Axiom Audio EP500 VS SVS PB12-Plus/2

[brian32672]

This is probably a mistake for me pointing this out.
And more than likely will bite me in the %ss.

Ilkka is a bright guy with a personality defect.

Is it me??? Or did not Clint just say, no personal attacks.

New forum. New start. -- We will ban you for personal attacks. Simple. Attack the methods. Attack the facts. Attack the data. There is no need to attack the person.

I have seen others, (and not trying to just single you out RMK), like Craig's comment on knocking Illka's teeth out. (totally un-called for, from anyone with a somewhat mature level of thinking)
(I mean, if I said hey - I think that's BS - clearly my thinking is you are lying) So when I say something that you (meaning anyone) are writing BS, you will have a come-back with I will knock your teeth out === uncalled for)
(Hah, sorry, this has been done. I fell from a 5 story building, and already knocked all my front teeth out)

By chance I happen to like Craig, but honestly he starts up with Illka just as much.
I have seen many of Illka's posts here, since his 1 week ban. And I would say, he has controlled himself better than most. (glad he has now started making his own threads)

But if he (as Craig told him) wants to be taken seriously by the Audio community he must learn to conduct himself like so many others there do.

Once again, I like Craig, but when did Craig become the all god of audio, for Illka to listen to?
(and no, I am not putting these words in your mouth - the 'all god' thing)

Hopefully most have learned that there is not any one single person that should be always listened to.
That is the reason, we have a brain (some use it better than others, but)...
We can always decide on what sounds best (and this has been said thousands of times)

Anyhow, I am not really adding anything to sub discussion of this (like many of you)(mainly because it is the steam vent, so no reason to get technical).

posters can get banned in the steam vent!

Yes, people get banned from here all the time. (honestly, there are some jerks that need to be banned)
(like that fellow that was banned within 3 posts a week or 2 ago) THIS THREAD

EDIT:: OOPS, sorry I spelled Ilkka wrong. Clearly shows, I have no favorites here.
(some, people get on a band wagon)

 

[craigsub]

Brian ... a few responses ...

1. No, I do not start up with Ilkka, or anyone else, for that matter. I will respond to either attacks or allegations, but start things ? Nope.

2. We have actually begun to have a bit of fun, and by we, I am including Ilkka. This IS supposed to be fun.

3. I don't expect to be treated as some form of "audio god". ever.

4. I think Ilkka is trying to learn to get along. He is quite adept at working with computers, and hopefully he will continue this new road of working with people who can assist him in taking his data and turning that into useful knowledge for audio nuts.

I am more than willing to work with him on this.

 

[craigsub]

Ilkka - some public suggestions ...

1. Revisit your current reviews, and replace the "numbers" in the charts with your newer measuring criteria.

2. Keep posting as you have since re-instatement. We may actually get along. I am sure that would disappoint a few people ... but I say let's give it a shot ...

3. Let's find you a skinnier chick.

To everyone else ...As I suggested to The mods here in the loudspeakers section. Lighten up. Have more fun - a lot of you already are, and this is not a blanket statement. But apparently the "SVS Marketing Department" in Ilkka's signature was placed there as an insult to Ilkka.

Not cool.

Let's get back to talking real world performance of subwoofers.

And Women.

 

[Ilkka]

I know for a fact that you were banned from the Axiom forum after insulting the manufacturer. I'm not as certain about the av123 forum, but I am certain that Mark severely warned you, in no uncertain terms, about your behavior.

I made probably only a couple of posts there, where I tried to explain my measurements, not insult Axiom. It was pretty clear that Ian C didn't understand all the measurements I had taken and interpret them wrongly. I tried to explain, but he wasn't listening anymore in that point.

Mark has never threatened to ban/suspend me.

What "bias" are you referring to? Yes, I consider Jakeman a friend, but I don't agree with everything he says any more than he agrees with everything I say. And, though I understand the frustration that precipitated his post (I, too, was offended by the broad, sweeping insults that prompted it), I don't condone it. I just feel, and with good reason, that you have caused more trouble than he, and am amused by you calling him "the real troublemaker." As evidence, I've cited the various sites where you've been banned, some of them more than once.

I said him the real troublemaker, because for example my AVS ban was due the numerous heated discussions with him and Craig. Especially regarding their strange measurements for Ultra and Axiom subs. Unfortunately AVS banned the wrong person, but gladly AH mods were wiser.

And, if this statement of yours "And getting banned doesn't mean one is necessarily a troublemaker. One just needs a few persistent enemies" is to be accepted as fact (do not assume that I do), then it applies to Jakeman as well as to you. You don't get it both ways.

I have never complained about these gentlemen to any AVS mod. If some people want you banned, it's not that difficult to do when mods have too much work to do.

 

[Ilkka]

Ilkka - some public suggestions ...

1. Revisit your current reviews, and replace the "numbers" in the charts with your newer measuring criteria.

2. Keep posting as you have since re-instatement. We may actually get along. I am sure that would disappoint a few people ... but I say let's give it a shot ...

3. Let's find you a skinnier chick.

4. But apparently the "SVS Marketing Department" in Ilkka's signature was placed there as an insult to Ilkka.

Not cool.

1. That would require taking new measurements for EVERY sub I have tested and unfortunately that is impossible. But as I have told, EP-600 will get a rerun, because it seems to "suffer" the most from the 10% THD test.

2. If we get too many complaints being too friendly, let's reconsider...

3. Thanks for the help, but I'm alright.

4. Yes it was. And that's why comments like "AV Talk mods/admins are very fine and honest people" coming from for example jakeman hurt a lot.

 

[Ilkka]

If you were seriously interested in "academical [sic] purposes only," you could have made the comparison between sub "A" and sub "B." I noticed that when you added a third sub, you labeled it sub "C." VERY interesting.

I could have done that, but I also wanted to show that for example jakeman's comments of Ultra having more IMD wasn't true. So it was 95% academical and 5% something else.

But now that I labelled the third sub as C, you aren't happy with that either? How could I ever please you guys?

Agreed. I merely suggested that you don't. When you asked this question of me, you opened the possibility that my objections to your behavior were based primarily on the brands involved (Axiom and SVS). I just wanted to be sure that others understand that my objections have nothing to do with the brands, but rather with your behavior.

Understood.

 

[Ajax]

But now that I labelled the third sub as C, you aren't happy with that either? How could I ever please you guys?

Not happy only because, in this case, it proves your pro-SVS/anti-Axiom agenda. Either all subs identities should be hidden or all subs should be identified. That's known as fair and equal treatment. To do it the way you did demonstrates that fair and equal treatment is not part of your agenda and, once again, makes blatantly obvious your lack of ethics.

 

[Ilkka]

Not happy only because, in this case, it proves your pro-SVS/anti-Axiom agenda. Either all subs identities should be hidden or all subs should be identified. That's known as fair and equal treatment. To do it the way you did demonstrates that fair and equal treatment is not part of your agenda and, once again, makes blatantly obvious your lack of ethics.

Well I can't hide the identities of those first two subs anymore? And it really doesn't matter what the third sub is. Numbers are the most important ones, not which sub produced them. All subs were equally measured and that's the most important thing at this point. We can concentrate later on which subs produce more IMD than the others.

And I don't really see the point behind your "pro-SVS/anti-Axiom agenda"? If I measure two subwoofers, does it automatically mean that I'm pro the one which scores better results? My God, I've never said that the EP-600 is worse subwoofer than the Ultra. It just measures differently. YOU need to choose which variables you weight more and choose the sub you like better.

 

[Ajax]

I've made my point.

 

[Sheep]

Not happy only because, in this case, it proves your pro-SVS/anti-Axiom agenda. Either all subs identities should be hidden or all subs should be identified. That's known as fair and equal treatment. To do it the way you did demonstrates that fair and equal treatment is not part of your agenda and, once again, makes blatantly obvious your lack of ethics.

Hm, maybe you should go check out the Secrets review on the Paradigm Seismic subs. The compared them to subwoofer "X".

SheepStar

 

[gene]

Hm, maybe you should go check out the Secrets review on the Paradigm Seismic subs. The compared them to subwoofer "X".

Let me guess, it outperformed Subwoofer X didn't it? Next time they sould compare it to Subwoofer YYZ. I bet YYZ would crush it

 

[vinyl]

Let me guess, it outperformed Subwoofer X didn't it? Next time they sould compare it to Subwoofer YYZ. I bet YYZ would crush it

Wouldn’t it also inflict structural damage to the dwelling?

 

[Sheep]

Let me guess, it outperformed Subwoofer X didn't it? Next time they sould compare it to Subwoofer YYZ. I bet YYZ would crush it

No, thats it. The Seismic did HORRIBLE. The other subwoofer was much better, but the reviewer kept saying how much he liked it.

Here are the numbers from the review.

Max SPL at Combination of 20 Hz, 31.5 Hz, and 50 Hz Brand Y:108dB Paradigm: 120dB
THD at 20 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:18.3% Paradigm:100%!
THD at 25 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:28.3% Paradigm:52.3%
THD at 31.5 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:9.9% Paradigm:11.9%
THD at 40 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:7.2% Paradigm:8%
THD at 50 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:4.2% Paradigm:3.9%
THD at 80 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:2.1% Paradigm:1.4%

Talk about money under the table.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

No, thats it. The Seismic did HORRIBLE. The other subwoofer was much better, but he reviewer kept saying how much he liked it.

Here are the numbers from the review.

Max SPL at Combination of 20 Hz, 31.5 Hz, and 50 Hz Brand Y:108dB Paradigm: 120dB
THD at 20 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:18.3% Paradigm:100%!
THD at 25 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:28.3% Paradigm:52.3%
THD at 31.5 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:9.9% Paradigm:11.9%
THD at 40 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:7.2% Paradigm:8%
THD at 50 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:4.2% Paradigm:3.9%
THD at 80 Hz and 100 dB Brand Y:2.1% Paradigm:1.4%

Talk about money under the table.

SheepStar

At the time of this review, 2 years ago, perhaps 0.1 % of movie bass was below 25 Hz. Even today it is not over about 1% ...

The Paradigm is very linear from about 27 Hz and up, and has the output of 4 of the "brand X" sub in the 20-31.5-50 Hz test.

What the reviewer actually heard was less restricted dynamics.

The Paradigm is not a "horrible subwoofer".

It is becoming increasingly clear that most people really don't have a good feel for what makes a subwoofer sound good.

 

[Sheep]

Well, considering its rated to 19 or so Hz, and its putting out 100% THD at 20Hz, thats pathetic.

What do you mean "No one knows what makes a subwoofer sound good"? That is relative. C'mon Craig, you should know that.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Well, considering its rated to 19 or so Hz, and its putting out 100% THD at 20Hz, thats pathetic.

What do you mean "No one knows what makes a subwoofer sound good"? That is relative. C'mon Craig, you should know that.

SheepStar

Sheep ... Would you please stop mis-quoting me ?

 

[Sheep]

Sheep ... Would you please stop mis-quoting me ?

It doesn't matter if its not word for word, the fact is there is no general rule to a good sounding subwoofer. However, if you can get one that measures well for less then other subwoofers, technically speaking, you have a good subwoofer, as far as transparency goes.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

It doesn't matter if its not word for word, the fact is there is no general rule to a good sounding subwoofer. However, if you can get one that measures well for less then other subwoofers, technically speaking, you have a good subwoofer, as far as transparency goes.

SheepStar

Sheep, This may surprise you, but a subwoofer which can deliver 120 dB with a combined 20, 31.5 and 50 Hz signal will, the vast majority of the time, sound better than a subwoofer which can only deliver 108 dB.

It was clear from your statement earlier in regards to the "horrible" measurements that you don't understand this.

The 20 Hz measurement that has you so upset will barely be noticeable during those rare, loud bass spectaculars.

But a subwoofer compressing a 115 dB signal to 108 dB will sound MUCH worse than the subwoofer which CAN deliver that signal.

This has been proven with blind testing followed by measurements, and is exactly what happened in the Paradigm review.

You think the 100% THD @ 20 Hz is a more telling figure than the 120 dB max output vs. 108 dB.

It isn't. Perhaps someday you will get the chance to find out first hand.

And Sheep, you mis-quoted me. Period.

 

[Ajax]

It doesn't matter if its not word for word...

It does if the words you substitute literally alter the meaning the sentence. And, that's precisely what you did. The result is you end up arguing against a point that was never made. Plus, you put your altered version of what Craig said in quotation marks, implying that your altered version is exactly what Craig said. THAT is a dishonest inaccuracy.

 

[Sheep]

It is becoming increasingly clear that most people really don't have a good feel for what makes a subwoofer sound good.

Everyone has a different impression of a good subwoofer. This statement is Void.

So your saying a subwoofer putting out 120dB with 100% THD with sound better then a subwoofer putting out 108dB with 28% THD?

Oh man, I need to quote that.

So your saying a subwoofer putting out 120dB with 100% THD with sound better then a subwoofer putting out 108dB with 28% THD?

There.

It does if the words you substitute literally alter the meaning the sentence. And, that's precisely what you did. The result is you end up arguing against a point that was never made. Plus, you put your altered version of what Craig said in quotation marks, implying that your altered version is exactly what Craig said. THAT is a dishonest inaccuracy.

You called me a liar?! OMG, I am so offended. I am going to whine at the mods because I can't handle a little criticism. In debating, you rebut the first argument, and add in your own. I don't see one.

SheepStar