A question for an EE - Surge protector joule ratings - how much is enough

[TLS Guy]

I do know. he has way too many opinions, most are abysmally incorrect.


Actually, I use niobium titanium at 1.8K and 4.5K, I use niobium tin at same temps, while up to about 9K it's still working well and carries a lot of current, and I use HTS from American superconductor at liquid nitrogen temperatures, 77K.

So, not quite absolute zero...but close...slightly colder that what a pair of thermal underwear would help with..

My post is the illustrates the correct physics of the situation combined with a logical approach to the problem.

Your reply is rude and sarcastic. You need to add to the debate and raise sensible issues about the physics I have outlined and the logic derived therefrom. Your reply makes you look like the worst troll.

 

[jneutron]

My post is the illustrates the correct physics of the situation combined with a logical approach to the problem.

Your reply is rude and sarcastic. You need to add to the debate and raise sensible issues about the physics I have outlined and the logic derived therefrom. Your reply makes you look like the worst troll.

Not rude, nor sarcastic. I tried to keep it light, and I had no intent on raining on your parade. Since you did not have the maturity to understand that, I will comment, and therefore rain on your parade.

Your quote has errors in understanding. Your grounding solution has errors in understanding. Your understanding of an inline surge protector has errors in understanding. Your statements about a whole house surge protector has errors in understanding.

And then you rattle on about conductors being cooled to absolute zero having no resistance.. Well, guess what. I work with superconductors for a living, and your statement there has errors.

I chose to simply correct your remark about that.

So...your errors: get out your umbrella. (it didn't have to be this way)

So once you get a high voltage surge loose in the house it is searching for grounds all over the place in the most destructive of fashions.

Surges do not get "loose", now your sounding like W-dude.

Surges are of two types, line to line/neutral, and induced potential rise as a consequence of a near strike causing a ground float.

A whole house protector has no ability to control a whole house float. None. All the whole house can do is temper line to line and line to neutral excessive voltage. That can come as either an AC overvoltage, or as a transient spike. An AC overvoltage of say, 200 or 300 volts AC from the street cannot be tempered by any realistic device because residential feeds are capable of well beyond 10 kiloamps bolted fault current. If you examine your load panel, you will find it has a fault current rating of probably 100 kiloamps. That kind of fault current into a simple whole house device for several line cycles will breach the containment of the device...blow up. The best you can hope for in that situation, is that the mains breaker pops.

Transients are energy based, the joules you (correctly) speak about. A whole house suppressor will assist in tempering transients, and because of the speed of transients, the whole house can indeed hold the voltage down temporarily, typically between 350 to 400 volts.

You need to get the surge to ground by the lowest resistance possible before it gets to your house wiring.

News flash. An overvoltage that is at your load panel is already IN your house wiring. What happens during the event, what potentials are raised, that is the important thing.

An inline surge protector is "feel good" engineering and far too late in the day to be effective. Its path back to true ground is far too tortuous.

Again, you're clueless in your understandings. Protection by surge suppression is a rather well known engineering concept, your statements set that back years.

The best line induced surge suppression for residential use is the two prong assult...tempering the level at the load panel using a whole house, and then using a lower level point of use suppressor to limit the branch circuit current and voltage.

Now I have been on about this before, but a proper engineering plan to mitigate surges starts with your home engineering. Most homes have pathetic grounding. In fact unless the owner has thought about the above physics and engineered it himself, you can be certain your panel grounding is substandard.

The national electric code is far and above the best (and only) methodology that homeowners should use. The fact that some wannabe internet poser such as you makes absurd statements such as the one above should be meaningless to intelligent people. Failure to follow code is just stupid. Using what you present as "physics" is dangerous because you do not understand the concepts.

Now, let's address your fancy shmancy hi falutin grounding to end all grounding.

I placed three large diameter seven foot copper grounding rods within 20 feet of the panel. You should not go over 20 feet, as even if you use multiple strands of heavy copper the resistance will be too high. I use multiple strands of stout copper wire to the three rods, which are interconnected.

I have a system set up to irrigate the grounding rods in dry periods.

What you have done is try to increase the earthing conductance. While it seems fancy, what you have done has absolutely NOTHING to do with line surges. Do you understand what "nothing" means? Your scheme may enhance the earthing's ability to temper a ground float as a consequence of a direct strike, but the earthing rods have nothing to do with line to line or line to neutral surges.

I have a whole house surge protector at the panel.

Which is great. It will not protect against a nearby strike, and it will fail in the event of a real surge, but for transients it is excellent. The problem is, it is probably rated at 350 to 450 volts clamp, so downstream devices may require additional point of use suppression down to 330 volts.

Of note is the fact that you have totally neglected loop induced ground transients which commonly kill multiple equipment setups, especially HT setups with the added cable input. Earthing schemes cannot in any way address that, nor can a whole house suppressor. Only a point of use multiport device is capable of tempering induction loop voltages.

The bottom line is that you have to think this through as a total engineering system.

This is indeed the only really accurate thing you stated. Yet, your engineering input (as it were), is completely lacking. You've very little understanding of the topic, yet that did not stop you.

Now, is that more like the response you wanted?? Actual engineering, as opposed to your ridiculous diatribe and followup idiotic statement??

My advice to you is: think first, review what you write, then post.

Do not post before you think.

jn

 

[westom]

Darkwing_Duck. A majority do not know how surge protection works. Information mostly from hearsay, retail salesmen, and advertising. Some will then post "rude and sarcastic" to avoid admitting how easily they were manipulated by myths, spin, and advertising.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates - the physics. Earth ground (which is completely different from the safety ground in a receptacle) is the only component that always exists in every protection systems. Some protection systems do not even have protectors. But every 'effective' protection system always has (and all four words are significant) single point earth ground. Where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate.

An electric utility demonstrates what TLS Guy discusses. Demonstrated in that Tech Tip are good, bad, and ugly (preferred, wrong, and right) solutions at:
Tech Tip 08 -Duke Energy

This 'single point earth ground' concept is routine in any facility that cannot have damage. Protectors that do not claim to protect from destructive surges will not discuss earth ground. Especially will not discuss what Duke Energy demonstrates.

jneutron will do what he does best. Misconstrue, spin, confuse, mock, and lie because, well, I don't know why one wastes so much bandwidth trying to subvert science while ridiculing the fewer who actually learned this stuff. Unfortunately, many believe insults rather than notice the attacker has no facts and numbers. If jneutron states it, then suspect it is for self-serving gratification; to keep you confused.

"So once you get a high voltage surge loose in the house it is searching for grounds all over the place in the most destructive of fashions." Useful replies provide underlying facts and numbers. Perspectives (ie numbers), such as low impedance and a protector rated at least 50,000 amps, demonstrate knowledge from the fewer who even did this stuff decades ago.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

jneutron will do what he does best. Misconstrue, spin, confuse, mock, and lie because, well, I don't know why one wastes so much bandwidth trying to subvert science while ridiculing the fewer who actually learned this stuff. Unfortunately, many believe insults rather than notice the attacker has no facts and numbers. If jneutron states it, then suspect it is for self-serving gratification; to keep you confused.

...

Oh, boy, you are way off base here. If you would know 1 micron, no, my fault, 1 pico or femto of what he knows about this you would be a genius.
But, don't bother to understand his past responses back to you or any of his posts as you are not able.

 

[jneutron]

jneutron will do what he does best.

What jneutron does best is design and implement wiring and protection for machines from a half mile circumference up. Machines with beyond the state of the art components you cannot even pronounce, nevermind understand.

You continue to cut and paste incompatible, incoherent tidbits of the work of others with absolutely no comprehension of what you are speaking about. You can't even get what you post correct.

You're schtick is that of a 12 year old engineer wannabe. We all get it.

jn

ps..Actually, I apologize to all 12 year olds for that.. I give tours to groups ranging from ivy league professorial staff to 6th graders, the 6th graders impress me more than your ramblings.

 

[Irvrobinson]

ps..Actually, I apologize to all 12 year olds for that.. I give tours to groups ranging from ivy league professorial staff to 6th graders, the 6th graders impress me more than your ramblings.

Thank goodness! I was going get insulted!

 

[TLS Guy]

Not rude, nor sarcastic. I tried to keep it light, and I had no intent on raining on your parade. Since you did not have the maturity to understand that, I will comment, and therefore rain on your parade.

Your quote has errors in understanding. Your grounding solution has errors in understanding. Your understanding of an inline surge protector has errors in understanding. Your statements about a whole house surge protector has errors in understanding.

And then you rattle on about conductors being cooled to absolute zero having no resistance.. Well, guess what. I work with superconductors for a living, and your statement there has errors.

I chose to simply correct your remark about that.

So...your errors: get out your umbrella. (it didn't have to be this way)


Surges do not get "loose", now your sounding like W-dude.

Surges are of two types, line to line/neutral, and induced potential rise as a consequence of a near strike causing a ground float.

A whole house protector has no ability to control a whole house float. None. All the whole house can do is temper line to line and line to neutral excessive voltage. That can come as either an AC overvoltage, or as a transient spike. An AC overvoltage of say, 200 or 300 volts AC from the street cannot be tempered by any realistic device because residential feeds are capable of well beyond 10 kiloamps bolted fault current. If you examine your load panel, you will find it has a fault current rating of probably 100 kiloamps. That kind of fault current into a simple whole house device for several line cycles will breach the containment of the device...blow up. The best you can hope for in that situation, is that the mains breaker pops.

Transients are energy based, the joules you (correctly) speak about. A whole house suppressor will assist in tempering transients, and because of the speed of transients, the whole house can indeed hold the voltage down temporarily, typically between 350 to 400 volts.


News flash. An overvoltage that is at your load panel is already IN your house wiring. What happens during the event, what potentials are raised, that is the important thing.

Again, you're clueless in your understandings. Protection by surge suppression is a rather well known engineering concept, your statements set that back years.

The best line induced surge suppression for residential use is the two prong assult...tempering the level at the load panel using a whole house, and then using a lower level point of use suppressor to limit the branch circuit current and voltage.


The national electric code is far and above the best (and only) methodology that homeowners should use. The fact that some wannabe internet poser such as you makes absurd statements such as the one above should be meaningless to intelligent people. Failure to follow code is just stupid. Using what you present as "physics" is dangerous because you do not understand the concepts.

Now, let's address your fancy shmancy hi falutin grounding to end all grounding.



What you have done is try to increase the earthing conductance. While it seems fancy, what you have done has absolutely NOTHING to do with line surges. Do you understand what "nothing" means? Your scheme may enhance the earthing's ability to temper a ground float as a consequence of a direct strike, but the earthing rods have nothing to do with line to line or line to neutral surges.

Which is great. It will not protect against a nearby strike, and it will fail in the event of a real surge, but for transients it is excellent. The problem is, it is probably rated at 350 to 450 volts clamp, so downstream devices may require additional point of use suppression down to 330 volts.

Of note is the fact that you have totally neglected loop induced ground transients which commonly kill multiple equipment setups, especially HT setups with the added cable input. Earthing schemes cannot in any way address that, nor can a whole house suppressor. Only a point of use multiport device is capable of tempering induction loop voltages.


This is indeed the only really accurate thing you stated. Yet, your engineering input (as it were), is completely lacking. You've very little understanding of the topic, yet that did not stop you.

Now, is that more like the response you wanted?? Actual engineering, as opposed to your ridiculous diatribe and followup idiotic statement??

My advice to you is: think first, review what you write, then post.

Do not post before you think.

jn

That's a load of folderal to obscure some basic principles which are always valid.

First as I stated there is no perfect solution to this problem just what is practical and cost effective.

By code neutral and ground are bonded at the panel. So at the panel ground and neutral are the same.

Voltage will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance to ground. So the creating the lowest possible resistance to ground is always the place to start and the place to put the path of least resistance to ground is at the panel.

My UPS units also have sure protection. However the instruction that came with my whole house surge protector for some reason discouraged the use of in line surge protector devices.

The main reason I created that uber ground was to quieten my system to the maximum. I have a belt and braces star cluster ground system described in a paper by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. This system and the ground keep my complex system very quiet.

 

[Speedskater]

Member 'jneutron' knows what he is writing about, just ask Gene DellaSala. But it often takes a magic decoding ring to understand it. He sometimes writes in engineering talk, other times it may be scientist talk or then again disk jockey/soundman talk. Often in a single post he can switch writing styles or times he tangles recent and distant past posts. While it may be a struggle to understand just what he really means, he is almost always correct.

 

[Speedskater]

That's a load of folderal to obscure some basic principles which are always valid.
..............................................
Voltage will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance to ground. So the creating the lowest possible resistance to ground is always the place to start and the place to put the path of least resistance to ground is at the panel.
...........................................

'Voltage' is a measurement between two points.

What I think you meant was:
'Current' will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance to ground.
But that is incorrect!

'Current' will take all possible paths to return to it's source. (in the case it's that big power company transformer outside your house)
The amount of current that will take any path is inversely proportional to the impedance of that path.

We use impedance because the power line is low frequency AC and lightning is high frequency AC.

Power line current has little interest in the dirt around your home.

 

[jneutron]

That's a load of folderal to obscure some basic principles which are always valid.

Had you used basic principles correctly, you would have something to stand on. You didn't, you don't.

By code neutral and ground are bonded at the panel. So at the panel ground and neutral are the same.

While correct, it wasn't a part of the discussion. Your means of saying "look over there, a squirrel.."

Voltage will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance to ground. So the creating the lowest possible resistance to ground is always the place to start and the place to put the path of least resistance to ground is at the panel.

As speedskater pointed out, it's current that will. But you do not have enough understanding in that as well. Current seeks the path of least impedance.

You need to first understand the simple concepts. It's obvious you don't.

My UPS units also have sure protection. However the instruction that came with my whole house surge protector for some reason discouraged the use of in line surge protector devices.

For the last two decades, there has been a high level debate over how to use multiple devices. That's because spark gap units which are the lowest conductance devices when on require a threshold voltage which is below the whole house units. So there was no cascading of "benefits" as it were, one would stop the other...not good.

Use of a more robust whole house at 400 v clamp at the panel with a cascaded lower voltage multiport at the end items is the proper way to cascade protection. The multiport is required for induced near strike voltages.

The main reason I created that uber ground was to quieten my system to the maximum. I have a belt and braces star cluster ground system described in a paper by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. This system and the ground keep my complex system very quiet.

And oddly enough, if that contrivance helped quiet your system, then you have other more severe issues you are clueless about.

jn

 

[westom]

'Current' will take all possible paths to return to it's source. (in the case it's that big power company transformer outside your house)

A power company transformer is not a source of surges. And is not where the outgoing current goes to. But then many have no knowledge of relevant concepts such as longitudinal and transverse currents. Some here clearly have no grasp of essential concepts. They have posted plenty of denials without any EE concepts and no numbers. No numbers identify claims only from hearsay. Meanwhile a surge current obviously is not returned to the transformer.

A transformer’s earth ground defines a homeowner's 'primary' protection layer. A 1970s IEEE paper defines protection; currents connected to and absorbed by earth. A worst case 100,000 amps surge means 40,000 amps goes to earth (if the transformer is properly earthed). Another 30,000 amps goes to earth by other paths. And 30,000 amps is incoming to the house.

Where do 30,000 amps go if all but invited inside? It goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances. A properly earthed 'whole house' protector is rated (at 50,000 amps) for and connects low impedance to earth. Then that current and hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly in earth. Why do naysayers never discuss these numbers? Why so many denials without any discussion of hundreds of thousands of joules? Denials are chock full of accusation while devoid of any electrical facts – and no numbers.

A 'whole house' protector, with an incoming current from AC mains, connects that current outgoing and harmlessly to earth. What does an adjacent protector do? Incoming from AC mains. Outgoing where? Sometimes destructively to earth via any nearby appliances. Sometimes it will earth destructively through a nearby appliance not even connected to that protector. Protection is always – as in always – about how that current connect to earth. And about where energy dissipates.

More numbers from professionals. Well over 99% of protection is done by earthing - either via a wire (the better solution) or by a ‘whole house’ protector. An adjacent (point of connection) protector adds maybe another 0.2% protection. Those numbers also from IEEE Standards. Cascade means adding another 0.2% protection. And only if an earthed ‘whole house’ protector exists.

Of course, protection can be compromised if the earth connection is not low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet'). Why do plug-in protectors not discuss impedance, earth ground, or where energy is absorbed? Plug-in protectors have no earth ground due concepts such as impedance. But again, if one cannot say where hundreds of thousands of joules are absorbed, then one is only reciting advertising parables and hearsay. Protection is always about the path that thousands of amps take to earth. A path that does not pass through any appliance.

Another IEEE paper is blunt. If a 'whole house' protector is not properly earthed, then plug-in (point of connection) protectors may make appliance damage easier. Effective protectors are never damaged by a surge. Dr Martzloff’s conclusion is blunt:

Conclusion:
1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.

Engineers who do this stuff worry about earth ground - not a protector. The path of that current. And numbers such as hundreds of thousands of joules, 50,000 or 100,000 amps, and low impedance that means a 'less than 10 foot' connection.

OP asked about effective protection. Easy. Either a protector connects energy low impedance to what does protection – single point earth ground. Or that protector only claims to protect from transients that typically do no damage. Easy because these concepts were well understood even 100 years ago. Then one can post where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.

A surge current obviously was not going back to the transformer. That mistake says basic and relevant EE concepts (even defined by longitudinal and transverse) are unknown.

Let's be clear about another fact. jneutron defined himself as a lineman. Lineman need not know and are not taught basic concepts relevant to protection. His lack of knowledge made obvious in every post devoid of numbers. He knows how to be convincing by inslults. His technical knowledge even of something relevant like impedance is obviously lacking. Otherwise he would say in every post where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. He cannot. Those concepts are not taught to linemen. So he never posts numbers. No numbers is a first indication of lies.

 

[TLS Guy]

Had you used basic principles correctly, you would have something to stand on. You didn't, you don't.


While correct, it wasn't a part of the discussion. Your means of saying "look over there, a squirrel.."


As speedskater pointed out, it's current that will. But you do not have enough understanding in that as well. Current seeks the path of least impedance.

You need to first understand the simple concepts. It's obvious you don't.

For the last two decades, there has been a high level debate over how to use multiple devices. That's because spark gap units which are the lowest conductance devices when on require a threshold voltage which is below the whole house units. So there was no cascading of "benefits" as it were, one would stop the other...not good.

Use of a more robust whole house at 400 v clamp at the panel with a cascaded lower voltage multiport at the end items is the proper way to cascade protection. The multiport is required for induced near strike voltages.


And oddly enough, if that contrivance helped quiet your system, then you have other more severe issues you are clueless about.

jn

You know as well as I do that voltage drives current so you are splitting hairs to be silly.

Everyone with any experience knows full well that the first job in protection is shunting the voltage driven current to ground as fast as possible.

Any by the way, my grounding system allowed me to use the grounding blocks on my satellite system and FM aerial, without the system roaring like a banshee, which it did before construction that carefully planed grounding system.

Here are the grounding block, tied to the grounding rods along with the grounding of thee fiber cable.

 

[Speedskater]

'westom' just what is the source of surges?

 

[westom]

'westom' just what is the source of surges?

Some Asus computer boards report a surge. That is low voltage. A USB port can report a surge. That is excessive current - in milliamps. Some surges are created by power cycling appliances. That is noise. Restoration of power on the grid is also called a surge. That is a large current powering all appliances simultaneously created a slowly rising voltage - potentially harmful to motorized appliances and ideal for electronics.

A completely different and typically destructive surge current can be created by a stray car hitting a utility pole, grid switching, a squirrel, lineman mistake, or lightning. These are often called common-mode currents. Protection means all should not cause damage. Lightning is the typical example.

Protection from lightning means protection from those other typically destructive current sources. That was discussed here.

How a typically destructive surge does damage was originally introduced in elementary school science. And explained here in four paragraphs that discuss protection of a structure and of appliances. In all cases, protection from these anomalies (called a surge) is provided by earth ground. Where energy is absorbed. Protection is about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. And that the current's path is not inside a structure.

Protection of two interconnected structures is demonstrated in a Tech Note "The Need for Coordinated Protection". Even incoming underground wires can carry destructive currents into a building.

How earthing is installed/upgraded to provide this protection is described in Earthing guide for surge protection.

 

[jneutron]

A power company transformer is not a source of surges.

You are clueless. Learn what a surge is, what types of surges there are, and how they are generated.

80 to 90% of what you write is pure garbage.

You are not an engineer. You do not understand the concepts. You don't read what you link to. Anybody who believes what you write is being led down the garden path.

Let's be clear about another fact. jneutron defined himself as a lineman. Lineman need not know and are not taught basic concepts relevant to protection.

BZZZZZZZZZZT. Nice try Hans, wanna go to double jeopardy where the prizes double?

As I said, you are clueless.

Try again..

jn

 

[jneutron]

You know as well as I do that voltage drives current so you are splitting hairs to be silly.

Splitting hairs? Again, you are demonstrating that you have learned this via the internet. Be very careful who you learn from, as people like W-dude take many like you down erroneous paths.

In terms of atmospheric flash, like lightning, the voltage gradient is what drives the bolt and the current. At the leading tip of the strike, the gradient exceeds the field which strips the electrons off the molecules. For dry nitrogen, that is 70 volts per thousandth of an inch. So, for that instance, it is the voltage gradient, not the voltage per se.

For an inductor which has a current flowing in it, when it is disconnected from the current source, the inductor will try to maintain the current, and it does so by flipping the terminal voltage and making the voltage very high as a consequence. That is a case where current drives the voltage, which is exactly the opposite of what you just stated and that I was "splitting hairs".

That is exactly what causes line transients with things like motors and transformers, AC compressors, HVAC air moving fans.. When the contactors release, all energy stored with the magnetic field of the device will try to flash over the opening contacts...that is the transient type that whole house and point of use suppressors are designed to suppress.

So there are 4 things that can attack your home stuff. 1. Line transients of limited energy such as contactor hash... 2. line voltage surges where the actual AC voltage rises well above the normal 120 volts (170 peak) voltages (the utility can do this if their 3 phase system becomes very unbalanced, for example if a car takes down a residential pole, and the momentary drop there causes a rise elsewhere before their breakers trip) 3. lightning induced surges hitting the utility wires, earth near the utilities, and 4, loop induced voltages resulting from a near strike.

You really don't understand this engineering stuff, but that's quite alright, you don't have to. Trying to support erroneous ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING concepts in a debate with an electrical engineer with quite a few years of undergrad and graduate under his belt, and 30 years of experience doing this stuff in real life DESPITE you not having the education to support your assertions is not exactly a well thought out plan.

I hope you had a plan "B".

Everyone with any experience knows full well that the first job in protection is shunting the voltage driven current to ground as fast as possible.

It's not quite that simple. For lightning, it is important to provide a direct path for the current, AND making sure that the transient potential of all devices connected to the system is the same for all devices. If a HT setup has a cable connected to it that does not follow the same path in the walls of the house as the AC power, that loop can create a voltage as a consequence of a nearby strike, and it will take out either a tv or receiver or cable box. EVEN if it's bonded at the service entrance.

If you had lots of noise which went away when you tied all the grounds together, that may have been caused by the ground loop picking everything up.

I do have a question on your setup there. What is that thing on the right of the block? Is that a gas feed?

I ask because of the following: My wife and I were in a kitchen of a house when a storm passed over. The bolt that hit the house next door (50 feet or so away), scared the livin daylights outta us. The house had a fireplace which was modded to include a gas insert, and they put a metal pipe up the flue to a metal cap. The bolt hit the cap (bypassing trees less that 10 feet away and 20 feet taller), then tried to follow the gas flex line to ground. Unfortunately, the flex line had a big loop in the living area, and the bolt found it easier to bypass the loop because of it's added inductance, thereby going flex pipe to flex pipe. In doing so, it punctured the flex and ignited the gas. Luckily, the owner came out from the city a day earlier and was sitting in that living room reading the paper. He averted the house burning down.

You have a grounding system which provides a potential path all the way to the cable block, but then nowhere. A bolt might find it easier to ionize a path to that pipe right next to it rather than to the grounds you went out of your way to make. So I'd recommend that you call in a professional to look it over, and you'd be really well served to tell that pro that some internet "yahoo" (me) thinks it might be a concern..

Better safe than sorry.

jn

ps...TLS, I sent you a PM.

 

[jneutron]

Thought I should also mention...

Another case 2: If the neutral feeding your house should disconnect for any reason, then the two hot legs of your house will have a voltage that depends on the distribution of load within your house. If you have for example, a fridge and a 100 watt bulb on one leg and just a 100 watt bulb on the other, and lose the neutral while just the bulbs were on, they would continue to illuminate equally. But when the fridge tried to cycle, the bulb on it's side would go dark, and the other would blow out after getting extremely bright. Trusting the earthing rod to support the current imbalance is not a good thing, and the water pipe connection may or may not be in good shape, it is after all, typically in the worst environment possible for connections.

In the last 10 years, I've only spotted two instances where the neutral to the building was broken. One at the wires near the transformer, and one where the lines attach to the house. For the first, the lights were flickering both brighter and dimmer, so the plumbing ground was not good as well.

For this scenario, a whole house suppressor may or may not die, but with luck it would take the mains down.

Edit: YO, W-Dude: I see your still quoting Martzloff out of context. When are you going to actually learn this stuff? It's been what, 5 years??

It looks like my grand-kids are going to learn this before you.


And I don't have grand-kids yet..

jn

 

[westom]

You are clueless. Learn what a surge is, what types of surges there are, and how they are generated.

The naive post insults. Demonstrate little if any electrical knowledge. And again, no numbers based in engineering concepts.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Hundreds of thousands of joules (a significant engineering number) must be absorbed somewhere. Either destructively inside or harmlessly outside in earth. If every wire inside an incoming cable connects low impedance to single point earth ground, then a destructive current is not inside the building. Damage averted. The only solution found in every facility that cannot have damage. Some protected facilities do not even have protectors. But every protected facility always has essential earth ground electrodes. Protection is always about where energy dissipates.

To increase protection, protectors are located distant from electronics. For example, telcos locate their protectors up to 50 meters distant from a $multi-million switching computer. Low impedance to earth means better protection. Higher impedance (separation) between protector and electronics also increases protection. More concepts proven by over 100 years of experience. And a number that defines why telco COs suffer about 100 surges per thunderstorm (another engineering number) without damage.

A connection to earth must be low impedance (not low resistance). Some protectors have no earth ground connection. These protectors mount directly on an earth ground electrode. Zero feet to earth (no connecting wire) means better protection. But in every case, protection is about a low impedance connection to and quality of earth ground. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps because surges must not even damage a protector. Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Mockery and insults never changed over 100 years of well proven science.

Posting science fiction, fears, or how an inductor works only confuses the OP with irrelevant complexities. Even loop induced surges are only popular urban myths. Protection is always about the current path and where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Protection was always that simple.

 

[jneutron]

Posting science fiction, fears, or how an inductor works only confuses the OP with irrelevant complexities. Even loop induced surges are only popular urban myths.

As I said, my grandchildren will learn this before you do. In fact, when they are delivered, they will already be ahead of you in actual knowledge and understanding. That is how bad you are.

The best thing anyone can do whenever you post, is to point out your lack of knowledge. In the five years or so I've seen your drivel, you have only copied and pasted previous sentences, terribly out of context as well.

Leave the engineering to engineers. Get your high school equivalency, get on with your life.

The only good thing about your posts is that it allows all others to see exactly how little you know. Plasma channel propagation, voltage gradients, ionization, faraday's law of induction, even how an inductor works may be science fiction to you, but people like myself do this for a living.

You troll for a living. Your posts are humor, plain and simple. They make me laugh. You are known throughout the internet as the childish troll. Not my words, by the way, but pretty much everybody who reads you eventually understands that. Me, while I get a good laugh from your attempts, I do worry that somebody who doesn't know you might believe your drivel and kill themselves.

Luckily, this forum actually states your status here as "westom a forum troll idiot that just begs for attention".. I'm happy that you are correctly identified straight up, at least here.

jn

 

[fuzz092888]

Well you can't say this thread isn't lively