A/V Receiver and Speaker Pairing Question

[Bulldawg165]

Hey everyone! Great place you guys got here! I really enjoy reading the forums and learning more about this audiophile hobby. I'm currently a beginner/newbie with a quick question:

I have a Pioneer VSX 1021-K 7.1 channel A/V receiver. I'm currently using it in 2.1 as I haven't hooked up the center and surround channels yet. I'm looking to upgrade my speakers and have found some used PSB Image T65's for $700 that I think would be perfect for my needs (mostly 2 channel music listening). My only question is if they will work with my amp. The speakers are rated at 6 ohms nominal and 4 ohms minimum, but my receiver is only rated for speakers 6-16 ohms. What's the difference between nominal and minimum and will these speakers ruin my amp?

Thanks in advance everyone!

 

[j_garcia]

Generally you fry drivers before you damage the receiver, so it is a concern. 6 Ohms is less of a concern and if you cross them over appropriately to a sub, even less of a concern. Impedance varies depending on the frequency, so nominal refers to the average behavior across the range the speaker can reproduce. 4 minimum means they should not drop below that and not enough for them to be categorized as 4 Ohms nominal. My former 4 Ohm speakers dipped to 2.5 ohms minimum.

 

[Bulldawg165]

Well, what worries me the most is that when I listen to music I typically set my receiver to pure analog direct which would make the towers run full range, so from your explanation it seems like it's a near certainty that they will drop below 6 ohms for extended periods of time.

Currently I am using two Pioneer FS51 towers, which are rated at 6 ohms nominal with no minimum given, if that helps at all. (Yeah, these PSB's are going to be a HUUUUUUUGE step up for me )

Should I be worried at all? I've emailed PSB and am currently waiting to hear back.

 

[j_garcia]

It isn't just how low they dip, but how loud you listen, so it can be difficult to say for sure if it will be an issue and asking PSB is a good idea.

Looks like they've dropped preamp outputs from this AVR though as well, so if they are an issue, you won't be able to add an amp.

 

[zieglj01]

The T65 will dip to 4.45 ohms

HT Labs >
The Image T65's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.31/–3.88 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3dB point is at 50 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 39 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.45 ohms at 179 Hz and a phase angle of –33.52 degrees at 3.0 kHz.

 

[Bulldawg165]

Well, between what was stated above and the fine print I found on the pioneer product page (amazing that I couldn't actually find it in the manual), "The impedances indicated are actual values that speakers can present to an amplifier while playing back music. They do not refer to the nominal rated impedances of speakers you use."

That's from the product page here: VSX-1021-K - 7.1 Channel A/V Receiver | Pioneer Electronics USA

Looks like these speakers are a no go. That's a bummer because I was hoping for some affordable towers with good bass response and these seemed to fit the bill quite nicely. Oh well, I can always keep looking!

Thanks for the help!

 

[Bulldawg165]

I actually got an email back from Pioneer saying it would be ok unless I wanted to listen really loud for long periods of time, which I don't. I ended up getting the PSB Image T65's and they sound pretty dang good!

 

[3db]

I actually got an email back from Pioneer saying it would be ok unless I wanted to listen really loud for long periods of time, which I don't. I ended up getting the PSB Image T65's and they sound pretty dang good!

Congrats!!

 

[PENG]

I actually got an email back from Pioneer saying it would be ok unless I wanted to listen really loud for long periods of time, which I don't. I ended up getting the PSB Image T65's and they sound pretty dang good!

Those are very nice speakers, as someone mentioned already, whether your Pio can handle those 4 ohm speakers will mainly depend on how loud you listen. What is the volume level (-80 to +12 for that unit) when you listen to the loudest you can tolerate and still enjoy the music?

 

[Bulldawg165]

Those are very nice speakers, as someone mentioned already, whether your Pio can handle those 4 ohm speakers will mainly depend on how loud you listen. What is the volume level (-80 to +12 for that unit) when you listen to the loudest you can tolerate and still enjoy the music?

Hmmmm, that's a good question. Do you just mean what the number is on the receiver display when I adjust the volume, such as " -20 db"? If so then -20 is my best guess but I'll check tonight and let you know for sure

 

[PENG]

Hmmmm, that's a good question. Do you just mean what the number is on the receiver display when I adjust the volume, such as " -20 db"? If so then -20 is my best guess but I'll check tonight and let you know for sure

If you typically have it at -20 dB then you have plenty of power on hand for your need even for your 4 ohm speakers. If you have to push it up to say -15 dB most of the time, then I would have to ask a few more questions such as your speaker trim level in case MCACC (assuming if ran it and use it) might have done something to it, and/or you may have some unusually high output media players that could force you to set your volume lower than normal.

Again, sometimes people assume 4 ohm speakers automatically mean the need for big amps but it is just not that simple. It it was that simple then a lot of HTIAB mini speakers (lots of them are 4 ohms) would have been killing those entry level AVRs that come with them on a daily basis.

 

[Bulldawg165]

If you typically have it at -20 dB then you have plenty of power on hand for your need even for your 4 ohm speakers. If you have to push it up to say -15 dB most of the time, then I would have to ask a few more questions such as your speaker trim level in case MCACC (assuming if ran it and use it) might have done something to it, and/or you may have some unusually high output media players that could force you to set your volume lower than normal.

Again, sometimes people assume 4 ohm speakers automatically mean the need for big amps but it is just not that simple. It it was that simple then a lot of HTIAB mini speakers (lots of them are 4 ohms) would have been killing those entry level AVRs that come with them on a daily basis.

Well, I was hoping to crank up the volume last night and give you a more definitive answer but I got home from work too late. When I quoted you at -20 that was my best guess for when I listen to it REALLY loud. I've actually noticed that, compared to my Pioneer FS51's, the my receiver usually reads a solid 5-8 db lower at the same volume. Normal listening I don't really get louder than -30db and that's only for a short period of time.

I did calibrate it with the MCACC, but when I was quoting you the -20db that is when I was listening to a CD on my Marantz CD5004 and I set the receiver to pure analog direct which doesn't use the MCACC

 

[PENG]

Well, I was hoping to crank up the volume last night and give you a more definitive answer but I got home from work too late. When I quoted you at -20 that was my best guess for when I listen to it REALLY loud. I've actually noticed that, compared to my Pioneer FS51's, the my receiver usually reads a solid 5-8 db lower at the same volume. Normal listening I don't really get louder than -30db and that's only for a short period of time.

I did calibrate it with the MCACC, but when I was quoting you the -20db that is when I was listening to a CD on my Marantz CD5004 and I set the receiver to pure analog direct which doesn't use the MCACC

Well then your Pioneer is not your bottleneck and you can just focus on enjoying music/movies. I do believe it is good to have much more amp power than you need but that's only if you have lots of extra money left after spending on things you can immediately benefit from, such as speakers, room treatment, better quality source meda, subwoofers etc.

 

[Bulldawg165]

Well then your Pioneer is not your bottleneck and you can just focus on enjoying music/movies. I do believe it is good to have much more amp power than you need but that's only if you have lots of extra money left after spending on things you can immediately benefit from, such as speakers, room treatment, better quality source meda, subwoofers etc.

Yes, a good sub (and later duals) is next on my list for sure. Room treatment may be a good idea too considering one wall is a solid glass sliding door and half of another wall is solid mirror and better still is that I have vaulted ceilings. Ha!