic 5.1 DD+ to go to 7.1 (EX or PLIIx), but that's what I'm watching. Pretty sure with DTS or DTS HD-MA 5.1 it will automatically go to 7.1 but if/when I get a chance I'll test (and by switching to direct mode you can limit it of course)....I'm thinking my Denon in the workshop will do it too but it's been a long time since I set that up.....maybe the Onkyo in my bedroom (but that one's only 5.1 so can't test).

ps Does the auto upmix bother you particularly?

 

[Trebdp83]

You may not have noticed that, with some dolby signals other than 7.1 channel signals played over a 7.1 configuration, sounds will not be produced from the surround channels and only from surround back channels if using a “Straight” dolby decode. To get sound from the surround channels, switching to the Dolby Surround mode is necessary. Onkyo actually warns as much in the manual.

DTS has its own peculiarities when using a 7.1 configuration on the Onkyo and I do miss the Denons of the past that offered the Matrix and Non Matrix(Same as Surround) settings for the surround back speakers. I used Non Matrix and just duplicated the surround info on 5.1 tracks. I liked it when listening to SACD or DVD-AUDIO discs on my old 7.1 setup.

I have been pleased with the height virtualization of Dolby Atmos tracks and use DTS Virtual:X upmixing for just about everything else when watching TV or Movies. I don’t usually upmix music. I don’t feel the need for more speakers and thought I would at some point. The new Dolby and DTS sound modes do as good a job of contracting some signals into 5.1 configurations as they do expanding some into 7.1 or 5.1.2 configurations.

 

[Mike Up]

You may not have noticed that, with some dolby signals other than 7.1 channel signals played over a 7.1 configuration, sounds will not be produced from the surround channels and only from surround back channels if using a “Straight” dolby decode. To get sound from the surround channels, switching to the Dolby Surround mode is necessary. Onkyo actually warns as much in the manual.

No, both surround and surround back speakers operate. I turned the front left and right, center, and surround left and right down to -12db and the surround backs up to +12db to hear if they were playing. I then also turned the surround left and right up to +12db and they were playing as well. Then I compared to see if the surround and surround back channels were playing the same information. No the surround channels and the surround back channels definitely had different sounds playing so it was a true 7.1 output.

DTS has its own peculiarities when using a 7.1 configuration on the Onkyo and I do miss the Denons of the past that offered the Matrix and Non Matrix(Same as Surround) settings for the surround back speakers. I used Non Matrix and just duplicated the surround info on 5.1 tracks. I liked it when listening to SACD or DVD-AUDIO discs on my old 7.1 setup.

Yep, on my Denon AVR-2312ci I use DPL IIx Cinema mode for the surround back speaker option.

I have been pleased with the height virtualization of Dolby Atmos tracks and use DTS Virtual:X upmixing for just about everything else when watching TV or Movies. I don’t usually upmix music. I don’t feel the need for more speakers and thought I would at some point. The new Dolby and DTS sound modes do as good a job of contracting some signals into 5.1 configurations as they do expanding some into 7.1 or 5.1.2 configurations.

I'm still listening to virtualizer to make a choice to leave it on or not.

Thanks for the help

 

[Mike Up]

Well my Denon 4520 I'm using at the moment, I have to manually choose a mode to go from basic 5.1 DD+ to go to 7.1 (EX or PLIIx), but that's what I'm watching. Pretty sure with DTS or DTS HD-MA 5.1 it will automatically go to 7.1 but if/when I get a chance I'll test (and by switching to direct mode you can limit it of course)....I'm thinking my Denon in the workshop will do it too but it's been a long time since I set that up.....maybe the Onkyo in my bedroom (but that one's only 5.1 so can't test).

ps Does the auto upmix bother you particularly?

Yep your Denon AVR-4520 was only a year newer than my AVR-2312ci. Your AVR-4520 was in the same line up as the AVR-2313ci.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yep your Denon AVR-4520 was only a year newer than my AVR-2312ci. Your AVR-4520 was in the same line up as the AVR-2313ci.

Denon 3808 in the workshop, been a while since I had my Onkyo (an older one, with Audyssey) in 7ch speaker setup....not sure about it, I know my old Pioneer didn't do it.

 

[Trebdp83]

The surrounds will play if in Dolby Surround mode while playing a 5.1channel signal or if the input signal is a 7.1 channel signal using a 7.1 speaker configuration. But, in a case involving a Dolby Digital signal and a sound mode selection of just DD and not Dolby Surround using a 7.1 configuration , the surround speakers may not produce sound. I've experienced it and it is an issue going back years with Onkyo models.

The quirks of the Dolby and DTS up mixers can be eliminated simply by reconfiguring a 7.1 setup to a 5.1.2 setup if a room and speakers can accommodate switch. With the new up mixers, more is gained in a 5.1.2 setup than is lost when changing from a 7.1 setup. But, it simply isn't an option for one reason or another in many rooms. If one has elevated surround and surround back speakers that were placed many years ago for a 7.1 setup, they would need to be lowered to accommodate a set of height speakers and even need to be lowered to optimize the effects of height virtualization.

I didn't like applying Dolby PLIIx to anything on my older Denon's and not just because it changed the front panel display and added + DPLIIx to the end of everything when playing 5.1 signals. The NON MTRX mode just duplicated the surround info into the surround back speakers and did not change the display on the front panel because there was no additional processing being applied to the signal. This feature was removed and gone by the time the 2312 rolled around.

 

[Mike Up]

The surrounds will play if in Dolby Surround mode while playing a 5.1channel signal or if the input signal is a 7.1 channel signal using a 7.1 speaker configuration. But, in a case involving a Dolby Digital signal and a sound mode selection of just DD and not Dolby Surround using a 7.1 configuration , the surround speakers may not produce sound. I've experienced it and it is an issue going back years with Onkyo models.

The quirks of the Dolby and DTS up mixers can be eliminated simply by reconfiguring a 7.1 setup to a 5.1.2 setup if a room and speakers can accommodate switch. With the new up mixers, more is gained in a 5.1.2 setup than is lost when changing from a 7.1 setup. But, it simply isn't an option for one reason or another in many rooms. If one has elevated surround and surround back speakers that were placed many years ago for a 7.1 setup, they would need to be lowered to accommodate a set of height speakers and even need to be lowered to optimize the effects of height virtualization.

I didn't like applying Dolby PLIIx to anything on my older Denon's and not just because it changed the front panel display and added + DPLIIx to the end of everything when playing 5.1 signals. The NON MTRX mode just duplicated the surround info into the surround back speakers and did not change the display on the front panel because there was no additional processing being applied to

The surrounds will play if in Dolby Surround mode while playing a 5.1channel signal or if the input signal is a 7.1 channel signal using a 7.1 speaker configuration. But, in a case involving a Dolby Digital signal and a sound mode selection of just DD and not Dolby Surround using a 7.1 configuration , the surround speakers may not produce sound. I've experienced it and it is an issue going back years with Onkyo models.

The quirks of the Dolby and DTS up mixers can be eliminated simply by reconfiguring a 7.1 setup to a 5.1.2 setup if a room and speakers can accommodate switch. With the new up mixers, more is gained in a 5.1.2 setup than is lost when changing from a 7.1 setup. But, it simply isn't an option for one reason or another in many rooms. If one has elevated surround and surround back speakers that were placed many years ago for a 7.1 setup, they would need to be lowered to accommodate a set of height speakers and even need to be lowered to optimize the effects of height virtualization.

I didn't like applying Dolby PLIIx to anything on my older Denon's and not just because it changed the front panel display and added + DPLIIx to the end of everything when playing 5.1 signals. The NON MTRX mode just duplicated the surround info into the surround back speakers and did not change the display on the front panel because there was no additional processing being applied to the signal. This feature was removed and gone by the time the 2312 rolled around.
View attachment 58256
View attachment 58257

Yep very similar to my Denon AVR-2312ci

 

[Mike Up]

SOLVED!

Found out what going on with my receiver putting out 7.1 from a 5.1 input source on DD/DD+ and Direct.

The darn manual is wrong and likely reprinted off of the TX-NR696.

The manuals for the TX-NR5100 and TX-NR7100 have changed. Now instead of a footnote saying that no sound will come out of the surround back channels, it's been changed to be outputting the surround channel information out the surround back channels!!

Don't know why Onkyo got the 5100 and 7100 manuals correct but not the 6100/6050 manuals!

I have to say I have a bug or mild flu so I honestly thought I heard a difference from the surround channel to the surround back channels but obviously I shouldn't have as they are the same.

If you wanted a processed surround back channel, you have to use Dolby Surround.

I did call Onkyo on this and they were as stumped as me and are going to call me back after researching it.

Amazing what a correct manual can do!

Don't know if this was a firmware revision where Onkyo updated the 5100 and 7100 manuals but forgot about the 6100 and 6050 manuals.

I am a bit relieved in finding this as I like things to make sense.

For sure much simpler for the average joe to use, but offering less functionality for those of us that know how to use stuff.

Now Onkyo needs to update their 6100 and 6050 manuals! Or put out a READ ME, file for the firmware revisions.

Thanks everyone

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hey Treb!
What Onkyo did you have? I had an 808, but don’t ever remember the NON MTRX etc. it was a great AVR though.

 

[Mike Up]

Hey Treb!
What Onkyo did you have? I had an 808, but don’t ever remember the NON MTRX etc. it was a great AVR though.

I thought he was refering to the Denon receiver. My old avr-3803 had non- matrix mode or which was surround channel info in surround back channel, but newer AVR-2312ci done away with that option.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah thought he was referring to his older Denons. Looked at my 3808 manual, it does appear to have this matrix/non-matrix setting but don't remember it from delving into the setup menu....when it gets less smoky out there I'll check that out. I do remember I can set the rear surrounds a coupla different ways on that model more than my newer one.....

 

[Trebdp83]

It’s just another in the list of things wrong with that silly manual. Even the others need to be changed to add the word SAME when referring to the sound produced by the surround back speakers in those sound modes with those dolby signals. It’s doing automatically, though maybe not fully, what could be done with the older Denons with a setting change. The first of the two pics in my last post were from the Denon XX08/XX8 models and the second from the Denon 2312CI. Don’t know why Denon didn’t just leave it alone.

Still annoyed by surround info going out from only the surround back speakers in some cases using a 7.1 configuration in the 6050. But, I don’t use it but for experimentation sometimes. Heck, the 7100 pulls the same thing apparently with some dolby signals AND with IMAX Enhanced DTS signals. I‘m over the changing behaviors based on changing modes.

It shouldn’t be so difficult to figure out exactly what is going on in new receivers when considering how things have worked in the past. Onkyo dropped the ball on the 6050 manual. Yamaha did as much with the RX-V6A upon its release but then, after several firmware updates, put out a revised manual to reflect the new features and functionality. Onkyo needs to rewrite the 6050 manual so poor souls don’t have to go looking for answers online.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah thought he was referring to his older Denons. Looked at my 3808 manual, it does appear to have this matrix/non-matrix setting but don't remember it from delving into the setup menu....when it gets less smoky out there I'll check that out. I do remember I can set the rear surrounds a coupla different ways on that model more than my newer one.....

I thought he was refering to the Denon receiver. My old avr-3803 had non- matrix mode or which was surround channel info in surround back channel, but newer AVR-2312ci done away with that option.

Yeah I’m dumm today… was actually dozing off while going through this thread lol…

 

[Mike Up]

in a case involving a Dolby Digital signal and a sound mode selection of just DD and not Dolby Surround using a 7.1 configuration , the surround speakers may not produce sound. I've experienced it and it is an issue going back years with Onkyo models.

I'll have to check that as I didn't experience it at all, both surrounds and surround backs were playing.

The quirks of the Dolby and DTS up mixers can be eliminated simply by reconfiguring a 7.1 setup to a 5.1.2 setup if a room and speakers can accommodate switch. With the new up mixers, more is gained in a 5.1.2 setup than is lost when changing from a 7.1 setup. But, it simply isn't an option for one reason or another in many rooms. If one has elevated surround and surround back speakers that were placed many years ago for a 7.1 setup, they would need to be lowered to accommodate a set of height speakers and even need to be lowered to optimize the effects of height virtualization.

I've wondered about going to a 5.1.2 system but I'm not sure if the results will be more positive in my room.

As I started reading these new receiver manuals, I wondered why they were recommending the surround and surround back speakers to be installed in the WRONG position. They shouldn't be installed level with the listeners ears but at 3' above the listeners ears yet they NOW were be recommended lower. My speakers are 3' above listeners ears as what a "TRUE" 7.1 system is suppose to be setup as.

I can only think this is only to accommodate the "ATMOS" 7.1.4 systems.

Most of my DVDs and Bluray discs are Dolby DIgital 5.1 or DTS- HD Master Audio 5.1 or 7.1 discs. Only my UHD Blurays and Digital UHD movies are in Atmos and most are still DD+ 5.1!

I never realized Atmos required different speaker positions of the tried and true 5.1/7.1 systems.

I didn't like applying Dolby PLIIx to anything on my older Denon's and not just because it changed the front panel display and added + DPLIIx to the end of everything when playing 5.1 signals. The NON MTRX mode just duplicated the surround info into the surround back speakers and did not change the display on the front panel because there was no additional processing being applied to the signal. This feature was removed and gone by the time the 2312 rolled around.

With DD+ 5.1 soundtracks, I always used DD Plus + DPL IIx Cinema as I liked the enhanced effects from the stereo pair of surround back channels. It was the closest to a discrete 7.1 soundtrack as possible.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I'll have to check that as I didn't experience it at all, both surrounds and surround backs were playing.



I've wondered about going to a 5.1.2 system but I'm not sure if the results will be more positive in my room.

As I started reading these new receiver manuals, I wondered why they were recommending the surround and surround back speakers to be installed in the WRONG position. They shouldn't be installed level with the listeners ears but at 3' above the listeners ears yet they NOW were be recommended lower. My speakers are 3' above listeners ears as what a "TRUE" 7.1 system is suppose to be setup as.

View attachment 58280

I can only think this is only to accommodate the "ATMOS" 7.1.4 systems.

Most of my DVDs and Bluray discs are Dolby DIgital 5.1 or DTS- HD Master Audio 5.1 or 7.1 discs. Only my UHD Blurays and Digital UHD movies are in Atmos and most are still DD+ 5.1!

I never realized Atmos required different speaker positions of the tried and true 5.1/7.1 systems.



With DD+ 5.1 soundtracks, I always used DD Plus + DPL IIx Cinema as I liked the enhanced effects from the stereo pair of surround back channels. It was the closest to a discrete 7.1 soundtrack as possible.

Yes. The lower side/rear positions are to accommodate Atmos. The reason is that you need to have vertical separation between the “bed layer” and height layer. That serves a couple purposes, helping distinguish between the two layers and also allowing good phantom imaging between the two layers for placing sounds into the room. I will try to find my links to some of the Dolby guides for Atmos.

 

[Mike Up]

Yes. The lower side/rear positions are to accommodate Atmos. The reason is that you need to have vertical separation between the “bed layer” and height layer. That serves a couple purposes, helping distinguish between the two layers and also allowing good phantom imaging between the two layers for placing sounds into the room. I will try to find my links to some of the Dolby guides for Atmos.

Makes a lot of sense. Guess with my surround speakers placed at the original Dolby recommended 3' above listener, the virtualizer probably wouldn't work right.


I never liked having the surround speakers at listeners ear height because it would be blaring into the far most seated listener's ears while the listeners seating more center wouldn't hear it as well. The speakers above the listeners heads would sound better for all listeners. Not sure about this 5.1.2 and above formats. Thinking I'll stay with the Tried and True 7.1 format.

I'm guessing that the high end Dipole surround speakers wouldn't even work with Atmos.

 

[Mike Up]

Did some Denon AVR-X2800h and Yamaha RX-V6a snooping and found that these receivers don't even offer a 5.1.2 format with rear height speakers, like the Onkyo TX-NR6050 and TX-NR6100 offer. Yamaha only offers front height, front dolby enhanced or top front speaker configurations for 5.1.2 . Denon only offer Front height, Top Front, Front dolby enhanced, Top Middle or surround dolby enhanced speakers. This is a big deal IMO.

Also as was said, Yamaha offers automatic 7.1 speaker output with straight DD/DD+ 5.1 modes. I didn't see anything saying how the surround back speaker output was selected, cloned surround channel info or upmixed. Denon does not offer a 7.1 output and offers 5.1 speaker output with straight DD/DD+ modes. To get 7.1 speaker output with a DD/DD+ 5.1 format, you must select the Dolby Surround Mode to upmix for the Surround Back Speakers output.

After reading through the Yamaha RX-V6a receiver manual, I'd go nuts setting up that receiver. They don't use traditional settings like their older receiver and newer receivers from other makers. It's just very confusing! I had to keep re-reading the manual to finally understand what they were getting at. Definitely not good for the average joe.

Denon and Yamaha still offer features that Onkyo doesn't but I never use those features anyhow. Onkyo by far, is the receiver for the average joe with it's much simpler interface, settings, and menus.