Axiom Audio EP500 VS SVS PB12-Plus/2

[silversurfer]

Yes, if you read my rather lengthy post I made some time ago, I specifically highlighted the importance of listening. I believe we can get a rather good feel about sub's performance and SQ by just looking at enough accurate and versatile measurements, but the final decision should be always based on listening in your own room.

Yes, data and listening tests go hand in hand, but you don't do listening tests, which means, you do not know what your data is telling you.

 

[Ilkka]

Your methodology is so intrinsically flawed that the results are meaningless. If you were someone worthwhile I would explain why and suggest a better approach to measurement starting with looking at the components that consititute IMD but you simply aren't worth the time. Your better off sticking to that misleading THD @ 10% statistic that you and certain reviewers like to report. You and the SVS fanboys can delude yourselves with the pseudo-science.

Well this is certainly sad, but what can I do? We could share some ideas and talk about different measurement methodologies, but instead you keep calling me names and degrade my measurements.

 

[Ilkka]

Yes, data and listening tests go hand in hand, but you don't do listening tests, which means, you do not know what your data is telling you.

I certainly do listening tests with my own subs. But I can't listen to a dozen subs in a one day + take measurements for them.

If someone wants to pay me for a same kind of test which Yates did, I will gladly do it.

 

[silversurfer]

I certainly do listening tests with my own subs. But I can't listen to a dozen subs in a one day + take measurements for them.

Like I posted before, you do not know what the data is telling you if you do not do listening test on the subs. You tested two subs, posted data, but did not do listening tests.

 

[Ilkka]

Like I posted before, you do not know what the data is telling you if you do not do listening test on the subs. You tested two subs, posted data, but did not do listening tests.

I didn't own the other sub and my friend took it right back to his home after the GP measurements, so there was no time for indoor listening.

Why won't you guys attack also over AV Talk people for not doing any listening tests? It's okay for them "only measure", but not for me?

 

[Ajax]

Would it be too much asked if we could leave the "case Axiom" behind us? I mean what could I possibly do to make you feel any better about it? What's done is done.

Behind us? Done? You mean "behind us" or "done" as in the recent thread posted at AVS, AND HT Guide, AND HT Forum, in which, by strange coincidence, you measured distortion of the Ultra vs. the 600, and which was openly linked here? That, of course, has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the "case Axiom" does it.

You mean "done" as in the post by TV quoted here, which raised the issue again?

Also it is quite interesting that you are labeling me as an SVS marketer, because Axiom was "put up" against SVS. If the other sub would have been for example an HSU or Velodyne, would I be now labeled as an HSU marketer?

Again you oversimplify. I don't label you an SVS marketer because "Axiom was 'put up' against SVS." To answer your question, if you were a fanboy of HSU or Velodyne, passing yourself off as an unbiased, independent subwoofer reviewer, and you behaved as you did, YES, I would label you a HSU or Velodyne marketer.

Likewise, if you had behaved as unethically in a measurement of a HSU or Velodyne subwoofer, I would have been just as outraged and just as outspoken about your behavior then. I am a fan of Axiom the company, and Axiom the product. But, I am also a fan of HSU the company and HSU the product, Rocket the company and Rocket the product, ACI the company and ACI the product, and..........oh the list is too long. And believe it or not I am a fan of SVS the product and SVS the company. If you'll remember, I was the only one of 6 who liked the Ultra as much as the Axiom in a blind listening test. And here is a post I recently made at the Axiom forum.

Ajax
(connoisseur)
04/05/06 05:23 PM
Re: Advice on the purchase of my new system [re: skyhawk669] Edit Reply

In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Is there any other sub that is comparable to the EP500? I'd like to consider all the options.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course there is . You might check out the SVS PB12 Ultra, the SVS PB12 Plus/2, the brand new HSU VTF-3 HO Turbo (I can't find it on their web site. I believe there is a slight delay while a minor driver problem is addressed), the Rocket UFW-12, or the beautiful ACI Titan XL. All are competent subwoofers, and each has advantages and disadvantages relative to the others. I happen to prefer the EP500 because of the DSP technology, it's linear frequency response, and it's relatively compact, unobtrusive footprint. YMMV.

Jack

"People generally quarrel because they cannot argue." - G. K. Chesterton
Post Extras

I even went to the trouble to make each of the subwoofer names into links to better enable the poster to research the subs I mentioned.

So, don't you try to paint me as an Axiom fanboy. I am an Axiom FAN. Based on your behavior, I would understand if you couldn't tell the difference.

 

[jakeman]

Well this is certainly sad, but what can I do? We could share some ideas and talk about different measurement methodologies, but instead you keep calling me names and degrade my measurements.

I have not called you names as I'd rather not stoop to your level. . I've tried helping you with measurments before and regretted it. So you and your friends should stumble along and continue to make fools of yourselves with flawed thinking and IMD testing.

 

[JeffD2.]

Check out:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=245488&postcount=33

where Tom Vodhanel from SVS says:


and later after it was discussed how the AVTalk moderator's had modified Ilkka's profile and locked it:

And you just posted this same "damage control" which just got locked over at AVS. Before now, I didn't know you could be a "fanboy" of a person.

 

[jakeman]

Jeff these type of guys always show their true colours. Earlier he posted two of my posts somehow trying to suggest I contradicted myself and then when I called him on it he went silent. These SVS fanboys should put cowboy hats on and go climb a mountain together.

 

[JeffD2.]

Jeff these type of guys always show their true colours. Earlier he posted two of my posts somehow trying to suggest I contradicted myself and then when I called him on it he went silent. These SVS fanboys should put cowboy hats on and go climb a mountain together.

ROFLMAO, I think I just shiiite myself. Good one!

 

[Ilkka]

Behind us? Done? You mean "behind us" or "done" as in the recent thread posted at AVS, AND HT Guide, AND HT Forum, in which, by strange coincidence, you measured distortion of the Ultra vs. the 600, and which was openly linked here? That, of course, has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the "case Axiom" does it.

That thread was only posted at AVS at first, but since it got deleted and me banned, I decided to post it at HT Guide and HTF. I didn't link it here, someone else did. And why were those two subs used? Because I only own those two subs. If I would own a Velodyne and an HSU sub, those two would have been used. Simple as that.

Some saw it as a shot at Axiom, I saw it as an interesting experiment regarding IMD and woofer excursion.

You mean "done" as in the post by TV quoted here, which raised the issue again?

Again you are blaiming me for something I haven't done. I did not quote TV here.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=169068&postcount=231

You mean that post? Which issue it raises?

So, don't you try to paint me as an Axiom fanboy. I am an Axiom FAN. Based on your behavior, I would understand if you couldn't tell the difference.

I haven't painted you as an Axiom fanboy?

 

[ssabripo]

The amount of bovine excression and ignorance in this thread is truly dumbfounding.............. Half of you attacking each other, acting as if YOU know "more" about subwoofers, their designs, methodologies, etc, and prancing around like little spoiled ^&(*%. I can't believe some of you who as early as MONTHS ago were totally clueless, can dance around in every forum you can think off and act as if you had an immaculate vision and were given "the 10 commandments of subwoofer design"....gimme a freaggin break

No wonder the same people squander and battle over the dead carcases of all these so called "debates" about subwoofer design and subjects such as distortion, etc... NOTHING has come out of your so called "debates" other than more poison and stupidity.

You wanna see how this audio hobby is supposed be conducted in the spirit of learning and sharing, then go check out DIYaudio and learn some etiquette for crying out loud.

GROW UP, ALL of you!

Clint, sorry if I "crossed the line", and if I will be slapped or banned, so be it.... but you really need to get a hold of all these morons who are doing nothing but spilling their little cancer around.

 

[Audioholics]

Let me explain how this works here - cause I know a lot of you are new.

WE weed out the problem people and would appreciate everyone helping us to keep things civil.

I have banned Jakeman for week. There is no excuse for this type of personal assault. I could care less how much history there is with everyone.

Consider this a fresh start for everyone. New forum. New start. We don't have the time for this and so please don't make us read through and divide up threads because you guys couldn't keep it from getting personal.

The Goal Here: Keeping threads open and discussions active. We will ban you for personal attacks. Simple. Attack the methods. Attack the facts. Attack the data. There is no need to attack the person. If something gets frustrating, drop us a PM. We don't want people diverting threads and causing mayhem either... but let us do our jobs and keep it civil.

The Alternative: Threads keep getting closed down and nobody can talk about anything for more than a few posts...

 

[Steve42]

Clint,

I've only been here for little while, but I really like how you run your site. Too bad people have to resort to calling eachother out like this. We all would be much better off sharing and questioning calmly and God forbid, treating eachother like human beings.

One of the very first things I ever remember learning almost 40 years ago, was "treat others as you would have others treat you" Essentially the "Golden Rule". I'm far from a religious person, but this little thing my Mom taught me years ago (also not a religiuos person) when I was a kid, is probably the most valuable thing I have ever learned. And knows no religous, color, or physical boundries.

There is always a calm way to solve conflicts. See what Ghandi accomplished without raising a finger years ago with regards to England in relation to India and Africa. Surprisingly enough he did this while being beaten, thrown in jail and publically humiliated. And never once had a fowl word for anyone. You would think, if a simple man could beat the largest empire of that time without any ill will or any force at all, certainly we could do better in this very small scale on AV forums.

 

[Ajax]

That thread was only posted at AVS at first, but since it got deleted and me banned, I decided to post it at HT Guide and HTF. I didn't link it here, someone else did. And why were those two subs used? Because I only own those two subs. If I would own a Velodyne and an HSU sub, those two would have been used. Simple as that.

If you were seriously interested in "academical [sic] purposes only," you could have made the comparison between sub "A" and sub "B." I noticed that when you added a third sub, you labeled it sub "C." VERY interesting.

Again you are blaiming me for something I haven't done. I did not quote TV here.

If you'll read my post, you'll find I didn't say you quoted TV. One of your supporters did. Who posted that inaccuracy is irrelevant. As long as inaccuracies are posted about this issue, I feel justified in responding. I'm sorry if you don't like it.

I haven't painted you as an Axiom fanboy?

Agreed. I merely suggested that you don't. When you asked this question of me,

If the other sub would have been for example an HSU or Velodyne, would I be now labelled as an HSU marketer?

you opened the possibility that my objections to your behavior were based primarily on the brands involved (Axiom and SVS). I just wanted to be sure that others understand that my objections have nothing to do with the brands, but rather with your behavior.

 

[Ajax]

Shervin, respectfully, nobody has gone over to those threads at HTGuide and HTForum and pulled a thread crap, even though you yourself have passed out numerous insults to some of us here. And, now you're here, insulting everyone involved in this thread. Would you make the same post over there, please, for it applies to those threads no less than this one.

In your one post you passed out more insults than anyone else involved in this thread. You were just clever enough to not aim them at any one individual by name. It would be prudent to take your own advice, for many of your criticisms apply as much to yourself as to others.

 

[jmprader]

posters can get banned in the steam vent!

I had some fun with the distortion audibility test...before everything disintegrated. I'll have some fun with informative, thoughtful posts elsewhere on this site tonight and in the future. I will continue to ignore the anti-bob's.

There is considerable intellect and hands on knowledge that roams these threads. Some of those possessing or interested in hearing it remain reasonably above the fray. Those who resist being drawn in by the rants and raves keep it from becoming total anarchy, administrators notwithstanding. The rest of you are part of the angry crowd...and it's all about what, subs?

Bob Knight's wife had a phrase for him that hangs on the wall in my home office..."the horse is dead, get off"

(edited for spelling)
See ya in the mainstream guys.

 

[ssabripo]

I will just say a couple of words, and be on my way out of this thread....there are much more enlightening threads going on in the main forum, where some desire to learn and exchange ideas is still going on.

1. Clint, I understand your point, and I will try to contribute technical/objective/subjective information, however small that may be....we will see how far it goes.

2. Jack, respectfully as well, I ask that you please point me to were in those "other forums" I pulled "crap like that" or "insults towards some of us" as you stated, particularly the name calling that John Palumbo so eloquently provided us in this post?
I'm severely confused, since I have settled old differences and differing points of views with everyone, including Craig, Rob (RMK!), and so forth....except for John. I'm sure most can see why.
As to your point of doing the same in "other forums", I much rather take Clint's advice and just move on to learning and avoiding the personal stuff....serves no purpose, and frankly, I'm tired of it.

finally, the angry comment I made was directed at those very VERY few who feel the need to constantly make insults and derogatory statements, and certainly did not apply to most in this forum. But if I offended you, I apologize in advance.

3. There is no insult intended in this point, but we shall see a much more peaceful, uplifting, and truly learning week.....it will become obvious why. I look forward to hopefully more information from Craig on his HO vs Ultra shootout, Driver technology thread, and many others.

cheers.....

 

[Ajax]

Shervin, I hope you don't consider this to be a compliment "I wonder where Joke-man stands on this issue" followed by a laughing smilie. Also you have been less than complimentary to David Bott. However, if you feel my comment unjust I will retract it with apology.

On the other hand, I believe you said, in your vituperative post above, "Half of you attacking each other, acting as if YOU know "more" about subwoofers, their designs, methodologies, etc, and prancing around like little spoiled %^*." And in large print for added emphasis, "GROW UP, ALL of you!." I'm having trouble reconciling that with "the angry comment I made was directed at those very VERY few who feel the need to constantly make insults and derogatory statements. (Bold emphasis is mine, not Shervin's)

 

[RMK!]

My take

I consider John (Jakeman) a friend even though I have never met him. There have been numerous personal attacks leveled at both John and Craig. More than any other two individuals and why do you suppose that is? My guess is that what those two guys have in common is they question conventional wisdom and stir things up. They ask why and how and then go out and do it themselves. They also take the time to report what they see/hear. They do not sit quietly on the sideline and take pot shots at people but they are men, and when they are attacked they fight back. I respect that.

Ilkka is a bright guy with a personality defect (we all have em, just some are better at disguising them). His behavior relative to Axiom was and is reprehensible. His fondness for SVS is fine, they make a great product. But if he (as Craig told him) wants to be taken seriously by the Audio community he must learn to conduct himself like so many others there do. People like DR. HSU and Peter Marks, Ian Colquhoun, Mark Schifter and Bruce Hall all set the bar pretty high in terms of their comportment and professionalism. We could all learn a thing or two from those gentlemen.

This is about as wordy as I ever get and it is getting late so I’m out, but it would sure be nice if all of these strong bright personalities could realize that we share an interest and a passion for Audio and that is why we are here. With that as a common bond maybe we can find a way to disagree but do so respectfully and continue to share information. That is what this is about.

Oh and if any of you were falling for this, I too have a bridge in NY I’d be willing to sell ya.

Fighting is more FUN, please continue