Philharmonic Audio - 3-way open back ML-TQWTs designed by Dennis Murphy

[nogaro]

LOOOL Ugh oh! I think I bit off more than I can chew.

I think he said wallops, not scallops

 

[monkish54]

i think he said wallops, not scallops

loooooool!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hey Dennis?

Do you think the Phil 2s are capable of a good 85-90db output (RMS) in a 25' X 25' X 8' (H) room at 12ft away?

I also say yes.

But the High Efficiency speaker crowd will say "NO". They will say you must have a sensitivity of 100dB/2.83V/m.

 

[ridikas]

Hey Dennis?

Do you think the Phil 2s are capable of a good 85-90db output (RMS) in a 25' X 25' X 8' (H) room at 12ft away?

In order to get 90dB (from one speaker) at a distance of 12 feet, the speaker needs to put out approximately 102dB at 1 meter. Should be no problem whatsoever.

 

[lsiberian]

In order to get 90dB (from one speaker) at a distance of 12 feet, the speaker needs to put out approximately 102dB at 1 meter. Should be no problem whatsoever.

That assumes no reflection reinforcement though. 99db would probably be closer to the real needed output.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I also say yes.

But the High Efficiency speaker crowd will say "NO". They will say you must have a sensitivity of 100dB/2.83V/m.

Well, all I can say is that the 2's can blast me out of my room, which is 35' X 20', at a listening distance of 12 feet. I guess this issue is whether they could produce a much louder transient cleanly at that average listening level. If you want a 106 dB transient out of them, then you probably wouldn't get it. I've suffered enough property damage this year with two violent storms, so I'm not really looking to add drywall and foundation repairs to the list. On another note, I did compare the monitors with my CA0W2's last night. The difference in bass response was a little greater than I expected--the monitors definitely have a cleaner, deeper foundation. There's a little more midrange presence with the CA0W2's--that's no doubt due to the smaller woofer and to the 2nd order crossover, which results in more driver overlap. The highs would be a matter of personal taste and program material. Overall, the monitors have a more open sound with a a slightly more distant perspective, and significantly deeper bass. They are very close to my 3's on a majority of music, but obviously no match when reproducing an organ or orchestra at full cry in a huge acoustic space.

 

[Nuance AH]

Hey Dennis?

Do you think the Phil 2s are capable of a good 85-90db output (RMS) in a 25' X 25' X 8' (H) room at 12ft away?

Yup. They hit peaks louder than that in Terry's room at our GTG this past April.

 

[monkish54]

I guess this issue is whether they could produce a much louder transient cleanly at that average listening level. If you want a 106 dB transient out of them, then you probably wouldn't get it

I'd need to pump 2,000 watts (literally) into the Phil 2 to produce 106db at 12'. Something tells me you won't be very happy with me if I try that.

Luckily, peaks are generally around 90-95db at the level I usually listen.

 

[monkish54]

Thank you all for answering my question. I haven't actually gone to bed yet, and it's 8 AM. I think now is a pretty good time for some shut-***. Night (morning) peeps.

 

[KEW]

Thanks for the education, Dennis. I want to be sure I understand what you're saying....

Because of higher order harmonics, an instrument's character, say of a tuba, is lost without a reasonably well integrated tweeter, crossed at a nominal 3k...(Edit: excluding issues involving a full-range driver)....?

I don't pretend to know this stuff to that detail. It doesn't seem that the primary harmonics for a tuba would extend that far. However, I would still submit that the brassy sound or blat of playing loudly is essentially the metal "breaking up" at the greatest amplitudes of the vibrations which would get into the "edge" zone from the chart.

Here are three interesting links (with a quote from the first). The third link is probably the most compelling for demonstrating the HF content of low pitches played on brass instruments (woodwinds also do this, but not so strongly).


Recording Brass & Reeds

In terms of the frequency spectrum, brass instruments all tend to be rich in harmonics. For example, although the fundamental of a trumpet is centred around 1200Hz, it generates strong harmonic components beyond 8kHz for the upper notes, with the implication that the harmonic series continues well into the ultrasonic region. The harmonic balance also varies enormously with volume, the fundamental and first overtone remaining relatively constant but the upper partials exhibiting a much greater dynamic range. Thus the trumpet (see Figure 1 below) can sound quite mellow when played softly, but brilliant when blown hard.

The trombone, on the other hand, has its fundamental centered around 550Hz (see Figure 2), but can produce frequency components above 10kHz when played hard. When played more softly, however, the balance of harmonics doesn't change quite as much compared to the trumpet, so it retains much of its rich and bright quality even during quieter passages. The lowest brass instruments are the bass and contrabass tubas (and their relatives) which are capable of generating notes as low as 29 Hz (a low Bb), although the first overtones are generally much stronger than the fundamentals.

This is a pretty neat site which is good for losing hours on if you start following the links, but I would direct you to the bottom of this page which shows the harmonics of a pedal tone being played on a trumpet. Note that the actual frequency the players lips vibrate is missing from the resulting sound and the 7th harmonic looks to be the loudest!:
Brass Instrument Acoustics

This is a pdf file. The abstract is worth reading, but if you scroll to page 14 (figure 5), you will see two frequency charts for a French Horn playing D3 (~147Hz) showing content up to 10kHz (the chart ends there, not the sound)
http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/47/46/48/PDF/2010_Norman_al_Acustica_PlayerControlOfBrassinessAtIntermediateDynamicLevelsInBrassInstruments.pdf

 

[Tomorrow]

Thanks for the info, guys. Now if I can figure out how speaker driver harmonics influences the character of brass instrument harmonics...I'll be able to play the trumpet again.

 

[ahblaza]

Hey Dennis?

Do you think the Phil 2s are capable of a good 85-90db output (RMS) in a 25' X 25' X 8' (H) room at 12ft away?

NO, you must have a speaker with a sensitivity of 100dB/2.83V/M

 

[fuzz092888]

Philharmonic Audio now on Facebook

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

NO, you must have a speaker with a sensitivity of 100dB/2.83V/M

H.E.M. fanboy!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Philharmonic Audio now on Facebook

Man, I don't even have a Facebook account.

Am I the only one?

 

[fuzz092888]

Man, I don't even have a Facebook account.

Am I the only one?

Yes



But that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[cpp]

Man, I don't even have a Facebook account.

Am I the only one?

Yep, afraid so

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yep, afraid so

Nope. Not even close.

 

[cpp]

Nope. Not even close.

Irv say it ain't so, not you

 

[ahblaza]

Man, I don't even have a Facebook account.

Am I the only one?

I'm with you partner, no Face account, have no need for it.