Dream Speakers Under $6,000 Retail

[PENG]

Further I would be very interested to know the DC resistance of those speakers, and would have a high suspicion it is higher than the impedance. If it is, this is a sure sign of resonance and ringing in the crossover. This is a common problem in passive three ways where the crossover between woofer and mid is too low. I think 300 Hz is too low.

I would be very wary of that speaker. For that money you can buy an ATC three way and be confident of it.

Unless I misunderstood what you are saying, it is theoretically not possible for the resistance (D.C.) value in ohms to be less than the impedance (AC) in any RLC circuit regardless of any form of resonance. At 0 hz, i.e. d.c., the impedance simply equals resistance, unless there is a blocking capacitor but then in that case, at 0 hz the resistance=impedance would be almost infinite. 'Almost', due to leakage. Other than that the measured d.c. resistance across the terminals should be the minimum ohmic value, again, regardless. I am just curous about what is it that I misunderstood.

 

[3db]

Unless I misunderstood what you are saying, it is theoretically not possible for the resistance (D.C.) value in ohms to be less than the impedance (AC) in any RLC circuit regardless of any form of resonance. At 0 hz, i.e. d.c., the impedance simply equals resistance, unless there is a blocking capacitor but then in that case, at 0 hz the resistance=impedance would be almost infinite. 'Almost', due to leakage. Other than that the measured d.c. resistance across the terminals should be the minimum ohmic value, again, regardless. I am just curous about what is it that I misunderstood.

That works for me

 

[walter duque]

Your going to have trouble finding meaningful measurements of Source Speakers. They just don't market to that type of crowd is my guess. I've heard those Coherent Pulses at Rickster71's house and have heard a variety of other Source Speakers at Walter's house. They all sounded great and given the variety there is something suitable for many different applications.

My thing with measurements lately is that they are taken at a fixed SPL. Well, I usually listen @ ~72db and Walter likes ~102db. I'm almost certain that what ever graph you look at isn't plotted at either level and the plots would be different at all three levels.

I'm not sure if I would trade 360's for Coherent Pulses sound wise ... I might but as far as looks go? there is no question. The beefier Source Speaker offerings can really put out some sound and it's good sound. Walter has their center with 3 tweeters and as much of a pain as that can be to design, it sounds fantastic. Still, no measurements. I guess they do okay without them. Funny how that works.

Honestly what did you think of my rear surrounds? The center has your name on it when it comes time to upgrade. These Coherent Pulse are designed for serious stereophiles. You need some Belles http://www.powermodules.com/power_modules/mb500_amp.html
mono blocks at 15k each to get the most out of them. Chinese made amplifiers are not going to do these speakers any justice. I think if you would hear them with a Threshold, Pass Labs, Audio Resarch or Belles you might change your mind.

 

[Alex2507]

Honestly what did you think of my rear surrounds? The center has your name on it when it comes time to upgrade. These Coherent Pulse are designed for serious stereophiles. You need some Belles mb500_amp
mono blocks at 15k each to get the most out of them. Chinese made amplifiers are not going to do these speakers any justice. I think if you would hear them with a Threshold, Pass Labs, Audio Resarch or Belles you might change your mind.

I would love to see you in one of those DBT things but 30 large for amps?
Dude, I'm driving a 12 year old Focus!

I like your surrounds better than your mains.
Three of those for a H/T front stage would be fine with me.

 

[cschang]

My thing with measurements lately is that they are taken at a fixed SPL. Well, I usually listen @ ~72db and Walter likes ~102db. I'm almost certain that what ever graph you look at isn't plotted at either level and the plots would be different at all three levels.

When compression sets in, you are correct, the graphs would look different. So the question is "when does compression set in?"

Soundstage, on their more recent measurements, show a "Deviation from Linearity" graph that pretty much addresses your issue.

Look at chart #4 in this set of measurements:

SoundStage! Measurements - KEF Reference 201/2 Loudspeakers (12/2007)

 

[PENG]

When compression sets in, you are correct, the graphs would look different. So the question is "when does compression set in?"

Soundstage, on their more recent measurements, show a "Deviation from Linearity" graph that pretty much addresses your issue.

Look at chart #4 in this set of measurements:

SoundStage! Measurements - KEF Reference 201/2 Loudspeakers (12/2007)

To me, charts like those linked are more useful and should come close to being the info one needs to buy the product without auditioning. Thanks again.

 

[GranteedEV]

and I wonder what GRANT does not like about them, heck their Frenchies.

I've never heard the Optimus Primes.

I've heard the Stella Utopias, seven-oh-somethings, and the tiny little high WAF lifestyle speakers.

The seven-oh-somethingss were. reasonably smooth and balanced at everyday SPLs but their design makes them suspect when you turn it up. It wasn't a proper long audition or anything but they basically took the similarily priced paradigms they were being compared to, and stepped all over them.

The Stellas are pretty free from dynamic compression but they're $30,000.

The lifestyle speakers were actually pretty impressive for their size. very smooth sounding and not much strain even at a good distance... funny but that was the highlight of the audition, not the 30K Stellas.

 

[Alex2507]

When compression sets in, you are correct, the graphs would look different. So the question is "when does compression set in?"

Soundstage, on their more recent measurements, show a "Deviation from Linearity" graph that pretty much addresses your issue.

Look at chart #4 in this set of measurements:

SoundStage! Measurements - KEF Reference 201/2 Loudspeakers (12/2007)

I am surprised the difference is that small. I wonder what we would see if that was measured anechoicly off axis at 10' away but beyond that our audibility threshold varies for different frequencies so the prospect of having a set curve appeal to a majority goes out the window once the volume changes because the perceived curve would be different even if the measured curve remained the same.

I think I'm tired and rambling because now I have managed to confuse myself.

 

[Alex2507]

Even the Infinity P162 shows very little linearity deviation @ 95dB.

SoundStage! Measurements - Infinity Primus P162 Loudspeakers (11/2008)

Excellent example of the suspicion I was trying to find the vocabulary to voice!

There's a significant (to me) difference going from 90db to 95db and that's from only 2m away on axis. I would expect expensive speakers to be better at that stuff on a greater axis at greater spl's. So while a well engineered inexpensive speaker like the Infinity might win out on axis at a moderate spl I wouldn't expect it to hold it's own against a high dollar B&W cranked up in a bigger room.

Thanks for providing that link. I feel like I figured something out.

EDIT: Holy post deletion, Bat Man!
Glad I caught it when I did. Were you scared I was going to learn something?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Excellent example of the suspicion I was trying to find the vocabulary to voice!

There's a significant (to me) difference going from 90db to 95db and that's from only 2m away on axis. I would expect expensive speakers to be better at that stuff on a greater axis at greater spl's. So while a well engineered inexpensive speaker like the Infinity might win out on axis at a moderate spl I wouldn't expect it to hold it's own against a high dollar B&W cranked up in a bigger room.

Thanks for providing that link. I feel like I figured something out.

EDIT: Holy post deletion, Bat Man!
Glad I caught it when I did. Were you scared I was going to learn something?

I wasn't sure I knew what I was talking about.

I guess compression isn't really an issue?

I'm still not sure.

Then again, I'm not sure the B&W 803D sounded any better than the P362.

 

[Alex2507]

I wasn't sure I knew what I was talking about.

I guess compression isn't really an issue?

I'm still not too sure.

Holy Post Modification, Bat Man!

I'm not the best and the brightest by any means but something is finally starting to make sense to me. Instead of being at odds with folks who believe differently than what I read it finally seems like there is a way to reconcile some of this stuff. I'm happy about that.

I'm not clear on what compression is but that's okay. Speakers are complicated and applications are different. Bias is real and I believe that time helps us shed the tricks our eyes play on our ears.

I haven't read the whole thread but to sort of steer this back on track I'll offer that in the <6k price range the nicest speaker I heard was the Martin Logan Vantage ... on axis ... I think. ... well, I know I liked it a lot.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

To me, charts like those linked are more useful and should come close to being the info one needs to buy the product without auditioning. Thanks again.

Close, but no cigars.

Here is the measurements of the Paradigm Studio 100 v3 from 2004:

SoundStage! Equipment Review - Paradigm Reference Studio 100 v.3 Loudspeakers (3/2004)

I bet the deviation from linearity is as good as the p162.

I auditioned the Studio 100 around 2010.

They sounded so "congested" I could not believe it. The difference between the clarity of my DefTech vs the s100 was night and day on the same exact songs in pure direct mode.

I asked the dealer what he thought of the sound - the same sound I was listening to. He said they sounded fine to him. They sounded good to him.

So just based on the measurements alone, they should have sounded great to me. But they sounded terrible to me.

 

[Alex2507]

Another one with the post deletion!

I'm just not gettin' the whole graph/measurement thing. I can't get past it being anything more than squiggly lines.

This thread had some good input from a variety of audio brainiology rocketeers.

 

[psbfan9]

Then again, I'm not sure the B&W 803D sounded any better than the P362.

How do the P362's compare to the 803d's when looking at measurements?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Holy Post Modification, Bat Man!

I'm not the best and the brightest by any means but something is finally starting to make sense to me. Instead of being at odds with folks who believe differently than what I read it finally seems like there is a way to reconcile some of this stuff. I'm happy about that.

I'm not clear on what compression is but that's okay. Speakers are complicated and applications are different. Bias is real and I believe that time helps us shed the tricks our eyes play on our ears.

I haven't read the whole thread but to sort of steer this back on track I'll offer that in the <6k price range the nicest speaker I heard was the Martin Logan Vantage ... on axis ... I think. ... well, I know I liked it a lot.

I was testing your Post Modification Kung Fu, Grasshopper.

And you have passed with flying Kung Fu colors.

I have also auditioned the Vantage - same time I auditioned the Krell & Dali Euphonia.

I thought the Vantage sounded very good as well. But I thought the $5000/pr DefTech BP7000 sounded better - a little clearer, and a lot more bass.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

How do the P362's compare to the 803d's when looking at measurements?

GranteedEV can give you a lot more insight and Kung Fu wisdom here, but I will say something until the master wakes up.

In terms of on-axis & off-axis frequency responses, the P362 mops the floor with the B&W 800D & 802D.

Ya. Mops the floor.

But in terms of spectral decay (cabinet resonance) the 800D & 802D take every other speaker to school. Ya. To school.

 

[GranteedEV]

Holy Post Modification, Bat Man!

I'm not the best and the brightest by any means but something is finally starting to make sense to me. Instead of being at odds with folks who believe differently than what I read it finally seems like there is a way to reconcile some of this stuff. I'm happy about that.

Power Compression is where a speaker 'stops getting louder' even if you keep adding power. Basically if something like a french horn is 10db louder than the rest of the recording, at 70db average, it'll be 80db. At 90db average it would be 100db. Now if the speaker can't go that loud, at 90db average that 100db horn might only be 95db.... it'll begin to stop sounding as distinct and deliniated in the recording....

Now also factor in that just about everything ~100hz-400hz is often the louder part of a recording. Not only is heat buildup causing extra power compression, but so is the driver's motion... If everything else is starting to sound as loud as the part of the recording that's loudest, you'll want to turn it down!!!

 

[Calvin Hobbes]

The room size, dampening or lack thereof will also have a large effect on sound compression.

 

[DenPureSound]

Kef r900

I am still trying to figure out what is wrong with this KEF R900 speaker.

Does anyone like/dislike its features/design and/or specifications?

Please CHIME In...

UniQ (MF/HF) Driver

Side View CutAway

KEF R900 Tower

Specs at: United States - Showroom - R900

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am still trying to figure out what is wrong with this KEF R900 speaker.

Does anyone like/dislike its features/design and/or specifications?

Please CHIME In...

Specs at: United States - Showroom - R900

It looks very sexy to me. We are still waiting for 3rd party measurements like Stereophile or Soundstage /NRC. And we are still waiting for you to drive to Spokane, Washington to audition them.