Amplifier Sound

[mtrycrafts]

This post at another location

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=ck2cbe01nvm@news1.newsguy.com&prev=/groups?hl=en&group=rec.audio.high-end


brought an interesting idea to mind.

Some/most golden ears claim that the past blind tests of amps didn't use highly revealing amps or systems that would show sonic differences.

If our ears are as sensitive as these 'golden ears' think they are and perhaps without limits to its capability, then, as long as the system can differentiate any amount and are different any amount, that amount would be in the envelop of detection of their claimed sensitivity of their hearing. Why could they not detect audible differences in all those tests between comparable amps unless broken? Obviously none measured the same of anything.

On the other hand, if our hearing has limits and the scientific audio world knows this well, the claim for a need of revealing systems are irrelevant beyond the limits of hearing and the amps and systems used in the past were more than sufficient to reveal audible differences.

If those older amps and system could only differentiate, lets say 1dB spl, any golden ear could detect such large differences, hence, none of those amps had such large deviations. If those amps and system could reveal a .3dB spl or more, then some of the golden ears would be able to differentiate them but no one has. None must have had a difference as large as this.
Furthermore, I would postulate that none had a difference above the threshold of detection of any paramteres or a positive outcome would be all over the place between comparable amps or systems using the same speakers.
With the progress of components over the years , hearing hasn't evolving for the better but for each of us it is getting worse with age


What do we think?

 

[surveyor]

It has been proven that amps sound alike at set volume levels. But if you attempt to drive, for example, a set of Maggies with a Radio Shack Reciever to above the afore set levels, the RS Reciever is going to clip and distort. This won't happen with a better built and designed amplifier. With this in mind, my Postulate is that all amps definitely don't sound alike. The test is most arguably not using much of a statistical sample, and is bogus.

Kelly

 

[av_phile]

I totally agree with you there Surveyor. I've heard the same thing in one of our local showrooms driving difficult magnepans where the receiver is literally begging for more power it can't get enough. Often, the difference will become obvious when the amps are driven to their limits or when asked to deliver more power that it can't get. But at normal listening levels using typical speakers on well-made amplifiers, you really have to listen hard to detect any difference.

This hobby has so much room precisely for the diversity of gears available out there to suit every taste, prejudices, listening preferrences and wallet of differing hobbysts. So if somebody claims he hears a sonic superiority of one gear over another, and promptly gets it, good for him. He is indulging his VALUE judgements meant to give him listening satisfaction in a hobby that precisely aims for such an objective.

 

[surveyor]

Well put AV Phile.

Have a nice day!

Kelly

 

[NewYorkJosh]

Show me the proof.

It has been proven that amps sound alike at set volume levels.

Has it? I challenge anyone to provide me with such proof. I have recently finished a rant on this subject on a different thread:

http://www.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=27056#post27056

If I'm wrong I'd sincerely like to know.

 

[Unregistered]

Has it? I challenge anyone to provide me with such proof. I have recently finished a rant on this subject on a different thread:

http://www.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=27056#post27056

If I'm wrong I'd sincerely like to know.

I don't disagree with you!

cheers

 

[surveyor]

I don't disagree with you!

cheers

Sorry, I forgot to log on.

 

[b_panther_g]

Hello everyone,

It’s interesting to see that some people who hear night and day differences when reviewing products can't or won’t do it blind - even for $1,000,000. I didn’t know reviewers were paid so well…

For some interesting info about the sound of amps I suggest emailing Richard Clarke - a2000rich@aol.com. He runs the $10,000 AMP challenge. You can request the stats from him. Or you can read through this thread. But set aside some time – it’s long.

About the challenge…

There is a contest that pays 10 GRAND to anyone who can correctly identify one amp from another 24 out of 24 times in a blind test.

The rules, as listed in the above thread, were written for car amps. The person running the contest has opened the challenge up to home theater amps.

Basically here’s how it works (as I understand it)…

Take ANY two amps (Amp 1 and Amp 2).

The amps are tested to find their linear range (i.e. where they operate w/o distortion or clipping).

The linear range of the less powerful amp is selected (so that 10-watt tube amp isn’t driven into clipping while going up against the $10,000 SS amp)

Adjustments are made for the input sensitivity of each amp.

If necessary, the amps are EQ’ed to sound the same, apparently some amp makers boost/cut certain frequencies to give their amp a distinctive sound.

The person taking the challenge decides which amp gets EQ’ed. Yes, you can take a working flea market find, have it EQ'ed, and compare it to a Halcro.

The person taking the contest listens to ANY music they want for however long they want, but the guy running the contest requests that they keep it limited to a few hours.

The person taking the contest can use ANY available commercial speakers; as long as the speakers use cones and the amps being tested can power them.

There will be 2 listening sessions of 24 trials. If anyone can tell the two amps apart 100% of the time, they walk away with $10,000.​

Above you’ll find the email addy of the guy running the contest. Please contact him for the official rules.

BTW – No one has won as of yet. I’d think that anyone who can hear the difference between a $5000 amp and a $10,000 amp at sane listening levels would be all over this. They could compare a $15,000 amp vs. a Radio Shack special and walk away with the cash.

Later,
B

 

[Rob Babcock]

It's unbelievable how many people have already tried and failed in that test. Last time I checked, no one had even got much over 50% right. It's doubtful anyone will ever win that money, but many have tried.

NYJ, if you're honest in wanting to know, shoot WmAX a PM. He can hook you up with enough scientific papers, journals & test results to choke a horse. No dig at you, Chris- it's just that if someone wants empiracal data, you're da man.

 

[mtrycrafts]

It has been proven that amps sound alike at set volume levels. But if you attempt to drive, for example, a set of Maggies with a Radio Shack Reciever to above the afore set levels, the RS Reciever is going to clip and distort. This won't happen with a better built and designed amplifier. With this in mind, my Postulate is that all amps definitely don't sound alike. The test is most arguably not using much of a statistical sample, and is bogus.

Kelly

You mean if you drive an amp beyond its design limits it will sound different or maybe it shouldn't? Or what do you mean?

Do you have evidence to support your postulate? Oh, yes, you do have to keep it withing design limits.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I totally agree with you there Surveyor. I've heard the same thing in one of our local showrooms driving difficult magnepans where the receiver is literally begging for more power it can't get enough. Often, the difference will become obvious when the amps are driven to their limits or when asked to deliver more power that it can't get. But at normal listening levels using typical speakers on well-made amplifiers, you really have to listen hard to detect any difference.

You mean you try to drive a difficult load with amps that are not designed to do that? How silly of anyone to think you can drive any load with all amps. You do, it seems. By the way, how was the protocol set up? Bias controls in place? Levels matched of course?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Has it? I challenge anyone to provide me with such proof. I have recently finished a rant on this subject on a different thread:

http://www.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=27056#post27056

If I'm wrong I'd sincerely like to know.

What proof will you accept? What will satisfy you or change your mind?

Oh, you have convincing evidence that they sound different within their design limits?

 

[mtrycrafts]

There will be 2 listening sessions of 24 trials. If anyone can tell the two amps apart 100% of the time, they walk away with $10,000.[/INDENT]

Later,
B

While I agree with the protocols, I cannot agree with his statistical demand, totally unrational, 100% confidence level, 100% accuracy. Not real science.
The norm is 95% confidence level or above, never 100%.

 

[b_panther_g]

Posted by mtrycrafts
“While I agree with the protocols, I cannot agree with his statistical demand, totally unrational, 100% confidence level, 100% accuracy. Not real science. The norm is 95% confidence level or above, never 100%.”

I agree with you that 100% is high. But it’s not my contest, my rules, or my money.

I think he was gearing this contest to the people who claim to hear night and day differences between amps. Kind’a like how someone can hear night and day differences between a Bose Lifstyle System vs. M&K’s top of the line active 5.1 system.

Please understand…
I do not want to turn this into a debate about the rules of someone else’s contest. I simply posted about it for anyone interested in emailing Mr. Clarke about the stats. That said, I will not post anymore about it. If anyone has any question or concerns, please email Mr. Clarke directly.

Thanks for understanding.

Later,
P_B

 

[WmAx]

I believe this was later revised from the original rules. From memory, I believe that 2 sets of 10 trials, with an averaged score of 8/10 or better now qualifies as a win. But please double-check with Mr. Clark...

-Chris

Posted by mtrycrafts
“While I agree with the protocols, I cannot agree with his statistical demand, totally unrational, 100% confidence level, 100% accuracy. Not real science. The norm is 95% confidence level or above, never 100%.”

I agree with you that 100% is high. But it’s not my contest, my rules, or my money.

I think he was gearing this contest to the people who claim to hear night and day differences between amps. Kind’a like how someone can hear night and day differences between a Bose Lifstyle System vs. M&K’s top of the line active 5.1 system.

Please understand…
I do not want to turn this into a debate about the rules of someone else’s contest. I simply posted about it for anyone interested in emailing Mr. Clarke about the stats. That said, I will not post anymore about it. If anyone has any question or concerns, please email Mr. Clarke directly.

Thanks for understanding.

Later,
P_B

 

[mtrycrafts]

Posted by mtrycrafts
“While I agree with the protocols, I cannot agree with his statistical demand, totally unrational, 100% confidence level, 100% accuracy. Not real science. The norm is 95% confidence level or above, never 100%.”

I agree with you that 100% is high. But it’s not my contest, my rules, or my money.

I think he was gearing this contest to the people who claim to hear night and day differences between amps. Kind’a like how someone can hear night and day differences between a Bose Lifstyle System vs. M&K’s top of the line active 5.1 system.

Please understand…
I do not want to turn this into a debate about the rules of someone else’s contest. I simply posted about it for anyone interested in emailing Mr. Clarke about the stats. That said, I will not post anymore about it. If anyone has any question or concerns, please email Mr. Clarke directly.

Thanks for understanding.

Later,
P_B

Yes, thanks, I understand that this is not your challenge just pointing out so others may see the error

 

[ruadmaa]

It absolutely amazes me that all those big mouths that absolutely know they can tell the difference between a Krell and a Sony simply don't go take the test and collect their money!!! I can't imagine a more golden opportunity without having to put any cash on the table. Just go and collect your $10,000. Whats the matter fellows, those golden ears and amps not as good as you claim they are?

 

[Unregistered]

I totally agree with you there Surveyor. I've heard the same thing in one of our local showrooms driving difficult magnepans where the receiver is literally begging for more power it can't get enough. Often, the difference will become obvious when the amps are driven to their limits or when asked to deliver more power that it can't get. But at normal listening levels using typical speakers on well-made amplifiers, you really have to listen hard to detect any difference.

You mean you try to drive a difficult load with amps that are not designed to do that? How silly of anyone to think you can drive any load with all amps. You do, it seems. By the way, how was the protocol set up? Bias controls in place? Levels matched of course?

You are a real nutcase aren't you? I said our local showroom did just that - something I would never do. Afterall, only only idiot would use a receiver to drive difficult loads.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Make your case without name calling, "guest."

 

[mtrycrafts]

You are a real nutcase aren't you? I said our local showroom did just that - something I would never do. Afterall, only only idiot would use a receiver to drive difficult loads.

You mean there are no receivers out there to drive difficult loads? If that is the case, then you would need a stand alone amp that is rated for that load, and sufficient power to drive it to your desired volume.

Oh, are you practicing medicine with or without license? How much do you charge over the net service?