A question for an EE - Surge protector joule ratings - how much is enough

[Darkwing_duck]

Panamax M4300-PM Power Manager Review | Audioholics

This is infuriating. Here is a Panamax M4300-PM Power Manager that audioholics has reviewed. It's obvious from this thread that the position of surge protection is not to invest in tiny boxes but to find a whole house surge protector. Fine, I can understand that.

But.....

Why would an audioholics review promote the use of this device as a 'buffer' between the outlet and electronics plugged into it? In other words, why are they advocating a single device such as this as a surge protector to protect your gear from lightning strikes and the like and NOT advocate a whole house surge protector as well? ...." More importantly, however, it gives you something between your expensive AV equipment and the wall, so that if you ever encounter lightning or any other power surge event, something other than that new LCD or plasma display can take the hit. " You know if the true stance on equipment protection is not a single device but a whole house surge protector why would a website that is devoted to pursuing the truth in video and audio support this devices' mild form of surge protection? It's buffering capability?

 

[westom]

Let's look at a high end offering from monster.
Signature Series™ Home Theater Reference HTPS 7000 MKII PowerSource with Dual Balanced Pure Power™ Transformers and Clean Power™ Stage 5
features exclusive Monster® Dual Balanced Pure Power™ circuitry for the lowest noise, best picture, and sound performance.
"combines the world's finest filter circuitry designed by Richard Marsh, uses triple shielded transformers with uniquely switchable balanced or isolated settings that will subdue any noise or ground"

Some sold speaker cables with one end marked for an amplifier and another for the speaker. Then claim if those connections are reversed, then sound will be subverted. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for even higher prices. Monster would mark $7 speaker wires with speaker and amplifier ends. And sell it for something like $70.

A power strip protector sells in WalMart for $10. So Monster sells an equivalent circuit inside a more expensive box for about $100. Radiio Shack recently discounted them for about $45. Again, Monster sells an equivalent product for even higher profits.

Where are spec numbers that say that "Dual Balanced Pure Power" is anything but phooey? For example, how many dB of noise does it filter for each frequency? Where is the %THD number that defines clearer power? Why did they forget to mention that a transformer is already inside electronics already doing isolation? What does balance power accomplish? Where are any specification numbers for Monster?

Why would Monster provide relevant numbers? Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling a similar product for even higher profits.

What happens to that 'clean' power? First 120 volts is converted to well over 300 volts. Then converted to radio frequency spikes. IOW first the power supply makes 'clean' or 'dirty' power into 'dirtiest' power. The superior filters convert that 'intentionally made dirtiest' power into rock solid and stable, low voltage DC power. Anything a Monster might do is completely undone. Then filters superior to what Monster offers 'cleans' even 'dirtier' power. Why spend $hundreds for Monster? Because Monster wants profits. The product be damned.

Monster has a long history of identifying a mythical cure. Then marketing a similar product for even larger profits. Unfortunately many who do reviews speculate about quality by, for example, observing the case. Into the case (and not into the electronics) is where Monster puts more money. To market to many who never demand what is more important ... such as numeric specifications.

Where is the %THD number? How many dBs for each decade? What does it do for harmonics? For an open neutral? For sags? For power factor? For polarity reversal? How does it cure a missing safety ground? Somehow it does some balanced power ... when power must enter the appliance unbalanced for major human safety reasons? What good is 'clean' power when electronics only make that power even 'dirtier' (radio frequency spikes)? Then superior filters 'clean' that 'dirtiest' power. Monster will never answer these questions.

They are selling to people who believe a 'magic box' will solve all anomalies. If Monster is selling an equivalent product, then suspect other similar products are also bogus. No replacement exists for reviews that verify each of so many specification numbers. Those are rarely provided because so many eyes automatically glaze over with each number.

 

[Darkwing_duck]

Some sold speaker cables with one end marked for an amplifier and another for the speaker. Then claim if those connections are reversed, then sound will be subverted. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for even higher prices. Monster would mark $7 speaker wires with speaker and amplifier ends. And sell it for something like $70.

A power strip protector sells in WalMart for $10. So Monster sells an equivalent circuit inside a more expensive box for about $100. Radiio Shack recently discounted them for about $45. Again, Monster sells an equivalent product for even higher profits.

Where are spec numbers that say that "Dual Balanced Pure Power" is anything but phooey? For example, how many dB of noise does it filter for each frequency? Where is the %THD number that defines clearer power? Why did they forget to mention that a transformer is already inside electronics already doing isolation? What does balance power accomplish? Where are any specification numbers for Monster?

Why would Monster provide relevant numbers? Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling a similar product for even higher profits.

What happens to that 'clean' power? First 120 volts is converted to well over 300 volts. Then converted to radio frequency spikes. IOW first the power supply makes 'clean' or 'dirty' power into 'dirtiest' power. The superior filters convert that 'intentionally made dirtiest' power into rock solid and stable, low voltage DC power. Anything a Monster might do is completely undone. Then filters superior to what Monster offers 'cleans' even 'dirtier' power. Why spend $hundreds for Monster? Because Monster wants profits. The product be damned.

Monster has a long history of identifying a mythical cure. Then marketing a similar product for even larger profits. Unfortunately many who do reviews speculate about quality by, for example, observing the case. Into the case (and not into the electronics) is where Monster puts more money. To market to many who never demand what is more important ... such as numeric specifications.

Where is the %THD number? How many dBs for each decade? What does it do for harmonics? For an open neutral? For sags? For power factor? For polarity reversal? How does it cure a missing safety ground? Somehow it does some balanced power ... when power must enter the appliance unbalanced for major human safety reasons? What good is 'clean' power when electronics only make that power even 'dirtier' (radio frequency spikes)? Then superior filters 'clean' that 'dirtiest' power. Monster will never answer these questions.

They are selling to people who believe a 'magic box' will solve all anomalies. If Monster is selling an equivalent product, then suspect other similar products are also bogus. No replacement exists for reviews that verify each of so many specification numbers. Those are rarely provided because so many eyes automatically glaze over with each number.

Westom,

Can you recommend a power conditioner that is reasonably affordable and that will actually do what it is claiming? I will buy it if you can recommend one

 

[westom]

One popular definition of a power conditioner is actually only a noise filter. Series mode filters that do this effectively include products from Zerosurge, Brickwall, or Surgex. Series mode filters are for noise. And not for another anomaly called a surge.

A surge is a high current that hunts for earth ground. This anomaly is connected low impedance to earth before entering a building either by a hardwire or by a 'whole house' protector. In this solution, earth ground is the protection (is the power conditioner). A protector (rated at least 50,000 amps) or a wire connects to that single point earth ground.

Companies that provide these products include ABB, Ditek, General Electric, Polyphaser, Siemens, Leviton, Square D, Syscom, Intermatic, and Cutler-Hammer. In each case, this solution has a dedicated wire for that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. A product without that dedicated wire is not a solution for this anomaly.

Solutions to other anomalies are also called line conditioners. No "line conditioner" is a solution to all anomalies. The specific anomaly must be defined before a recommendation can exist.

 

[Darkwing_duck]

One popular definition of a power conditioner is actually only a noise filter. Series mode filters that do this effectively include products from Zerosurge, Brickwall, or Surgex. Series mode filters are for noise. And not for another anomaly called a surge.

A surge is a high current that hunts for earth ground. This anomaly is connected low impedance to earth before entering a building either by a hardwire or by a 'whole house' protector. In this solution, earth ground is the protection (is the power conditioner). A protector (rated at least 50,000 amps) or a wire connects to that single point earth ground.

Companies that provide these products include ABB, Ditek, General Electric, Polyphaser, Siemens, Leviton, Square D, Syscom, Intermatic, and Cutler-Hammer. In each case, this solution has a dedicated wire for that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. A product without that dedicated wire is not a solution for this anomaly.

Solutions to other anomalies are also called line conditioners. No "line conditioner" is a solution to all anomalies. The specific anomaly must be defined before a recommendation can exist.

So companies that offer solid noise filters are the ones listed above. Thank you. I will look into that. As far as surge protection goes you made it clear for this particular anomaly ( surge/spikes ) a whole house protector would be best which I can easily pick up from a hardware store. Is this correct? I will also look for the ones made by the companies you listed above (ABB, Ditek, General Electric, Polyphaser, Siemens, Leviton, Square D, Syscom, Intermatic, and Cutler-Hammer) Now I don't know much about how it's connection to to the earth ground will be other than I hire an electrician to install it to the panel. Is this also correct? Is there some special technique involved to make the product more effective? My house was built in 1997. How would I find out what length this ground earth rod is? Also, as far as voltage regulation goes, do you have any products you can recommend? Specifically for the inconsistent voltage levels my house wiring may suffer ( this is the anomaly ) And last, you mentioned a series mode filter from SurgeX. Can you elaborate why I should choose this type of filtering method over other products that do not offer this noise filtering? Would a high end Panamax M7500 Pro be effective at filtering noise out and Regulating voltage? M7500-PRO | A/V Components | Products | Panamax.com

 

[westom]

Now I don't know much about how it's connection to to the earth ground will be other than I hire an electrician to install it to the panel. Is this also correct? Is there some special technique involved to make the product more effective? My house was built in 1997. How would I find out what length this ground earth rod is? Also, as far as voltage regulation goes, do you have any products you can recommend?

Go to the breaker box. Find (probably) two quarter inch, bare copper wires that connect to where water pipes enter the building (an insufficient earth ground) and to earthing electrodes. Trace the path of that wire to earth ground electrodes.

For example, many electricians will route that wire up over the foundation and down to earth ground. That meets code for human safety. But that compromises surge protection. The electrical concepts necessary for surge protection are unknown to some electricians. Electricians are only taught concepts for human safety and 60 Hz electricity. By going up over the foundation, that wire is too long, has sharp bends going over the foundation, and is bundled wth other non-grounding wires.

A better earth ground routes that wire through the foundation and down to earthing electrodes. Then the wire is shorter, has no sharp bends, and routes separately from other (Romex) wires. Not all electricians understand the electrical reasons that make this important.

Same requirements apply to a ground wires from a telco 'installed for free' whole house' protector, and from the cable TV or satellite dish ground wire. These also must be low impedance (as short as possible, no sharp bends, etc) to the same electrode(s).

Protectors are simple science. For example, a 'whole house' protector of 50,000 amps defines a protector's life expectancy. Earthing is the 'art' that defines how good the 'system' works during each surge. More electrodes 8 foot long or deeper makes the earth ground (and protection) better. Geology also defines how many or how extensive that electrode network must be. Again - an art.

For most, 2 ten foot, copper clad electrodes are sufficient. But this is most important. Earth ground defines how good the protectors are; how well those protectors will connect a surge to what harmlessly absorbs the energy.

 

[westom]

Also, as far as voltage regulation goes, do you have any products you can recommend? Specifically for the inconsistent voltage levels my house wiring may suffer ( this is the anomaly )

Normal voltage for any electronics is even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50% intensity. How often is your voltage changing that much? Variations that large remain ideal voltage to all electronics due to what a power supply does: convert major AC voltage variations into rock solid and unchanging DC voltages.

Best voltage regulation is already inside appliances. Portable appliances even contain better regulation. Ideal voltage for any 120 volt 'portable' appliance is 85 to 265 volts. How often does you voltage vary that much?

Voltages variation is a threat to motorized appliances; not to electronics. So the utility must maintain volts without specification, or disconnect power. So as to protect your refrigerator, furnace, air conditioner, etc.

Now if you lights are changing by 20% or 50%, then a potential human safety threat exists. Any dimming is often just a loose connection or a receptacle foolishly wires using its backstab connector. (If you don't know about those backstab connections, then go view receptacles in Home Depot, Lowes, Tru-Value Hardware, etc). In some rare cases, dimming indicates a serous safety problem.

Fix (eliminate) reasons for dimming - even if dimming occurs when a microwave or laser printer powers on. If the problem is not due to loose wires to receptacles, then dimming could indicate human safety problems defined by loose (ie neutral) wires to the breaker box, defective service wire from pole to house, or even a failing utility transformer.

Copper wire is very forgiving. Aluminum wire (ie 1970s vintage) is not. Dimming on any house wired with aluminum is a potential human safety threat - should never be ignored.

Electronic appliances already have superior regulation that either maintains rock solid DC voltages to electronics parts, or turns off the appliance.

 

[westom]

Would a high end Panamax M7500 Pro be effective at filtering noise out and Regulating voltage? M7500-PRO | A/V Components | Products | Panamax.com

View its specifications. It claims about 100 dB of noise filtering (significant but already done inside electronics). It apparently adjusts minor voltage variations (that are completely irrelevant to all electronics). It does claim transient protection similar to what is found even in a $10 protector selling in Wal-Mart. Protection that does not address destructive transients due to no low impedance and dedicated connection to earth. Its telephone protection will attenuate DSL signals (undesireable - at that price it should already have a DSL filter inside).

Series mode noise filters are implemented in venues (ie recording studios) where even minimal noise might be recorded on the master. That same noise should not adversely affect any homeowner appliances due to significant filtering standard in its power supply.

Remember how a power supply works. Electronics convert that 'cleanest' or 'dirtiest' power into something much dirtier - much higher voltage, radio frequency spikes. Then superior filters already inside all electronics convert that 'dirtiest' power into rock solid and stable DC voltages. Significant filtering is already standard inside all properly designed electronics.

Meanwhile, many computer assemblers do not know this stuff. Do not know that they (and not the power supply vendor) is completely responsible for noise filtering. Therefore many power supplies (dumped into a market of electrically naive assemblers) are missing filters. Often a spot for those filters exists on its PC board. Only jumper wires exist where filters should be. Because most computer assemblers ignore spec numbers. And do not know that they (and not the power supply manufacturer) are responsible for meeting noise (and filtering) requirements defined by many standards including FCC regulations.

 

[jneutron]

What a hoot.

This thread looks like a pair of Furby's on speed.

Can't we just phaser one set of dilithium crystals and trap both Lazarus' in the middle??

 

[fuzz092888]

This thread looks like a pair of Furby's on speed.

If that had been the next model, I think the product line would've lived on.

 

[Rickster71]

What a hoot.

This thread looks like a pair of Furby's on speed.

I believe that's an insult to all Furbys far and wide.
However, it's my understanding, that Furbys have excellent earth ground.
Brushing up on my Furbish-English phrasing.
u-nye-way-loh-nee-way / Lightning seeks earth ground'

 

[Darkwing_duck]

Hello, got an image from the Panamax site of their flagship power centre. Anybody able to find out what the second smaller non-marked torodial transformer would be used for? Is this a dual balanced power transformer configuration?

The datasheet for this power centre claims this:

"At the heart of the MAX® 7500-PRO is an advanced power filtration system featuring a 720VA isolation transformer, that
provides power for digital source components and displays."

"Voltage regulation and Balanced Power"

So Im not sure what it could be...any guesses? Engineers?


Here is the link to dataspec sheet:
http://www.panamax.com/PDF/Datasheets/L576_D_M7500_PRO.pdf

 

[Darkwing_duck]

Some sold speaker cables with one end marked for an amplifier and another for the speaker. Then claim if those connections are reversed, then sound will be subverted. Monster has a long history of identifying scams. Then selling an equivalent product for even higher prices. Monster would mark $7 speaker wires with speaker and amplifier ends. And sell it for something like $70.

A power strip protector sells in WalMart for $10. So Monster sells an equivalent circuit inside a more expensive box for about $100. Radiio Shack recently discounted them for about $45. Again, Monster sells an equivalent product for even higher profits.

Where are spec numbers that say that "Dual Balanced Pure Power" is anything but phooey? For example, how many dB of noise does it filter for each frequency? Where is the %THD number that defines clearer power? Why did they forget to mention that a transformer is already inside electronics already doing isolation? What does balance power accomplish? Where are any specification numbers for Monster?

"Why did they forget to mention that a transformer is already inside electronics already doing isolation? "
I think all if not most power supply based companies acknlowedge that products do have the technology inside of them...it just isnt as good or efficient as their proudct. So this would for even the really high end companies like Furman, SurgeX, etc...not just Monster

And I wont argue with you on the fact that Monster does have an infamous history for being a bully and offering quality products at substantially high prices where there are equally performing products for much less. I know that much. BUT, we cant argue that their products, albeit expensive and over-engineered in some instances, DO WORK? We cant deny them this?

Just look at this very old review completed by Gene on a Monster HTS 3500 Home Theater Reference Power Center
Monster HTS 3500 Home Theater Reference Power Center | Audioholics

Pros:
Excellent Build Quality
Superb Video Filtering
Clear and Logical Ergonomics

Anyways....

" What does balance power accomplish? "
The Balanced Power Transformers are designed with a center-tapped secondary winding which consists of two identical, mirrored secondary windings in series with an electrostatic shield. When the center tap is grounded, these two identical windings short circuit the equal amplitude but opposite phased noise current and greatly attenuate (low to medium frequency) common mode noise. The ground noise amplitude goes to zero, which eliminates audio to be free of noise interference. In addition, our balanced transformers are designed with very low flux density to further reduce the mechanical noise. This series of transformers are perfect for audio recording and production studios.

Source: Toroidal Balanced Transformers

"Where are any specification numbers for Monster?"
You are right that the spec numbers arent available at a first glance on their product page unless you consider the owners manual that has a specs page at the end of it. Does that count?

 

[Darkwing_duck]

View attachment 12574

Hello, got an image from the Panamax site of their flagship power centre. Anybody able to find out what the second smaller non-marked torodial transformer would be used for? Is this a dual balanced power transformer configuration?

The datasheet for this power centre claims this:

"At the heart of the MAX® 7500-PRO is an advanced power filtration system featuring a 720VA isolation transformer, that
provides power for digital source components and displays."

"Voltage regulation and Balanced Power"

So Im not sure what it could be...any guesses? Engineers?


Here is the link to dataspec sheet:
http://www.panamax.com/PDF/Datasheets/L576_D_M7500_PRO.pdf

I figured out the answers by myself. FWIW...and to anyone who cares....The secondary torodial transformer-looking device is actually the device that automates the voltage regulation. The larger looking thing is the real torodial transformers that gives this power device the balanced power feature.

Thanks for nothing *****es!

 

[westom]

The secondary torodial transformer-looking device is actually the device that automates the voltage regulation. The larger looking thing is the real torodial transformers that gives this power device the balanced power feature.

Which means it is doing what is already done better inside electronic appliances.

 

[Darkwing_duck]

Which means it is doing what is already done better inside electronic appliances.

Oh my goodness....is that so? You make it sound like all these exotic features in these high end power devices are essential useless since a regular display or audio device already does it....better

Avr? Nope. No need. My 43" low end plasma display already does.
Balanced power ? Nope, my denon x4000 already does it. Guess like it can also solve any ground loops I may have or remove static hiss too, right?
How about power conditioning?

Westom are you suggesting my display, receiver, amp and such already have components that filter "dirty" out power? Automate the voltage within 5% from 120v and balance the power to remove ground loops? If so, the power industry is a scam. No sarcasm. It really has to be because you haven't suggested at all in your posts if any said products in this thread were actually useful....only that the electronic devices today ' already do this and that '


Either you are right or you could be wrong very very wrong. I don't know what to believe anymore

 

[westom]

Oh my goodness....is that so? You make it sound like all these exotic features in these high end power devices are essential useless since a regular display or audio device already does it....better

These exotic features are simple and standard designs with new fancy names. To manipulate the naive and to create sales of something that does virtually nothing additional.

Best filter is already inside electronics. That's what a power supply does. First it undoes anything that an adjacent 'magic box' might do. It filters power. Then it converts 120 volt power to well over 300 volts. Then converts that high voltage DC to radio frequency spikes. Then superior filters and regulation convert high voltage, radio frequency spikes into rock solid and stable low voltage DC.

Electronics implement many filters. Some filters must even convert radio wave spikes into rock stable DC. These designs have been standard in electronics even before PCs existed. Even the first IBM PC had these features. Consumers are easily manipulated with exotic phrases that say a magic box does what is already done better inside electronics.

Balanced power is an especially bogus concept. If your amp has connections, then it cannot have what you believe is balanced power (also called a floating ground). That would create a dangerous human safety risk. They confuse longitudinal mode signaling and differential mode signaling with vague and subjective phrases. To confuse with exotic and technically irrelevant terms.

Power conditioning, as noted earlier, is a vague and useless concept sold to consumers as if one magic box will solve all problems. Problems such as harmonics, EMI/EMC, floating ground, frequency variations, sags, power factor, open neutral, spikes, pops, noise, etc require different solutions often located at different locations. Any useful power conditioning discusses each and other anomalies with numbers that says how each anomaly is 'power conditioned'. No magic box does that. Power conditioning is how Monster sells their products at much higher prices as if it magically does all. Monster identifies bogus products. Then sells something equivalent - for higher price. If Monster is selling one, you know the equivalent product is also probably bogus.

Power discussions must include voltage regulation, ripple voltages, dynamic response, amps, and safety features such as current foldback limiting. These are also defined by circuits already inside electronics.

Voltage can drop so much that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50% intensity - well beyond your 5% number. Superior power conditioning inside electronics means all voltages inside electronics remain rock solid, unchanged, and 'clean' even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50%. How often does your voltage vary that much? Electronics make irrelevant an anomaly that large. Did they forget to mention that?

Does the power conditioner discuss %THD? Just another parameter that requires a number. Only useful are solutions defined by numbers. Concepts such as balanced power is subjective - to sell a myth to naive consumers. No numbers often indicates a lie.

 

[Darkwing_duck]

These exotic features are simple and standard designs with new fancy names. To manipulate the naive and to create sales of something that does virtually nothing additional.

Best filter is already inside electronics. That's what a power supply does. First it undoes anything that an adjacent 'magic box' might do. It filters power. Then it converts 120 volt power to well over 300 volts. Then converts that high voltage DC to radio frequency spikes. Then superior filters and regulation convert high voltage, radio frequency spikes into rock solid and stable low voltage DC.

Electronics implement many filters. Some filters must even convert radio wave spikes into rock stable DC. These designs have been standard in electronics even before PCs existed. Even the first IBM PC had these features. Consumers are easily manipulated with exotic phrases that say a magic box does what is already done better inside electronics.

Balanced power is an especially bogus concept. If your amp has connections, then it cannot have what you believe is balanced power (also called a floating ground). That would create a dangerous human safety risk. They confuse longitudinal mode signaling and differential mode signaling with vague and subjective phrases. To confuse with exotic and technically irrelevant terms.

Power conditioning, as noted earlier, is a vague and useless concept sold to consumers as if one magic box will solve all problems. Problems such as harmonics, EMI/EMC, floating ground, frequency variations, sags, power factor, open neutral, spikes, pops, noise, etc require different solutions often located at different locations. Any useful power conditioning discusses each and other anomalies with numbers that says how each anomaly is 'power conditioned'. No magic box does that. Power conditioning is how Monster sells their products at much higher prices as if it magically does all. Monster identifies bogus products. Then sells something equivalent - for higher price. If Monster is selling one, you know the equivalent product is also probably bogus.

Power discussions must include voltage regulation, ripple voltages, dynamic response, amps, and safety features such as current foldback limiting. These are also defined by circuits already inside electronics.

Voltage can drop so much that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50% intensity - well beyond your 5% number. Superior power conditioning inside electronics means all voltages inside electronics remain rock solid, unchanged, and 'clean' even when incandescent bulbs dim to 50%. How often does your voltage vary that much? Electronics make irrelevant an anomaly that large. Did they forget to mention that?

Does the power conditioner discuss %THD? Just another parameter that requires a number. Only useful are solutions defined by numbers. Concepts such as balanced power is subjective - to sell a myth to naive consumers. No numbers often indicates a lie.

Either you are a guy with way too many opinions or you are simply a genius. I dont know but I sure know that either way im buying a Panamax M7500PRO because it looks bad-***. It probably wont clean my power as you suggested it wont or automate my voltage the way my components do and do better but it will be the coolest looking $700 paper weight that even you cant show shame on! Thanks westom!

....no seriously. Thanks. I would've ended up buying the Monster Signature series power centre if you didnt convince me these devices "simple and standard designs with new fancy names" No point in paying for a $1500 power bar with lights. So i went with the next cheapest and coolest looking thing.

 

[TLS Guy]

I think I've spent over 5 hours researching several technical articles on surge suppression - how it works, what you need to look for, what UL ratings to look for and what components inside of them work best to suppression the surge. Everything ranging from MOVs to GDTs, effective clamping voltages and effective response times ( < 1 nanosecond ) and where GDTs can be effective due to their poor conductance but are inferior to MOVs because of their short life after being exposed to high current.

So I've become familiar with this product. But it's funny, no article has listed how many joules you really need for "true" protection. Period. Ive seen many surge protectors in all price brackets with joule ratings rating from 450 to ~ 7500 ( which apparently is the highest amount available ATM ). Is there not an acceptable range to have? High end APC surge protectors have notable ratings listed from 1000 to maybe 3000 joules with a clamping voltage of 350 or 400 volts. But Super high end Monster products go up to the 6000 to 7000 joule mark.

So it really makes an enthusiast like me assume the obvious - the higher the joule rating the better? Or is a super high joule rating arbitrary? Merely just a fashion statement so-to-speak of which company has the highest numbers when a mere 1000 joules should be effective in supressing a spike/surge/lightning storm.

Also, there have been many many discussion likes this on the web with answers that follow with typical fashion - 'the higher the joules the better! Go monster! ' or ' I bought x product from bestbuy for 30 bucks, don't know if it works but it hasn't ruined my gear yet!'

As you can see there is no definitive guide on how to shop for surge protectors and I was wondering if a certain Electrical engineer who operates this website could enlighten me with a series of factors to look for in said product


Thank you,

V

Your problem is that you are looking for a spec from a product that means nothing in isolation.

I will review the physics. Power in watts is voltage X current. Now voltage and resistance of the circuit determine current. Current is voltage/resistance. So the higher the voltage, and the lower the resistance the higher the current. However when something blows up we call it "frying", and with good reason as it is heat that does the damage. Now the heat generated when current passes though a circuit is the square of the current X the resistance of the circuit. Now obviously when it comes to heat generated, and in this event it is destructive heat in your prized equipment, there must be a time element, which is were we get to the joule. A joule is a watt second. So a thousand joules is a 1000 watts (1KW) delivered for a second.

Now you can see the problem. House wiring is relatively thin and has measurable resistance and heats to the touch somewhat in normal use. So once you get a high voltage surge loose in the house it is searching for grounds all over the place in the most destructive of fashions.

Now you can see why you need surge protection at your panel. You need to get the surge to ground by the lowest resistance possible before it gets to your house wiring.

An inline surge protector is "feel good" engineering and far too late in the day to be effective. Its path back to true ground is far too tortuous.

Now I have been on about this before, but a proper engineering plan to mitigate surges starts with your home engineering. Most homes have pathetic grounding. In fact unless the owner has thought about the above physics and engineered it himself, you can be certain your panel grounding is substandard.

If you understood the above then you can see that your whole house surge protector must be able to shunt the largest feasible current to ground through the lowest resistance path. Form the math above, resistance means more heat and more damage. Not only that as a conductor heats its resistance increases, so you have a vicious cycle set up.

So what did I do?

I placed three large diameter seven foot copper grounding rods within 20 feet of the panel. You should not go over 20 feet, as even if you use multiple strands of heavy copper the resistance will be too high. I use multiple strands of stout copper wire to the three rods, which are interconnected.

I have a system set up to irrigate the grounding rods in dry periods.

I have a whole house surge protector at the panel.

Unfortunately only conductors cooled to absolute zero (-273 degrees C) have no resistance. So you can never have enough protection. With all the steps you can practically take you will have damage and very likely a house fire, if you get a direct hit.

I also use battery back up UPS systems in my set up. The purpose of these is to go to battery when the house voltage is outside of narrowly set parameters within 1 ms.

Practically that is as far as I think it is feasible for me to go to mitigate the problem, and recognize, that for practical reasons you can never have enough protection for the worst scenarios.

The bottom line is that you have to think this through as a total engineering system. You will get nowhere looking at the specs of a solitary device, which in any event is most likely best left on the shelf.

 

[jneutron]

Either you are a guy with way too many opinions or you are simply a genius. I dont know ....

I do know. he has way too many opinions, most are abysmally incorrect.

Unfortunately only conductors cooled to absolute zero (-273 degrees C) have no resistance.

Actually, I use niobium titanium at 1.8K and 4.5K, I use niobium tin at same temps, while up to about 9K it's still working well and carries a lot of current, and I use HTS from American superconductor at liquid nitrogen temperatures, 77K.

So, not quite absolute zero...but close...slightly colder that what a pair of thermal underwear would help with..