Amplifier Sound

[markw]

Foolish, ha?? This is precisely and predictably the kind of response I expect from self-righteous and pompous textbook robots who think they have a monopoly of what is right and what should be done in a highly personal hobby.



If you don't know, you have my sympathies.



LOL, Interesting. You recognize human nature as deleteriously at work in Marketing. And because of that, your insistence on DBT, logic, objectivity and the scientific rigors reveal your eagerness to expunge fallible human nature out entirely in this hobby.



You are. You'd want to. By disparaging the personal experiences of forum members who opine differently from your DBT results, you betray some suppresed rage or hidden envy at people who bought expensive gears you canot afford. And you hide behind DBT results that unmistakably give comfort and consolation.



Good. Just so we understand each other. These brands compete in an open market. They don't force their goods on us. In the same way, don't force your DBT results on us and expect us to settle with mediocre stuff.


So I find it self-serving for people to invoke DBTs to denigrate those high priced merchandise for their untestable claims of sonic superiority, as if only testable claims matter in this hobby.

Denigrate anyone? Really? Or, that is just another unreliable observation?

Unreliable or not, the observation has its basis. You obviously enjoy screamng your DBT results and testable claims to people who opine differently based purely on untested personal experience. As if only testable claims matter in this hobby.

I saw David Copperfield make an airplane disappear. It's a fact, really. I really, really saw this. My eyes wouldn't lie to me, would they?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I saw David Copperfield make an airplane disappear. It's a fact, really. I really, really saw this. My eyes wouldn't lie to me, would they?

I saw him make th espace shuttle disapper as well. So did millions of others.

 

[miklorsmith]

Do all amplifiers sound the same? No, Unquestionably, to my ears. For those demanding some sort of objective test, please do not read on - this will be a bunch of static and not worth reading.

For the rest - here's the scenario. I just got new speakers. They are revealing to the point of being holographic. Inadvertedly, I fried my main amp and had to use an integrated Audiolab that retailed for about $1,000 in 1996. It is rated at 65 wpc and has a preamp-circuit bypass, so I was using the power section only, with a separate pre.

Two nights ago, I listened to Norah Jones, Come Away with Me, which is a very special CD. I was astounded by the spaciousness and clarity of the sound. The speakers completely disappeared from the room. I know this is somewhat cliche, but when you get it right, they really do.

The speakers have a neat feature that allows you to bi-amp. My original (and ultimate) plan is to use the integrated as the second amp to the speakers. I had the idea of bringing my garage amp and using it for primary duties, and sending the integrated to it's planned function as second fiddle. The garage amp is a respectable, though inexpensive NAD that claims 30 wpc and retailed for around $300. It is nearly new and is in perfect operating condition.

Last night, I was using only the NAD. I listened to the same CD and the magic was gone. Sure, just about all the same sounds were there, but the precision, textures, and tangibility were not. The most objective and noticable difference was a pronounced treble rolloff. The soundstage was condensed and overall immersion lost. Upshot? The Audiolab is going back into main duties until I get the broken amp back.

Setup was identical, except that I was using nice Naim cabling for the NAD and stuff I made from Lowe's for the Audiolab. Both events were at similar volume and well within the limitations of both amps.

This was not what I expected at all. I thought these amps would be fairly comparable, with the Audiolab possibly having a slight edge with its higher power rating and somewhat superior pedigree.

After all the exchanges over this, a small corner of my mind was doubting whether amplifiers actually DO sound different. That minority view has now completely been quashed. No question whatsoever. Don't hold your breath waiting for an old amp shootout test, there isn't one coming.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Do all amplifiers sound the same? No, Unquestionably, to my ears. For those demanding some sort of objective test, please do not read on - this will be a bunch of static and not worth reading.

You should have boldfacede this firts para

Firstly, no one is claiming that 'all' amps sound the same.

Secondly, untill your comparison protocol is better, no one will know, not even the hairdresser of barber.

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

Somewhat related to this: I recently got a used Pioneer DV-563A "universal" player - considered a bargain by many. It may be replacing an Arcam Alpha 8 CD player...a few years old but fairly "high end" still.

When at first I listened to a few discs on the Pioneer I thought I heard a harshness on some high freq. material, especially violins. Hmm, maybe there is something to this business of electronics (including amps) sounding different after all. Disappointing!

So I played the same discs on the Arcam. Listened carefully. Whaddya know...they sounded the same after all! I've repeated the test - very informal and hardly scientific of course -- with the same result. So next week the Arcam will be on eBay.

So what was going on here? Did I have some barely conscious prejudice that a cheap Pioneer just coudn't sound as good? Was I tired? Time of day? Something I ate? Pi$$ed off because the Pioneer's front panel display wasn't working and I was looking for a reason to dump it? (It's working fine now - that was another thread)

Just goes to show, IMO, that it is nearly impossible to but bias aside and that uncontrolled listening comparisons are inherently unreliable.

Of course, maybe the Pioneer actually does sound worse and my "objective" bias is denying it! Ah, well. It's a hobby after all, and part of my enjoyment of it consists of getting the most audio bang for the buck. Give it up for the cheapo Pioneer!

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

This is as good a place as any to ask what's up with a common scenario we've all heard of. It often gives me pause and makes me question my objectivist stance.

You know the story: audiophile has just inserted a whizbang new amp/source component/cable/capacitor/time-space-continuum correction device into his/her system when allegedly disinterested/tin-eared third party (like a spouse or friend or, in pro audio, maybe a co-worker) unaware that a change has been made wanders by and says, "Sounds good! What did you do?". Which confirms the audiophile's belief that, aha! cables/amps/capacitors/etc. really DO make a difference!

So...what gives?

A real difference related to unknown causes?

Is the disinterested party merely humoring the audiophile?

Were the levels different?

Did the disinterested party just get laid and everything is rosy?

Alcohol?

Drugs?

Some other psychological phenomenon (seriously) they didn't tell us about in Psych 101?

 

[Steve1000]

Maybe just luck of the draw, but I've had really good luck with cheap Pioneer stuff. My first CD player not to bite the dust was a Pioneer (about 17 years old now) and my first modern (digital I/Os and dolby surround) receiver not to bite the dust and with low enough of a noise floor so I didn't return it was a Pioneer.

Give it up for the cheapo Pioneer!

 

[mtrycrafts]

When at first I listened to a few discs on the Pioneer I thought I heard a harshness on some high freq. material, especially violins. Hmm, maybe there is something to this business of electronics (including amps) sounding different after all. Disappointing!

So I played the same discs on the Arcam. Listened carefully. Whaddya know...they sounded the same after all! I've repeated the test - very informal and hardly scientific of course -- with the same result. So next week the Arcam will be on eBay.

Yes, human memory of what happened yesterdays and what is happening right now in this case the CD comparison, is rather faulty
We think it is reliable but time after time it is proven wrong. Just the way it is, nothing more, nothing less




So what was going on here? Did I have some barely conscious prejudice that a cheap Pioneer just coudn't sound as good? Was I tired? Time of day? Something I ate? Pi$$ed off because the Pioneer's front panel display wasn't working and I was looking for a reason to dump it? (It's working fine now - that was another thread)

Just goes to show, IMO, that it is nearly impossible to but bias aside and that uncontrolled listening comparisons are inherently unreliable.

All because of out memory of the past

 

[mtrycrafts]

This is as good a place as any to ask what's up with a common scenario we've all heard of. It often gives me pause and makes me question my objectivist stance.

You know the story: audiophile has just inserted a whizbang new amp/source component/cable/capacitor/time-space-continuum correction device into his/her system when allegedly disinterested/tin-eared third party (like a spouse or friend or, in pro audio, maybe a co-worker) unaware that a change has been made wanders by and says, "Sounds good! What did you do?". Which confirms the audiophile's belief that, aha! cables/amps/capacitors/etc. really DO make a difference!

So...what gives?

A real difference related to unknown causes?

Is the disinterested party merely humoring the audiophile?

Were the levels different?

Did the disinterested party just get laid and everything is rosy?

Alcohol?

Drugs?

Some other psychological phenomenon (seriously) they didn't tell us about in Psych 101?

Well, humans are by nature look for differences. Survival depended on it? So, we see, hear, percive, feel differences when there may not be any.

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

Yep, just got back from the SMWTMS meeting and discussed the question with Tom Nousaine. The vagary of memory is part of it, as is the human tendency to seek out differences (and patterns, including of course patterns of causation). When presented with identical stimuli of any sort, people will still think they are different, especially if they are predisposed to the idea that they might actually be different. Nousaine used the example of presenting the same orange to a person twice from a closed box and asking them to describe it each time. People will often assume the oranges are different and describe the "differences" in considerable detail. The friend/spouse of the contantly tweaking 'phile knows that she's always fiddling with something anyway so he's already predisposed to detect a difference. And if he makes the "gee, it sounds good" comment coincidentally after a magic cable has been inserted...voila!

And sometimes it's just the friend/spouse figuring they'll make a compliment because, golly, she's always fiddling with that dang system and if it makes her happy...

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yep, just got back from the SMWTMS meeting and discussed the question with Tom Nousaine. The vagary of memory is part of it, as is the human tendency to seek out differences (and patterns, including of course patterns of causation). When presented with identical stimuli of any sort, people will still think they are different, especially if they are predisposed to the idea that they might actually be different. Nousaine used the example of presenting the same orange to a person twice from a closed box and asking them to describe it each time. People will often assume the oranges are different and describe the "differences" in considerable detail. The friend/spouse of the contantly tweaking 'phile knows that she's always fiddling with something anyway so he's already predisposed to detect a difference. And if he makes the "gee, it sounds good" comment coincidentally after a magic cable has been inserted...voila!

And sometimes it's just the friend/spouse figuring they'll make a compliment because, golly, she's always fiddling with that dang system and if it makes her happy...

I think you hooked up with the right crowd You will be exoposed to some interesting stuff
Anything about that speaker testing?

 

[miklorsmith]

Really? What's interesting about spending your energies trying to prove everything is the same?

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

Well, actually it's a matter of spending the energies to distinguish between the things that really do make a difference from those that don't. Which liberates you to spend your money and energy on the things that really do make a difference: your speakers, room, and recordings. But that is really only a small part of what these folks are about. Sometimes it's hardly about "audio" at all but more about music. An upcoming meeting is on the history of early rock'n'roll, for instance; At least one member is a serious collector of old, obscure 45s! An autosound competition or meet seems to be a semi-regular event too.

I'll post about the SMTWMS speaker test in a day of two -- kinda busy now. It did involve prototypes of the host's speaker design which includes some patented horn design that is also the subject of his new AES paper -- interesting stuff! Uniform polar response, controlled directivity, and investigating/eliminating the typical horn colorations seem to be his areas of interest. A very serious guy with some interesting ideas. See his Website.

 

[miklorsmith]

That does sound interesting. Speakers are very cool devices and undoubtedly make the biggest difference in any system. It seems there is a lot of innovation in speaker design nowadays. High-tech materials are probably the biggest advance, with some driver materials being exceedingly light with a corresponding quickness in sound. Manufacturing technology is allowing these new materials to be employed in designs which would have been unreachable for us common folk only 10 years ago.

I recently purchased a pair of Gallo Ref. 3's and I have to say the new technologies are paying in spades. They are really phenomenal and a quantum shift in my sound, which is much more than I can say for any of the other changes I've made.

I had no idea that hornspeakers were evolving in this way. I look forward to your post on this. Controlled directivity??? Very cool. This is one of the big limitations of horns (so far). Now if they can just make them smaller. . .

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

...I had no idea that hornspeakers were evolving in this way....Now if they can just make them smaller. . .

Nope, these were big muthas! Very low WAF! Only the tweet was a horn, though. Big woofer, and the cabinet was bass reflex.

I took a couple of pix but they didn't come out great. I imagine Mr. Geddes will have pictures of his speakers on his site in the future now that they've been "unveiled".