A question for an EE - Surge protector joule ratings - how much is enough

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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
I think I've spent over 5 hours researching several technical articles on surge suppression - how it works, what you need to look for, what UL ratings to look for and what components inside of them work best to suppression the surge. Everything ranging from MOVs to GDTs, effective clamping voltages and effective response times ( < 1 nanosecond ) and where GDTs can be effective due to their poor conductance but are inferior to MOVs because of their short life after being exposed to high current.

So I've become familiar with this product. But it's funny, no article has listed how many joules you really need for "true" protection. Period. Ive seen many surge protectors in all price brackets with joule ratings rating from 450 to ~ 7500 ( which apparently is the highest amount available ATM ). Is there not an acceptable range to have? High end APC surge protectors have notable ratings listed from 1000 to maybe 3000 joules with a clamping voltage of 350 or 400 volts. But Super high end Monster products go up to the 6000 to 7000 joule mark.

So it really makes an enthusiast like me assume the obvious - the higher the joule rating the better? Or is a super high joule rating arbitrary? Merely just a fashion statement so-to-speak of which company has the highest numbers when a mere 1000 joules should be effective in supressing a spike/surge/lightning storm.

Also, there have been many many discussion likes this on the web with answers that follow with typical fashion - 'the higher the joules the better! Go monster! ' or ' I bought x product from bestbuy for 30 bucks, don't know if it works but it hasn't ruined my gear yet!'

As you can see there is no definitive guide on how to shop for surge protectors and I was wondering if a certain Electrical engineer who operates this website could enlighten me with a series of factors to look for in said product


Thank you,

V
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
It gets real complicated real quick!
The best plan is to install a whole house unit at the main circuit breaker box.
 
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
Hey, thanks for showing some interest! And not to be rude but this is the exact response I've been finding everywhere on the web. I understand a whole house surge protector is a good idea if not better tbh, but I would like understand this from a more slightly technical perspective where I am hoping Gene could shed some light in since he is an EE with knowledge on this particular area
 
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
All in all, i just want to know HOW much joule protection is enough. For any setup. Theatre, computer, tv room, laptop study room, etc. I just don't know. I've seen product range from 350 joules all the way to 7000 joules which are the ultra expensive High end monster signature series. As I mentioned before, I have taken the liberty to assume that higher joule protection is best but....is it really? Or is 2000-3000 joules enough? I mean like...the device would either protect itself by disconnecting itself from the load and divert all the power back into the ground wire via the MOVs or trip the circuit break OR blow the fuse inside the device. Unless it's a super duper close lighting strike, I don't know what device would be able to contain and expel that power ( Any home product that can do that ? ) I'd like to know what joule rating would protect my stuff!
 
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
From what I have gathered there are several factors to look into for a surge protector.
1. Clamping voltage. Anything 350 volts and below is preferred. I have seen items with clamping voltages of 400-500 which can be too high for certain electronic devices.
2. Response time - < 1 nanosecond. Just the other day, I saw a surge protector with a response time of 1 second! Absolutely unacceptable! These spikes/surges and strikes of lighting happen almost instantly which means you need a device capable of near instantaneous action. It's really important otherwise those surges can damage your gear by the time your surge suppressor reacts.
3. Joule rating - I've read that a rating of 600 joules and above is what to look for.....and that's all I've found. What is 600 joules? How effective is 600 joules? A small spike? A long lasting surge?
4. MOVs or GDTs - which protection method is superior? Both? Do the MOVs expire faster than the GDTs? Is it vice versa?

I jut want a solid answer. Similar to how we have gotten answers to what type of speaker cable is effective. What gauge should we use? Are exotic materials really better? Thanks to Gene and his team we all have been given the insight these never ending questions despite the snake oil companies desire to keep pushing these products despite the obvious scientific results Gene and his team have provided. I wish Gene could shine some light here too!
 
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westom

Audioholic
All in all, i just want to know HOW much joule protection is enough.
Start with concepts originally introduced in elementary school science. Next four paragraphs must be understood to appreciate an answer to your 'what is enough' question.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A path for a 20,000 amp electric surge is via a wooden church steeple destructively to earth. Wood is not a good conductor. So 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple damaged.

Franklin installed a lightning rod. Now 20,000 amps is via a wire to an earthing electrode. High current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. Nothing damaged.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A lightning strike to utility wires far down the street is a direct strike, incoming to every household appliance, destructively to earth. Appliances are not a good conductor. So lightning creates a high voltage. Lightning current times a high voltage is high energy. Appliances damaged.

For over 100 years, facilities that cannot have damage installed superior earthing connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') via one 'whole house' protector. Then high current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No appliance is damaged.

Above paragraphs define protection of a structure (ie lightning rod) and protection of appliances inside (ie protector). In every case, where does energy dissipate? In earth. In every case what does a protector or rod do? Connect that current (ie 20,000 amps) to earth on a path that creates near zero voltage.

Ignore joules ratings for a protector. Your concern is current - amperes. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. So that even direct lightning strikes connect harmlessly to earth. A properly earthed (ie 'whole house) protector only does what a wire would otherwise do better. A 'whole house' protector's current rating (not joules) and distance of that wire to earth ground are essential. Even sharp wire bends or splices can compromise that protection.

Protector located adjacent to appliances is completely different even though it has a same name. It must somehow block or absorb a surge. How many joules does an adjacent protector absorb? Typically destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Discussions of that completely different device (also called a surge protector) is often vague and misleading. They want to avoid a damning questions: where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? And want you to assume the adjacent protector and 'whole house' protector work same.

Protection is defined by what harmlessly absorbs energy: single point earth ground. All four words have significance. What makes a protector or lightning rod even more effective? A better and lower impedance connection to earth ground. Protectors and lightning rods are simple science. The 'art' is earth ground.

Protection always means you know where energy harmlessly (or destructively) dissipates. And that the connection to earth is low impedance. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector can connect 50,000 amps to what absorbs that energy. A wire from a lightning rod to earth is sized and routed (ie no sharp bends) to connect that same current to what absorbs that energy. Protection is always about where that energy harmlessly dissipates.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
My advice would be to use the search function. This topic has been talked about to death and is why you aren't getting any responses.
 
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
My advice would be to use the search function. This topic has been talked about to death and is why you aren't getting any responses.
I have. And it lead to me the reviews on power conditioners by Gene and crew which I read but to no avail....the reviews were short and simple as I was hoping Gene would have gone all exploratory on his review as he normally does with speaker reviews. And the other threads that popped up weren't providing the information that I wanted - a technical breakdown of a surge protector.
 
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
Start with concepts originally introduced in elementary school science. Next four paragraphs must be understood to appreciate an answer to your 'what is enough' question.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A path for a 20,000 amp electric surge is via a wooden church steeple destructively to earth. Wood is not a good conductor. So 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple damaged.

Franklin installed a lightning rod. Now 20,000 amps is via a wire to an earthing electrode. High current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. Nothing damaged.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A lightning strike to utility wires far down the street is a direct strike, incoming to every household appliance, destructively to earth. Appliances are not a good conductor. So lightning creates a high voltage. Lightning current times a high voltage is high energy. Appliances damaged.

For over 100 years, facilities that cannot have damage installed superior earthing connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') via one 'whole house' protector. Then high current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No appliance is damaged.

Above paragraphs define protection of a structure (ie lightning rod) and protection of appliances inside (ie protector). In every case, where does energy dissipate? In earth. In every case what does a protector or rod do? Connect that current (ie 20,000 amps) to earth on a path that creates near zero voltage.

Ignore joules ratings for a protector. Your concern is current - amperes. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. So that even direct lightning strikes connect harmlessly to earth. A properly earthed (ie 'whole house) protector only does what a wire would otherwise do better. A 'whole house' protector's current rating (not joules) and distance of that wire to earth ground are essential. Even sharp wire bends or splices can compromise that protection.

Protector located adjacent to appliances is completely different even though it has a same name. It must somehow block or absorb a surge. How many joules does an adjacent protector absorb? Typically destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Discussions of that completely different device (also called a surge protector) is often vague and misleading. They want to avoid a damning questions: where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? And want you to assume the adjacent protector and 'whole house' protector work same.

Protection is defined by what harmlessly absorbs energy: single point earth ground. All four words have significance. What makes a protector or lightning rod even more effective? A better and lower impedance connection to earth ground. Protectors and lightning rods are simple science. The 'art' is earth ground.

Protection always means you know where energy harmlessly (or destructively) dissipates. And that the connection to earth is low impedance. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector can connect 50,000 amps to what absorbs that energy. A wire from a lightning rod to earth is sized and routed (ie no sharp bends) to connect that same current to what absorbs that energy. Protection is always about where that energy harmlessly dissipates.
A well built surge protector has several MOVs in parallel to the ground wire which is where the excess voltage goes. Products from APC are a testament of this and the their UL rating only further reinforces their ability. I just want to know how much is enough....or is this just an arbitrary number?
 
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westom

Audioholic
A well built surge protector has several MOVs in parallel to the ground wire which is where the excess voltage goes.
Add phrases they routinely avoid. "Low impedance", equipotential, and single point earth ground.

That wall receptacle safety ground wire might be 50 feet to earth ground. Something like 0.1 ohms resistance. And 120 ohms impedance. What happens during a near zero (100 amp) surge? 100 amps times 120 ohms is something less than 12,000 volts. Where is the protection? APC does not discuss earth ground because, well, those numbers are damning.

In facilities that cannot have damage, a ground wire must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet'). No sharp bends. Separated from other non-grounding wires (safety ground is compromised - bundled with other wires). Cannot be inside metallic conduit. A wall receptacle safety ground violates most if not every requirement. Plug-in protectors avoid discussing low impedance or single point earth ground.

Why are your answers so difficult to obtain? That completely different device (called a protector) does not have earth ground and does not claim to protect from the other and typically destructive surge. Plug-in protector is protection from a type of surge that often does not damage appliances.

Numerous IEEE papers discuss this. We who actually designed and installed this stuff have confirmed this even with experience. Martzloff's 1994 paper discusses how a plug-in (point of connection) protector can even make appliance damage easier:
Conclusion:
1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of appliances.
UL says nothing about whether a protector does protection. UL is only about human safety. UL only asks one question. Does it threaten human life. Nothing more. After hours of reading, they forgot to mention that?

Companies with integrity make the completely different device that is also called a surge protector. Intermatic, General Electric, Ditek, Siemens, Leviton, ABB, Polyphaser, and Square D - to name but a few. An also superior Cutler-Hammer protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot. In each case, superior protectors are defined by what really matters - current. And have a dedicated wire for a separated and low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth.

A completely different device from APC is rated in joules. What is enough? Typically destructive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. How do hundreds or a thousand joules in an APC product make hundreds of thousands of joules just disappear? It doesn't. "What is enough" means reading about a completely different device that is also called a surge protector. A minimally sized and properly earthed protector will connect 50,000 amperes to earth. And not fail.

How does a protector meet UL requirements? A thermal fuse disconnects MOVs as fast as possible. Leaving that surge connected to appliances. UL requirements mean that fuse must disconnect protector parts as fast as possible. Better protection already inside appliances makes that 'protector destructive' surge irrelevant. APC does not discuss what that fuse does and why it is so necessary for human safety. Again, what happens to a 1000 joules protector trying to absorb as much as hundreds of thousands of joules? Those damning numbers explain why you could not find an answer to your question.

Facilities that cannot have damage always upgrade their earthing (to exceed code). And connect protectors low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Protection is always a discussion about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate.

Effective protectors are rated in amperes rather than joules. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector is about 50,000 amperes. And costs about $1 per protected appliance. How much for an undersized APC? It is not an arbitrary number. APC protectors also need protection only possible by earthing the completely different device - one 'whole house' protector.
 
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Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
A quick question as this has been in my mind lately....Is it be OK to daisy chain a surge protector with a UPS? Logic here would to be save the UPS from surge damage where the surge protector would take all the damage of which I'd be able to dispose of it and pick up another one without breaking the bank for another 100-200 ups

Is this method fine? Or is it redundant?
 
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
Start with concepts originally introduced in elementary school science. Next four paragraphs must be understood to appreciate an answer to your 'what is enough' question.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A path for a 20,000 amp electric surge is via a wooden church steeple destructively to earth. Wood is not a good conductor. So 20,000 amps creates a high voltage. 20,000 amps times a high voltage is high energy. Church steeple damaged.

Franklin installed a lightning rod. Now 20,000 amps is via a wire to an earthing electrode. High current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. Nothing damaged.

Lightning seeks earth ground. A lightning strike to utility wires far down the street is a direct strike, incoming to every household appliance, destructively to earth. Appliances are not a good conductor. So lightning creates a high voltage. Lightning current times a high voltage is high energy. Appliances damaged.

For over 100 years, facilities that cannot have damage installed superior earthing connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') via one 'whole house' protector. Then high current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No appliance is damaged.

Above paragraphs define protection of a structure (ie lightning rod) and protection of appliances inside (ie protector). In every case, where does energy dissipate? In earth. In every case what does a protector or rod do? Connect that current (ie 20,000 amps) to earth on a path that creates near zero voltage.

Ignore joules ratings for a protector. Your concern is current - amperes. A minimal 'whole house' protector is 50,000 amps. So that even direct lightning strikes connect harmlessly to earth. A properly earthed (ie 'whole house) protector only does what a wire would otherwise do better. A 'whole house' protector's current rating (not joules) and distance of that wire to earth ground are essential. Even sharp wire bends or splices can compromise that protection.

Protector located adjacent to appliances is completely different even though it has a same name. It must somehow block or absorb a surge. How many joules does an adjacent protector absorb? Typically destructive surges can be hundreds of thousands of joules. Discussions of that completely different device (also called a surge protector) is often vague and misleading. They want to avoid a damning questions: where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? And want you to assume the adjacent protector and 'whole house' protector work same.

Protection is defined by what harmlessly absorbs energy: single point earth ground. All four words have significance. What makes a protector or lightning rod even more effective? A better and lower impedance connection to earth ground. Protectors and lightning rods are simple science. The 'art' is earth ground.

Protection always means you know where energy harmlessly (or destructively) dissipates. And that the connection to earth is low impedance. A minimally sized 'whole house' protector can connect 50,000 amps to what absorbs that energy. A wire from a lightning rod to earth is sized and routed (ie no sharp bends) to connect that same current to what absorbs that energy. Protection is always about where that energy harmlessly dissipates.
Westom, ive re-read your responses and decided it would be wise to do the following....

Should I buy a surge protector or not?
 
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westom

Audioholic
Should I buy a surge protector or not?
To answer that question, you must first define which anomaly you are trying to avoid. For example, the UPS is only temporary and 'dirity' power during a blackout. To protect from data loss. That does not do and does not claim hardware protection. Since you considered a UPS, is that the anomaly you want to solve?

If you want protection from transients that typically exists maybe once every seven years and causes hardware damage, then you are not asking about any surge protector. You are asking about inspecting or upgrading earth ground - what does the protection. And connecting AC wires to that earth ground via a 'whole house' protector. Again, that device is called a surge protector. It is completely different from another device also called a surge protector. The other device that would plug into a UPS does not claim to protect from that destructive transient since it has no earth ground.

Should you want protection from transients created by stray cars, linemen errors, and lightning, then your major concern is what does that surge protection: earth ground. And what connects to the protection: a 'whole house' protector which is completely different from another device also called a surge protector.

Other anomalies such as harmomics, EMI/EMC/RFI, open neutral, etc were not discussed. So I assume those anomalies are not a concern. I don't worry about anomalies that are made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances. Therefore have no interest in a surge protector that might plug into a UPS. For potentially destructive transients, address what does that protection (earth ground). And install the least expensive connections to that earth ground (one 'whole house' protector rated at least 50,000 amps).

Posted previously was a very important point about hardware protection.
For over 100 years, facilities that cannot have damage installed superior earthing connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') via one 'whole house' protector. Then high current creates near zero voltage. 20,000 amps times a near zero voltage is near zero energy. No appliance is damaged. ...

In facilities that cannot have damage, a ground wire must be short (ie 'less than 10 feet'). No sharp bends. Separated from other non-grounding wires (safety ground is compromised - bundled with other wires). Cannot be inside metallic conduit.
Low impedance, equipotential, and single point earth ground define that proetction. A 'whole house' protector simply a connecting device to what does protection. A completely different device, also called a surge protector, does not.

An answer first requires you to define which anomaly to protect from. Two completely different devices (both called protectors) address completely different anomalies.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Westom, ive re-read your responses and decided it would be wise to do the following....

Should I buy a surge protector or not?
Asking him for advice is going to leave you dumber than when you got here ... if you're not already him.

If you are him then just ignore yourself.
 
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
To answer that question, you must first define which anomaly you are trying to avoid. For example, the UPS is only temporary and 'dirity' power during a blackout. To protect from data loss. That does not do and does not claim hardware protection. Since you considered a UPS, is that the anomaly you want to solve?

If you want protection from transients that typically exists maybe once every seven years and causes hardware damage, then you are not asking about any surge protector. You are asking about inspecting or upgrading earth ground - what does the protection. And connecting AC wires to that earth ground via a 'whole house' protector. Again, that device is called a surge protector. It is completely different from another device also called a surge protector. The other device that would plug into a UPS does not claim to protect from that destructive transient since it has no earth ground.

Should you want protection from transients created by stray cars, linemen errors, and lightning, then your major concern is what does that surge protection: earth ground. And what connects to the protection: a 'whole house' protector which is completely different from another device also called a surge protector.

Other anomalies such as harmomics, EMI/EMC/RFI, open neutral, etc were not discussed. So I assume those anomalies are not a concern. I don't worry about anomalies that are made irrelevant by protection already inside appliances. Therefore have no interest in a surge protector that might plug into a UPS. For potentially destructive transients, address what does that protection (earth ground). And install the least expensive connections to that earth ground (one 'whole house' protector rated at least 50,000 amps).

Posted previously was a very important point about hardware protection.
Low impedance, equipotential, and single point earth ground define that proetction. A 'whole house' protector simply a connecting device to what does protection. A completely different device, also called a surge protector, does not.

An answer first requires you to define which anomaly to protect from. Two completely different devices (both called protectors) address completely different anomalies.
I just want to protect my valuable electronics ( home theatre and PC ) from electrical harm. What products can I buy from a local store that will help me do that?
 
A

Ampdog

Audioholic
Darkwing_duck,

As Fuzz092888 said in his post #7.....

I have also responded in the previous exchange of info, detailing what experiences we had from research in Pretoria, South-Africa, one of the most lightning-ridden cities in summer on the planet. It would appear that those differed from some of Westom's advice, although he certainly has knowledge. Which only means that though there are commonalities, much depends on the nature of storms in your area. Also whether you literally mean surges (i.e. mains line surges) or generally also include direct strikes.

And you still have no indication!!

Our findings were that direct strikes (as in full strikes) will simply go through everything, but do not frequently occur in urban areas where the grid of electricity distribution mercifully generally sees to a more evenly maintained field than out in the country (unless of course you have advanced to full underground cable). Meaning that where I live (in Pretoria) >70% of damage occurred from mains surges compared to the total figure of lightning damage.

Thus not knowing the nature of storm occurrence in your area I still cannot advise you (I would risk advising you if you lived in Pretoria), only to repeat to get one of the better (more expensive) models though not necessarily the most expensive. Local folks will need to advise regarding a figure/model-and-make. What have others near to you installed/found effective/not effective? (They say that experience is a good teacher - but second-hand is cheaper!) I can only say that I live with moderately priced separate units on my computers and hi-fi/tv circuits each, and had no failures. (I do unplug during severe electrical storms just in case, but to repeat yet again, direct strikes are comparatively few in our area.)

Time then for your countrymen to give you specific enlightenment, and for you not to blame anyone in case it proved inadequate, as it might, but hopefully never will. That seems to be the information you are looking for but do not get.

(We have also learnt that there is no predicting what lightning will do. Yet one does not stay indoors for fear of being run over by a car - which is still the largest single factor in traffic fatalities over here.)
 
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
Darkwing_duck,

As Fuzz092888 said in his post #7.....

I have also responded in the previous exchange of info, detailing what experiences we had from research in Pretoria, South-Africa, one of the most lightning-ridden cities in summer on the planet. It would appear that those differed from some of Westom's advice, although he certainly has knowledge. Which only means that though there are commonalities, much depends on the nature of storms in your area. Also whether you literally mean surges (i.e. mains line surges) or generally also include direct strikes.

And you still have no indication!!

Our findings were that direct strikes (as in full strikes) will simply go through everything, but do not frequently occur in urban areas where the grid of electricity distribution mercifully generally sees to a more evenly maintained field than out in the country (unless of course you have advanced to full underground cable). Meaning that where I live (in Pretoria) >70% of damage occurred from mains surges compared to the total figure of lightning damage.

Thus not knowing the nature of storm occurrence in your area I still cannot advise you (I would risk advising you if you lived in Pretoria), only to repeat to get one of the better (more expensive) models though not necessarily the most expensive. Local folks will need to advise regarding a figure/model-and-make. What have others near to you installed/found effective/not effective? (They say that experience is a good teacher - but second-hand is cheaper!) I can only say that I live with moderately priced separate units on my computers and hi-fi/tv circuits each, and had no failures. (I do unplug during severe electrical storms just in case, but to repeat yet again, direct strikes are comparatively few in our area.)

Time then for your countrymen to give you specific enlightenment, and for you not to blame anyone in case it proved inadequate, as it might, but hopefully never will. That seems to be the information you are looking for but do not get.

(We have also learnt that there is no predicting what lightning will do. Yet one does not stay indoors for fear of being run over by a car - which is still the largest single factor in traffic fatalities over here.)
Hello

I don't get many thunderstorms or lightening strikes in my area. I live in the greater Toronto area in Ontario, Canada....we get a lot of snow but not much lightening/thunder activity and maybe a power outrage or two every 6 six months. That is my living situation.

Funny thing is, I remember feeling this lost when I was shopping for speaker wires and then I came across audioholics and Gene and his crew broke down the speaker cable myth with their wonderful articles and it was smooth sailing. Now I'm back in the same seat and feel overwhelmed agin by the various levels of power protection and conditioning and voltage regulatin available to the AVERAGE hifi consumer...I think I speak for all enthusiasts like me when I say this, we are not electrical or electronics engineers. We do not know what to buy and if it would really work...only the engineers that built them would know.

My objective here is really simple when I think about it. I want to know what product I need that is available at a local store. I don't want to know ground wires going 30 feet below my house, I have no control over how my house was constructed or how the service panel was grounded. If I can buy the item at a local big box store and it can help my gear that I value in any way then I will buy it.

So, it goes to this: Surge/Spike protection, Line conditioning, voltage regulators. What levels of products will actually do what it is claiming? Or is it snake oil? Like those high end speaker cables with batteries attached. Because I will spend the money to buy that high end avr from monster cable if it really does level out my voltage level so as to make it a healthier environment for my gear. Also my house was built in 1998 so electrical wiring isn't out-dated or inferior.

Signature Series™ Home Theater Automatic Voltage Stabilizer AVS 2000

Look at this high end voltage regulator from monster. Will it do what it is claiming and help my valuable gear? I'm sure it isn't just a big empty box that there are high grade parts that filter and clean and regulate the power as expected, I just don't know if I NEED this because I don't know what my electronics deal with
 
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westom

Audioholic
What products can I buy from a local store that will help me do that?
No device protects from all anomalies - despite so many protestations in audio stores that make that claim.. Define each anomaly to obtain a solution for that anomoly. A short list of other anomalies were in a previous post. Do you need protection from any of them?

One common threat to electronics and other hardware is a transient that seek earth ground. Lightning (storms) is only one reason for such transients. Discuss lightning because those other sources create a similar anomaly. Does not matter if you never have a thunderstorm. You need lightning protection because stray cars, linemen errors, etc look like lightning to all appliances.

That anomaly is averted by upgrading single point earth ground connected low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meters') by a 'whole house' protector.

That is a solution for one type of anomaly. Some other anomalies were mentioned. Protection from other anomalies means defining the anomaly before anyone can recommend a solution.

Provided was a least expensive solution to avert damage from one anomaly often described as a surge. These protectors and the also so important earthing electrodes are obtained in any electrical supply house. Or from better stocked stores such as Lowes and Home Depot. This was detailed previously.

Because so many audiophiles have little electrical knowledge, then many magic boxes are constructed for a few dollars to sell for $100 (ie Monster). In part, because so many want a 'magic box' solution for everything without first doing what is always required; first define the problem / threat.

For example, many will recommend a Surgex to protect from lightning. Somehow that series mode filter will stop what three miles of sky could not? Yes, most myths are that easy to expose. Surgex does near zero surge protection. As a series mode filter, it is excellent as a noise filter. It addresses one anomaly quite well. And is all but useless for another electrical anomaly.

One solution was provided for making one anomaly irrelevant. Do you need that solution? In the past ten years, have events (all of which act like lightning) caused appliance damage? Well, when the solution costs about $1 per protected appliance, then why would you not earth that proven solution anyway?

To say more means you cannot say, "I want protection." Say, "I want protection from xxxx." Since nothing exists to protect from all anomalies. Suggested was a solution for one typically destructive anomaly. A solution that means most attention is on earth ground; not on what is simple science - a 'whole house' protector.
 
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Darkwing_duck

Audioholic
No device protects from all anomalies - despite so many protestations in audio stores that make that claim.. Define each anomaly to obtain a solution for that anomoly. A short list of other anomalies were in a previous post. Do you need protection from any of them?

One common threat to electronics and other hardware is a transient that seek earth ground. Lightning (storms) is only one reason for such transients. Discuss lightning because those other sources create a similar anomaly. Does not matter if you never have a thunderstorm. You need lightning protection because stray cars, linemen errors, etc look like lightning to all appliances.

That anomaly is averted by upgrading single point earth ground connected low impedance (ie 'less than 3 meters') by a 'whole house' protector.

That is a solution for one type of anomaly. Some other anomalies were mentioned. Protection from other anomalies means defining the anomaly before anyone can recommend a solution.

Provided was a least expensive solution to avert damage from one anomaly often described as a surge. These protectors and the also so important earthing electrodes are obtained in any electrical supply house. Or from better stocked stores such as Lowes and Home Depot. This was detailed previously.

Because so many audiophiles have little electrical knowledge, then many magic boxes are constructed for a few dollars to sell for $100 (ie Monster). In part, because so many want a 'magic box' solution for everything without first doing what is always required; first define the problem / threat.

For example, many will recommend a Surgex to protect from lightning. Somehow that series mode filter will stop what three miles of sky could not? Yes, most myths are that easy to expose. Surgex does near zero surge protection. As a series mode filter, it is excellent as a noise filter. It addresses one anomaly quite well. And is all but useless for another electrical anomaly.

One solution was provided for making one anomaly irrelevant. Do you need that solution? In the past ten years, have events (all of which act like lightning) caused appliance damage? Well, when the solution costs about $1 per protected appliance, then why would you not earth that proven solution anyway?

To say more means you cannot say, "I want protection." Say, "I want protection from xxxx." Since nothing exists to protect from all anomalies. Suggested was a solution for one typically destructive anomaly. A solution that means most attention is on earth ground; not on what is simple science - a 'whole house' protector.


Thank you. Most folks here will not agree with this but I completely understood what you are saying. Whole house protector to create that earth ground to help stop what 3 miles of sky cannot. I will add a whole house surge protector to my service panel by a qualified electrician ASAP. I'd like to point out I would have added it anyways BUT the fundamental knowledge about what it does precisely would have not been there. Now I know. A ground earth connection. A slightly higher method of protection than a stand alone surge protector priced at $50 bucks.

How about line conditioning to remove static noise from components and/or interconnects? I'm assuming maybe the high end units will only pro provide such support?

Let's look at a high end offering from monster.
Signature Series™ Home Theater Reference HTPS 7000 MKII PowerSource with Dual Balanced Pure Power™ Transformers and Clean Power™ Stage 5

features exclusive Monster® Dual Balanced Pure Power™ circuitry for the lowest noise, best picture, and sound performance.
"combines the world's finest filter circuitry designed by Richard Marsh, uses triple shielded transformers with uniquely switchable balanced or isolated settings that will subdue any noise or ground"

Snake oil? Or will it actually work and do something?

For example, a quick search on the site will reveal a review completed by Gene on a Monster HTS 3500 Home Theater Reference Power Center

Monster HTS 3500 Home Theater Reference Power Center | Audioholics

Hers what Gene had to say:
"At first, when I read the back panel's claims to have specific inputs for digital and analog components, I shook it off as marketing gimmicky. However, upon further inspection of the internal components, I came to really appreciate the difference in filtering techniques and topologies for each of the specified inputs. Monster Power did their homework here in providing a surge suppressor with custom filtering tailored for each specific component in a home theater system."

We can agree that it isn't a heavy box filled with paper weights. We can also agree that the product has some form of electronic enegineering principles in it.

" The HTS 3500 did particularly excellent in resolving problems with my cable reception. "

" I also discovered that our reference system seemed to have a slightly cleaner sound when hooked through the HTS 3500. Furthermore, the noise floor appeared to drop slightly, especially on analog signals, during quite music passages. "

There is some merit to the isolation technology in the device I suppose as Gene wouldn't fall for over hyped claims because we all know it's not his style here....should I remind everyone what audioholics.com objective is? Pursuing the truth in Video and Audio!

Assuming I have no need for a power center other than to connect all my devices into one convenient box that looks rather nice I wouldn't mind receiving some benefit of less noise floor for analog sources....or even having it clean up my tv cable picture which looks impeccable at the moment. Just something nice to have?

So, the Signature HTPS 7000 MKII with Dual Balanced Pure Power™ Transformers may have some benefit at a cost ratio of slightly higher than what is probably available in the reference series which I don't doubt may do the same thing equally as effective but that's where my expertise wouldn't know and which is why I ask you guys. What device can give effective noise floor filtering? Certain electronic principles we should look for in a product? Is it what Gene came across? Or is this too an overly hyped product?
 
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