Where to begin??

[mattsk8]

New to this site, and since I was about 5 years old I've been completely fascinated w/ stereos. My first experiance building speakers was taking some old speakers (don't even remember what they were) that my dad was throwing out and making new cabinets for em. I was about 12ish. They looked like crap when I was done!

I played w/ home stereos and got pretty big into car audio. Built a lot of (really good) sub boxes and eventually got into custom kitchen cabinet making so needless to say my woodworking skills have evolved from when I was 12 (I'm 35 now)!

I found this site while I was looking for answers to questions about my home theater receiver when I saw a lot of guys that had built their own speakers. This got me thinking...

I'd love to do this but I'm not sure where to begin. At first I was going to just build new cabinets and use the drivers and crossovers out of my older infinity towers that I use on my garage stereo. Then I got to reading that guys here are making their own crossovers! Don't know anything about this so I guess my first question is: where's a good place to go to begin to educate myself on this process? I know how much of a difference a crossover will make just based on my car audio experience and I would really rather do it right the first time! I do love quality sound and don't want to loose out because I skimped on the crossovers!

Next question is drivers. I love JL Audio's car audio and I actually get it wholesale. While I know I can get an 8 ohm sub, I don't think I'd be able to come up w/ 8 ohm mids or tweets from them. How in the world do you even begin to match drivers for home audio? Like, what would work w/ JL subs and are JL subs even a good choice for home audio? I was concidering an 8w0; don't want anything too power hungry cuz I don't want to have to spend a fortune on an external amp!

Last question (for now, I'm sure I'll have plenty more later!) is how do ohms work w/ home audio through a crossover? I know w/ car audio, if I wire 2 8 ohm subs in parallel I'll have a 4 ohm load coming out. So w/ a 3 way speaker set up (not saying I have to go this way, possibly 2 way, just looking for something w/ some good punch), if I run 3 8 ohm speakers wouldn't the receiver see a 2.6 ohm load, which would fry my receiver? How do you get around that?

Sorry about the long post and I know it's a lot to answer, but I have to start somewhere! Thanks for any help!!

Oh, just thought I should include that these will be strictly for music. I have a bar/pool table room in my basement that I'd like to build these for. I know music speakers probably are designed a bit different than speakers for home theater, but then again, I could be wrong!

 

[annunaki]

I guess it depends upon what you actually are looking to build. What application will it be used in? What are the expectations? What is your room size?

I would suggest educating yourself more with some of the speaker design books that are out there to help ensure you do things right from the beginning. Learning is paramount when it comes to this hobby/profession as EVERYTHING builds on top of the basic knowledge.

As for JL Audio, some of their subs do extremely well in the home environment. Check out some of my build threads in this area of the forum. I have used some of their drivers with great success.



As for speakers you can do better by purchasing raw drivers from places like Parts Express, Madisound, or Solen than what you would purchasing JL components.

Passive crossover design takes a lot of time to get right and to understand. For your first steps into speakers I would HIGHLY suggest building a kit that has been designed so you can get a better understanding of how things work.

After all the enclosure/cabinet is just as important as any other part of the speaker if not more so. If you build a kit speaker, you can make the enclosure anyway you want so long as your net volume ends up where needed.

 

[GranteedEV]

I'd love to do this but I'm not sure where to begin. At first I was going to just build new cabinets and use the drivers and crossovers out of my older infinity towers that I use on my garage stereo. Then I got to reading that guys here are making their own crossovers! Don't know anything about this so I guess my first question is: where's a good place to go to begin to educate myself on this process? I know how much of a difference a crossover will make just based on my car audio experience and I would really rather do it right the first time! I do love quality sound and don't want to loose out because I skimped on the crossovers!

You initial move on the infinities was a good one, as infinity tends to have quality drivers from what some people have measured, particularily off-axis which is important. A good idea would have been to first learn about building the right box

No regarding good sound, the easiest way is a digital active crossover: the drawback is that you will need an amplifier for each driver set (IE 1 per tweeter, 1 per mid, 1 per woofer) but the benefits outweigh that IMO especially for someone just starting out. A few active digital crossovers to consider include

Hypex DSP Plate Amps (currently on clearance for $500 a pair at diycable.com)
Behringer DCX2496
miniDSP
DEQX

Next question is drivers. I love JL Audio's car audio and I actually get it wholesale. While I know I can get an 8 ohm sub, I don't think I'd be able to come up w/ 8 ohm mids or tweets from them. How in the world do you even begin to match drivers for home audio? Like, what would work w/ JL subs and are JL subs even a good choice for home audio? I was concidering an 8w0; don't want anything too power hungry cuz I don't want to have to spend a fortune on an external amp!

JL has some very impressive subwoofer and woofer drivers, with ridiculous linear output. Modeling them in a program like Bassbox Pro or WinISD will give you a better feel for optimal enclosures. Remember that you usually want sensitivity around 87db or higher, so some ultra low sensitivity car audio drivers do not work. You also usually want low Fs, as some car audio drivers roll off quickly, whereas home woofer/sub drivers should extend deeper/

Again, Infinity drivers tend to be a nice place to start. Harman just has a lot of research poured into the those drivers.. there's a reason the Revel Salon2 is a revered loudspeaker. Messing with the stock crossovers can give you improvements in sound quality... IIRC infinity uses cheap electrolytic caps and iron core inductors, and runs their tweeters a bit hot.

Replace that with poly caps, air core inductors, and pad down the tweete
r a bit and you've possibly got a very nice speaker starting point. Throw in a very well braced and well damped box and you should be rather impressed.

Remember, you can't design a crossover, digital or not, by ear. It has to be done by measurements and calculations, because acoustic memory is unreliable. Driver selection too, can't be done randomly. You need to select the proper driver complements! I recommend starting with a two-way design if designing it yourself.

Last question (for now, I'm sure I'll have plenty more later!) is how do ohms work w/ home audio through a crossover? I know w/ car audio, if I wire 2 8 ohm subs in parallel I'll have a 4 ohm load coming out. So w/ a 3 way speaker set up (not saying I have to go this way, possibly 2 way, just looking for something w/ some good punch), if I run 3 8 ohm speakers wouldn't the receiver see a 2.6 ohm load, which would fry my receiver? How do you get around that?

Ohms are a unit of measuring impedance(AC Resistance). It is the the same concept in a car. Now if you want to run 3 8 ohm drivers together, you could wire them not only in parallel, but in series and series-parallel. It will help if you start with some decently sensitive woofers. Indeed, a 2.6 ohm load is unacceptable for any home speaker. There's innately something wrong if you find yourself designing a speaker with any signficant dips below 4 ohms.

Oh, just thought I should include that these will be strictly for music. I have a bar/pool table room in my basement that I'd like to build these for. I know music speakers probably are designed a bit different than speakers for home theater, but then again, I could be wrong!

Not necessarily. A great speaker is designed for accurate reproduction. There are many, many aspects of speaker design you need to understand before beginning any crossover design. Any speaker design will have its tradeoffs, so you'll find that some people weigh some aspects of home theater higher than some aspects of music, but a great music speaker should have no issue with home theater. What you don't want is to audition a speaker at store, be impressed by overemphasised bass and hot treble, bring it home, and then find you can't hear the voices during movies.

 

[Swerd]

New to this site, and since I was about 5 years old I've been completely fascinated w/ stereos. My first experiance building speakers was taking some old speakers (don't even remember what they were) that my dad was throwing out and making new cabinets for em. I was about 12ish. They looked like crap when I was done!

I played w/ home stereos and got pretty big into car audio. Built a lot of (really good) sub boxes and eventually got into custom kitchen cabinet making so needless to say my woodworking skills have evolved from when I was 12 (I'm 35 now)!

First of all, welcome to AH . And if you're interested in DIY speaker building, make that a double welcome .

It looks like you already know plenty about woodworking and will have no problem with making speaker cabinets. Your experience with car audio has probably taught you the basics of how woofers interact with cabinets, and how to go about designing a cabinet for a given woofer. So you've got a very good start.

A real good way to start is to buy or borrow this book, Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden. It starts with a few chapters on how to design sealed and ported cabinets for proper bass performance. Some of this may be review for you, but it never hurts to cover it all in an organized way. For example, it covers how to know if a woofer should be mounted in a sealed or ported cabinet. And most important, it discusses a number of things to consider when tuning the bass performance. But that's only the beginning.

But as you already suspect, the real benefit with DIY speaker building comes from getting the midrange right with good crossovers. Designing the crossover comes only after you've selected drivers, and designed a cabinet for bass performance. Of course, you have to understand why some woofers and tweeters can pair together well, and why others don't before you can make a good crossover. At first this can seem a bit like a dog chasing its tail, but there is a method to the madness.

And to do all this right, you must have access to audio measuring gear (microphone and computer software) to help you measure the real performance of your drivers (as opposed to the manufacturers specs which can easily vary by 10%) mounted in your cabinet. Once you have that info, the software can help you design a suitable crossover. None of this is push-button or easy. It takes more than buying all the gear, because there is a lot of experience involved. That's why there are so many successful DIY designs or kits available on the net. Building an established proved design is probably the best way to get started rather than trying to make your own design.

There are several internet vendors who specialize in DIY speaker building: Madisound, Parts Express, Zalytron

Next question is drivers. I love JL Audio's car audio and I actually get it wholesale. While I know I can get an 8 ohm sub, I don't think I'd be able to come up w/ 8 ohm mids or tweets from them. How in the world do you even begin to match drivers for home audio? Like, what would work w/ JL subs and are JL subs even a good choice for home audio? I was concidering an 8w0; don't want anything too power hungry cuz I don't want to have to spend a fortune on an external amp!

The short answer to your question, is you can mix woofers and tweeters with different impedance. The crossover can account for the difference. Impedance varies with the frequency, and that is one of the things you have to measure with your drivers in your cabinet before designing the crossover.

Last question (for now, I'm sure I'll have plenty more later!) is how do ohms work w/ home audio through a crossover? I know w/ car audio, if I wire 2 8 ohm subs in parallel I'll have a 4 ohm load coming out. So w/ a 3 way speaker set up (not saying I have to go this way, possibly 2 way, just looking for something w/ some good punch), if I run 3 8 ohm speakers wouldn't the receiver see a 2.6 ohm load, which would fry my receiver? How do you get around that?

If I understand what you're asking, a 3-way speaker is not really 3 drivers wired in parallel. There are crossovers between the woofer and mid, and between the mid and tweeter. So for any point in the audio spectrum, one or possibly two drivers are working at the same time.

For simplicity, think of a 2-way crossed over at 2,000 Hz. At 200 Hz, only the woofer is working. At 5,000 Hz only the tweeter is working. At the crossover frequency of 2,000 Hz plus or minus about one octave, about 1,000 to 4,000 Hz, both drivers are working, but not equally except at 2,000 Hz. So if both drivers have a true impedance of 8 ohms, your whole speaker will also.

All this and much more is explained in that book.

 

[mattsk8]

I guess it depends upon what you actually are looking to build. What application will it be used in? What are the expectations? What is your room size?

Room is about 20' x 12'.

A good idea would have been to first learn about building the right box.

Exactly. This is where I need to educate myself for starters. For instance, I know how to calculate cubic feet for woofers and about adding for the woofer depth and all for a sealed enclosure, but I don't know how to design a ported enclosure or more what goes into the part of the cabinet the mid/tweet would go in.

No regarding good sound, the easiest way is a digital active crossover: the drawback is that you will need an amplifier for each driver set (IE 1 per tweeter, 1 per mid, 1 per woofer) but the benefits outweigh that IMO especially for someone just starting out. A few active digital crossovers to consider include

Hypex DSP Plate Amps (currently on clearance for $500 a pair at diycable.com)
Behringer DCX2496
miniDSP
DEQX

Unfortunately at the moment, doing this is going to be out of my budget. In the future I definitely want to go this route, but for now I'll keep it simple (or cheap !) and try to design a pair of towers that I can run off my old Kenwood (2 channel stereo) receiver. If I successfully build something I'm happy w/, then I'll go all in!!

Again, Infinity drivers tend to be a nice place to start. Harman just has a lot of research poured into the those drivers.. there's a reason the Revel Salon2 is a revered loudspeaker. Messing with the stock crossovers can give you improvements in sound quality... IIRC infinity uses cheap electrolytic caps and iron core inductors, and runs their tweeters a bit hot.

Replace that with poly caps, air core inductors, and pad down the tweete
r a bit and you've possibly got a very nice speaker starting point. Throw in a very well braced and well damped box and you should be rather impressed.

The only thing I don't like about the infinitys is the woofer. I love the mids and highs they reproduce but the woofers seem like they blow easy. I haven't blown them yet but at high volumes they seem to bottom out easily (don't know the technical term for that, but what I mean is they 'pop' if theyre playing to much bass). Pretty sure the Infinity speakers I have are the RS4.

Is there any way around the problem I have w/ them while using the same driver to achieve better bass w/out worrying about blowing the woofer?

Also, thank you for the idea on modifying the og crossovers!! That's for sure the route I'll go. Seems like that would familiarize me w/ crossovers and get me started!

First of all, welcome to AH . And if you're interested in DIY speaker building, make that a double welcome .

Extremely interested!! One more hobby for the wife to resent me for ! J/K, I actually have an incredibly understanding wife!

A real good way to start is to buy or borrow this book, Speaker Building 201 by Ray Alden. It starts with a few chapters on how to design sealed and ported cabinets for proper bass performance. Some of this may be review for you, but it never hurts to cover it all in an organized way. For example, it covers how to know if a woofer should be mounted in a sealed or ported cabinet. And most important, it discusses a number of things to consider when tuning the bass performance. But that's only the beginning.

Thanks! I'll get this book for sure!

But as you already suspect, the real benefit with DIY speaker building comes from getting the midrange right with good crossovers. Designing the crossover comes only after you've selected drivers, and designed a cabinet for bass performance. Of course, you have to understand why some woofers and tweeters can pair together well, and why others don't before you can make a good crossover. At first this can seem a bit like a dog chasing its tail, but there is a method to the madness.

And to do all this right, you must have access to audio measuring gear (microphone and computer software) to help you measure the real performance of your drivers (as opposed to the manufacturers specs which can easily vary by 10%) mounted in your cabinet. Once you have that info, the software can help you design a suitable crossover. None of this is push-button or easy. It takes more than buying all the gear, because there is a lot of experience involved. That's why there are so many successful DIY designs or kits available on the net. Building an established proved design is probably the best way to get started rather than trying to make your own design.

I do understand that it's not just a box w/ speakers in it! I really appreciate all the info, thanks for taking the time to reply! I'll get that book and begin my research. Hopefully I'll be ready to (re)build my infinitys in a month or two! Good project for the winter blues!!

Thanks again!!

 

[GranteedEV]

Is there any way around the problem I have w/ them while using the same driver to achieve better bass w/out worrying about blowing the woofer?

Ahh, it sounds like you bottom the woofer when the bass/volume goes up. Whether you can get more out of it depends on the driver, and the only way we can know for sure is to know a bit about the crossover and see some measurements and T/S parameteres on the driver taken in free air. It may in fact need replacement, from the sounds of it, but if it's just being utilized poorly, a transmission line or something may get better bass extension.

For starters I'd like you to run the speaker through some 75-95db test tones. Does it bottom mainly on extremely low bass, or even around 50hz at high volume?

I recommend picking up a dayton woofer tester and a quality calibrated mic/soundcard (or the upcoming dayton omnimic for DIYers, which is USB and doesn't require calibration as it's pre calibrated). You should do this before you commit to any speaker design.

Alternatively, if that too sounds like too expensive, then your only bet is to pick up a kit / build to a skilled designer's spec. There's some nice one's out there. (cue ER18 reccomendation in 3..2..)

 

[mattsk8]

Ahh, it sounds like you bottom the woofer when the bass/volume goes up. Whether you can get more out of it depends on the driver, and the only way we can know for sure is to know a bit about the crossover and see some measurements and T/S parameteres on the driver taken in free air. It may in fact need replacement, from the sounds of it, but if it's just being utilized poorly, a transmission line or something may get better bass extension.

It just seems flimsy if that makes sense. The woofers sound great and produce good sound (to me) at low to mild volumes but if you try to go over 1/3 volume the woofers are working o/t! For example, if I was playing a Rolling Stones song they would probably perform decently at higher volumes, but if I played some Dire Straights songs (heavier bass guitar), they would start to suffer a bit. I guess they play straight bass punches well but if they get a combo of bass guitar w/ some punches they start to bottom out. Basicly I could surely blow them to smitherines w/ Pink Floyd Welcome To The Machine!!

For starters I'd like you to run the speaker through some high volume test tones. Does it bottom mainly on extremely low bass, or even around 50hz at high volume?

I recommend picking up a dayton woofer tester and a quality calibrated mic/soundcard (or the upcoming dayton omnimic for DIYers, which is USB and doesn't require calibration as it's pre calibrated). You should do this before you commit to any speaker design.

Alternatively, if that too sounds like too expensive, then your only bet is to pick up a kit / build to a skilled designer's spec. There's some nice one's out there. (cue ER18 reccomendation in 3..2..)

I don't mind doing that at all! I think getting the beginner one is probably my best bet as you said just so I don't have too much math to do!

The main reason I don't want to spend a fortune on external amps yet is because I don't want to blindly spend money on something I'm not overly familiar w/. I absolutely don't mean to say I don't trust your judgement, I just like to have it figured out before I make an investment.

Thanks again for the input!!

 

[mattsk8]

So, I definitely plan on getting the book and the tester, but how do you begin to pick drivers? For instance, I don't want to start buying speakers till I get the sound I want, know what I mean! I like the sound of silk dome tweeters, but I've also heard some titanium dome tweets that sound pretty good too. And from what I've read here this is phase one, right? Because the crossovers are based on the tests from the drivers and the cabinets are also based on the drivers.

Just curious where to begin here. Does the book cover selecting a driver? I would think this would be tough just because (for instance) some people love Klipsch speakers, I think they're too screamy. Some people don't like Polk Audios, I was happy w/ the towers I had.

How do you begin to select something that works for your personal ears?

 

[GranteedEV]

How do you begin to select something that works for your personal ears?

Well, ask yourself this

"Do I like the sound of real life, and want my speaker to emulate that?"'

If so, then you don't need to worry about making a speaker sound good to your ears, you need to focus on making it sound real to anyone's ears. It's all in finding driver complements which work together and having the right crossover. Metal drivers are nice because of how revealing they can be, but in turn often require low crossover frequencies / better tweeter. Zaph's website is a good one to read up on some drivers' measurements... he loves his metal drivers.

Klipsch speakers are horn loaded and probably not really in most optimal way, which can lead to horn shoutyness. They also probably have a crossover where the tweeter is run a bit hot.

For driver selection, tweeters with relatively low resonant frequencies (1000 hz or lower), and mid drivers with higher breakup (5500 hz or higher), and relatively low resonant frequencies (less than 100hz) and woofers with lots of linear throw and high breakup (2000 or higher) are a good place to look, at least as far as being "foolproof".

I can honestly say that if you plan on even attempting to design it yourself, stick to a 2-way speaker (perhaps a MTM transmission line.... everyone loves these). If you're intent on a 3-way, I very much recommend going active, if at least for that crossover. Otherwise build a proven design... perhaps the Jim Holtz Statements or Zaph ZDT3.5. A lot of experience and time went into those designs, not just a case of "buy drivers and make a crossover"

 

[mattsk8]

Well, ask yourself this

"Do I like the sound of real life, and want my speaker to emulate that?"

Absolutely! I know what you mean for sure. I just want to get it right the first time! After I posted the one about the silk dome verses titanium tweets, I listened to the Infinitys in my garage then listened to the JBLs in my house. Infinitys are silk dome and JBLs are titanium. JBLs take the cake for sure, hands down. So I guess, to me, I would say I like the sound of the titanium dome tweets better. That's also what I have in my car (MB Quartz components w/ titanium tweets) and I love the way they reproduce sound. I just think they give a lot more detail.

For driver selection, tweeters with relatively low resonant frequencies (1000 hz or lower), and mid drivers with higher breakup (5500 hz or higher), and relatively low resonant frequencies (less than 100hz) and woofers with lots of linear throw and high breakup (2000 or higher) are a good place to look, at least as far as being "foolproof".

I can honestly say that if you plan on even attempting to design it yourself, stick to a 2-way speaker (perhaps a MTM transmission line.... everyone loves these). If you're intent on a 3-way, I very much recommend going active, if at least for that crossover. Otherwise build a proven design... perhaps the Jim Holtz Statements or Zaph ZDT3.5. A lot of experience and time went into those designs, not just a case of "buy drivers and make a crossover"

The only reason I was concidering a 3 way is I want a bigger woofer. I've never heard good bass from a 6 1/2", I want a bit more punch. I'm afraid that if I did a 2-way w/ an 8" (or possibly a 10") woofer, it wouldn't sound right but that's coming from me who hasn't ever attempted this before. I know I could do a 2 way w/ a powered sub, but I was hoping to avoid that.

I guess based on that, would you still recommend a 2-way for simplicity over the 3-way? Or should I just dive in and go the 3-way route? (Almost sounds perverted !)

One other question- what gains do I get by using multiple amps to power a 3-way? Only reason I'm asking is aren't I essentially bi (or in this case tri) amping them? And I posted in another area about wether or not to bi-amp my JBLs and general concensus was that bi-amping them w/ my Yamaha receiver wasn't worth it.

I've never used an external home audio amp, but is it maybe so you have the ability to independantly adjust the gains on each driver in the cabinet?

 

[skyline_123]

I can honestly say that if you plan on even attempting to design it yourself, stick to a 2-way speaker (perhaps a MTM transmission line.... everyone loves these). If you're intent on a 3-way, I very much recommend going active, if at least for that crossover. Otherwise build a proven design... perhaps the Jim Holtz Statements or Zaph ZDT3.5. A lot of experience and time went into those designs, not just a case of "buy drivers and make a crossover"

+1 on that comment. I think for the beginner DIY'er, building a proven design is just as rewarding as getting all the gear and designing your own. Mainly due to the fact that one's first design probably won't be as good as a design that's been proven. I think the most important thing about all of this is that when you do build a set, make sure to document everything and show us pictures of your work .


Check out the Parts Express collection of DIY designs or Home Theater Guide's list of designs. Zaph Audio and Denise Murphy's websites are excellent too.

Good luck with your search and welcome to the forums!

 

[mattsk8]

Thanks for all the incredible help!! I definitely will keep my progress posted! Just got to get the ducks in a row before I pull the trigger if you know what I mean!

I think the first step is to get the book and read it. Then I'll start the design...

 

[GranteedEV]

I don't think Dennis murphy would appreciate being called denise...

Absolutely! I know what you mean for sure. I just want to get it right the first time! After I posted the one about the silk dome verses titanium tweets, I listened to the Infinitys in my garage then listened to the JBLs in my house. Infinitys are silk dome and JBLs are titanium. JBLs take the cake for sure, hands down. So I guess, to me, I would say I like the sound of the titanium dome tweets better. That's also what I have in my car (MB Quartz components w/ titanium tweets) and I love the way they reproduce sound. I just think they give a lot more detail.

and you may find a silk dome that wipes the floor with the JBLs in terms of detail. Don't hold too much bias based on material, it's only one aspect of a tweeter's design. Buying solely based on material will often cause you to overpay. It's all about end performance. The 3/4" hiquphon OW2 for example is a soft dome tweeter and yet it's considered among many people's favorite tweeters for its ability to extract detail without sounding harsh.

Further.. there's a few things wrong with what you said

1) THe garage and house are different environments. the tweeter's interaction with its environment has a VERY strong effect on what you hear. an environment is capable of smearing detail.
2) a crossover is not a brick wall filter. When you listen to a speaker, even if you focus on the highs, you're still going to hear the interaction of the drivers. What you think is a preference for metal dome may just be a preference for a certain effect of the crossover.
3) the comparision wasn't level matched or blind.
4) The sample size is too small. You'd need to blindly listen to like 50 level matched tweeters of each material and then read your results afterwards to really make a judgement.

The only reason I was concidering a 3 way is I want a bigger woofer. I've never heard good bass from a 6 1/2", I want a bit more punch. I'm afraid that if I did a 2-way w/ an 8" (or possibly a 10") woofer, it wouldn't sound right but that's coming from me who hasn't ever attempted this before. I know I could do a 2 way w/ a powered sub, but I was hoping to avoid that.

Any speaker, 2 or 3 or 4 way, with a powered sub is still always recommended. This is because the best placement for good imaging is often poor placement for bass integration in a room.

You'd be surprised how much bass a great 3 driver, 2-way speaker can do. 6.5 inch drivers are very capable, particulary the high end european ones, although that's not to sell asian drivers short as they're a good bang for buck.

check out this build for example:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68531
That borders on a genuine full range speaker with extension down to 34hz... and it's a 2-way!
This uses a 15" woofer... and is very much a two way speaker which people love!

I guess based on that, would you still recommend a 2-way for simplicity over the 3-way? Or should I just dive in and go the 3-way route? (Almost sounds perverted !)

2 way if passive plain and simple. I still recommend a proven design.
3-way if building a proven design to a tee. There's many awesome ones out there, and from the graphs you get a feel for how "good" they are.
3-way if you go active... you can go passive on the 2-way and then pair it with a woofer section actively.

One other question- what gains do I get by using multiple amps to power a 3-way? Only reason I'm asking is aren't I essentially bi (or in this case tri) amping them? And I posted in another area about wether or not to bi-amp my JBLs and general concensus was that bi-amping them w/ my Yamaha receiver wasn't worth it.

That's passive bi amping with a receiver. It's totally pointless with minimal advantage. You're better off getting a powerful home amp like an emotiva XPA-2

Active bi-amping completely removes a passive crossover from the equation. It improves sensitivity, takes away a lot of complexity, and with the use of a digital active filter, is infinitely tweakable with the press of a button. You don't necessarily need the most powerful amps in the world, because of the improved efficiency. You just need a fair about of amp channels. The linkwitz orion is a full active speaker that uses 4 channels per speaker, for a total of 8 channels. Instead of a bunch of expensive amps, it actually just uses a 12 channel, 60 watt ATI6012 amplifier. The four extra channels are wasted in that design but can be used to power other speakers if desired.

the hypex dsp is actually an amplifier (2 x 100w into a 4 ohm load) and a digital active crossover(2 or 3-way... need one more amp for the bass section if you decide to go 3way). very useful IMO, and it's built into the speaker as a plate amp.

A 3-way passive speaker just has too many issues to be worthwhile.

I've never used an external home audio amp, but is it maybe so you have the ability to independantly adjust the gains on each driver in the cabinet?

Not necessarily at the amplifier level. You could control driver levels at the crossover, for example a Behringer DCX2496.

 

[skyline_123]

I don't think Dennis murphy would appreciate being called denise...

Ah, crap! My mom's name is Denise.

Sorry Dennis.

 

[mattsk8]

+1 on that comment. I think for the beginner DIY'er, building a proven design is just as rewarding as getting all the gear and designing your own. Mainly due to the fact that one's first design probably won't be as good as a design that's been proven. I think the most important thing about all of this is that when you do build a set, make sure to document everything and show us pictures of your work .


Check out the Parts Express collection of DIY designs or Home Theater Guide's list of designs. Zaph Audio and Denise Murphy's websites are excellent too.

Good luck with your search and welcome to the forums!

Thanks for a lot of things! I just spent over an hour reading through your build thread! If you don't mind, I have a couple questions...

Do you plan on making grills for those? If so, I can't wait to see! I have 4 kids and could just imagine them going to work on em!!

I read that you were listening to them already. Have you listened since you got the crossovers done? Maybe you mentioned that and I missed it.

Hopefully you don't mind me asking but, how much do you have into the drivers and crossovers? I need to know just what extent I need to prepair the wife for !

 

[GranteedEV]

Thanks for a lot of things! I just spent over an hour reading through your build thread! If you don't mind, I have a couple questions...

Do you plan on making grills for those? If so, I can't wait to see! I have 4 kids and could just imagine them going to work on em!!

I read that you were listening to them already. Have you listened since you got the crossovers done? Maybe you mentioned that and I missed it.

Hopefully you don't mind me asking but, how much do you have into the drivers and crossovers? I need to know just what extent I need to prepair the wife for !

Go with a vintage mesh grille... like this >.>
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/169623-sonus-faber-amati-diy.html

 

[mattsk8]

First off let me say thanks again! You seem to be a fountain of audio wisdom and I really appreciate the advice!

4) The sample size is too small. You'd need to blindly listen to like 50 level matched tweeters of each material and then read your results afterwards to really make a judgement.

Where do you (I) find the resources to do that? Are you saying go to a speaker retailer and listen?

check out this build for example:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68531
That borders on a genuine full range speaker with extension down to 34hz... and it's a 2-way!
This uses a 15" woofer... and is very much a two way speaker which people love!.

I'm sold! When you say it uses a 15" woofer, are you combining the 2 7" woofers?

Edit: Nevermind, feel kinda retarded! Just saw that was a whole other thread! I think I like the first one. A 15" might be a bit much!

I look forward to this. Now I just need to find drivers... I've read (and I think you said) JL Audios are decent. The only reason I keep going back to this is simply because I'm cheap and I get them wholesale (a good friend of mine owns a truck accessories shop). That and I'm incredibly happy w/ the ones I've owned. Or should I stick w/ the ones he recommends for that design? I know that may sound like a dumb question, but just throwing it out there. Also, I didn't see a recommended tweeter for that design. Did I overlook it?

When you say I need to test the drivers to pair up a set for a build, how do you do that? Wouldn't you need a bottomless fountain of speakers to play w/? Maybe that's why you say go w/ a designed build? My only fear is (like I've done many times in the past), spending a bunch of money and not being happy w/ the end result...

 

[GranteedEV]

Where do you (I) find the resources to do that? Are you saying go to a speaker retailer and listen?

You don't have the resources to do it with your ears, so trust the measurements and the designers.

I look forward to this. Now I just need to find drivers... I've read (and I think you said) JL Audios are decent. The only reason I keep going back to this is simply because I'm cheap and I get them wholesale (a good friend of mine owns a truck accessories shop).

While they're certainly well designed bass drivers, I don't know if you'll be able to find much good use for them. Certainly not in any passive build. An active build may better take advantage of their low bass performance. I'd consider four 13W7 based subwoofers, spread across the room and crossed at 60hz.

Or should I stick w/ the ones he recommends for that design?

The crossover is for that driver complement in that particular baffle. It would be a disaster to change these things.

Also, I didn't see a recommended tweeter for that design. Did I overlook it?

There were two recommended tweeters in that particular design. A ribbon and a soft dome. THe crossovers for each tweeter recommendation, as you can see, are different.

When you say I need to test the drivers to pair up a set for a build, how do you do that? Wouldn't you need a bottomless fountain of speakers to play w/? Maybe that's why you say go w/ a designed build? My only fear is (like I've done many times in the past), spending a bunch of money and not being happy w/ the end result...

Then go digitally bi-or-tri amped with some versatile drivers... you can go pick up a pair of JL 8W7s and then figure out where to go from there with research.

Build the most rigid, low diffraction box you can.

Then get your measurements and tweak with the digital filters.

This will give you endless control over the design process without the complexity of passive crossover design. It may be a PITA waste of time, but at least you'll know that you're not "Stuck" with the "end result.

It may never sound as good or real as someone else's design, but if you're not willing to take that leap of faith in proper speaker building theory(which most DIY designers follow, unlike some big box brands), it's your best bet. Most of the better DIY speakers aren't designed to please a customer and make a sale, they're designed to reproduce a source well. You may find that the best DIY speakers in the world simply don't impress you, because you've got an expectation that things should sound "like this" even if they're not supposed to.

 

[skyline_123]

Thanks for a lot of things! I just spent over an hour reading through your build thread! If you don't mind, I have a couple questions...

Do you plan on making grills for those? If so, I can't wait to see! I have 4 kids and could just imagine them going to work on em!!

I read that you were listening to them already. Have you listened since you got the crossovers done? Maybe you mentioned that and I missed it.

Hopefully you don't mind me asking but, how much do you have into the drivers and crossovers? I need to know just what extent I need to prepair the wife for !

My initial plans for the grills involved gluing these grill magnets under the surface of the front baffle and grill frame on the four corners. I wanted to then bondo over them to completely hide the magnets and cover the grill frame with this fabric.

This may be more information than you need but I'll try and explain it anyway. To construct the grills, cut out a piece of wood that's roughly the same size as the front baffle. Leave a little overhang and clean it up later with a flush trim bit. Once the grill piece is cut roughly the same size, lay it over the baffle and drill 4 small holes in each corner. These holes serve two purposes. One, they act as a guide to screw the grill piece to the baffle so you can use the flush bit and trim all the overhand and Two, they act as a guide when countersinking the magnet holes with the forstner bit and will ensure all 8 magnets will line up properly once the grill is put on. When using the forstner bits, drill the holes slightly deeper than the thickness of the magnet to account for the glue so that the top surface of the magnet will still sit under the surface of the baffle. Once the glue has dried, bondo can be added over them and sand smooth. This will completely hide the magnets when showing off the naked drivers to your friends. The other things left to do are rounding over the edges of grill (if desired), cutting out the center of your grill piece to make it more of a grill frame and cover it with fabric.

Again, probably more information than you needed. I however, skipped this step because I rushed things a bit and painted the speakers before remembering they needed grills.

I listened to these for about a month before disassembling them but didn't want to comment too much because I didn't have any acoustic stuffing in them and there was no gasket material on the mounting surfaces for the drivers. That being said, I was still VERY pleased with the level of detail achieved and the amazing bass these produce. Depending on where you are coming from, they probably won't satisfy the die hard movie buffs who thrive on compromising the structural integrity of the house with explosions. But I can assure you, when listening to these two speakers alone, I could not wipe the smile off my face because of how close to full range they are. In fact, just thinking about it makes me anxious to return home and get these things finished.

I can't remember the exact figure, but I probably have close to $800 in them. I could have saved money by choosing different crossover components, ports and other miscellaneous stuff, not to mention I used the ribbon tweeters. If you use the dome tweeters, it drops the price about $70. It was one of those things where I was already committed to quite a bit of money so to bump it up another $100 bucks or so to upgrade some of the components wasn't too hard.

I look forward to this. Now I just need to find drivers... I've read (and I think you said) JL Audios are decent. The only reason I keep going back to this is simply because I'm cheap and I get them wholesale (a good friend of mine owns a truck accessories shop). That and I'm incredibly happy w/ the ones I've owned. Or should I stick w/ the ones he recommends for that design?

No need to look for other drivers. You'll need to follow Dennis's component list in Swerd's write up exactly and not deviate from any of the components. Each crossover is specifically designed to work with those particular speakers in that particular enclosure.

 

[Swerd]

I just caught up reading this thread. skyline_123 and GranteedEV have given lots of good advice.

If you want a clean copy of the detailed write up for the ER18 MTM design that skyline_123 built, PM me with your email address.

When I was starting DIY, I of course got a Parts Express catalog and wondered all the things you wondered. How do you know which drivers sound good?

Something that helped me a lot was attending a local meeting of DIY speaker builders. Look on the Parts Express Tech Talk Forum for announcements of DIY meetings that may be near you. After one or two of those, I had a much better idea of what drivers were widely used by others. Most of that info I would have never learned any other way. Some general brands that I like:

Dayton (Parts Express house brand) Reference Series (RS)
SEAS prestige line - all their woofers & tweeters are excellent & less expensive that the SEAS Excel line
Aurum Cantus woofers and ribbon tweeters
Morel dome tweeters but not their woofers
Tang Band
SB speakers (a less expensive brand sold by Madisound)

But more important, I realized that with proper cabinet design (don't try to tune to the bass lower than the driver can handle, and keep the Qts low) and crossover design, even cheap drivers can sound great. A good example is the Parts Express BR-1 kit. It uses the least expensive Dayton drivers in a 2-way bookshelf design that is very inexpensive. Download the Owners' Manual for this kit, it is a very good introduction to crossover design.

Try not to generalize about speaker cone materials. Sometimes it is true and other times it isn't. Like the difference between metal and fabric dome tweeters. Just because a tweeter looks shiny, doesn't mean it always sounds bright. You can adjust all that in the crossover.

Another very good online source of information can be found in the The Speaker Building Bible sticky thread at the Tech Talk forum.