DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[quadriverfalls]

Some of the comments that got to me are ones like from this erstwhile and continued supporter who swallowed it so deep, Linda Lovelace would've choked.

My god, what has he made right? Not Sean's situation. Not Pu's. Not all the folks who payed to be beta testers. Not that fellow who posted here and bought a speaker from that mysterious friend in California who was getting divorced and had to sell his stuff but never received his speaker (I think Shifty sold it at least twice). I've seen his best. You've all seen his best. It's not very good. I can't imagine Quad is so desperate to cook at another GTG featuring Humbly Bumbly. Disgusting.

Chu.... I don't know that I ever pissed in your Wheaties, but that post was to basically to say hey folks, give the guy a break for a second. He's just gone through some major heart surgery, he's said that the drivers would be made available and that he would address it more when he was feeling better. Now, I understand that folks get tired of the excuses (someone always sick, in a car accident, the dog's about to die, the only person capable to build the speaker is hurt etc.), but this time, we are talking about something that truly threatened the man's life.

I don't know about you, but I tend to error on the side of caution in that case and try to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I don't know, maybe it was my own brush with death recently. Frankly, I'm quite lucky to be alive to type this after what I went through recently, so maybe my view is skewed a bit. But, I can tell you.... it's got absolutely nothing to do with my cooking at some gtg. Shame on you for even saying something like that.

 

[quadriverfalls]

I'm not so sure about that. I like the Quad-man. He's a good guy. I've met him several times in person, but he's straight up on crack with some of his latest posts praising MLS on the whole spare parts fiasco.

Expecting spare parts for a discontinued speaker isn't an outlandish request. Other manufacturers do it. It just takes a little forethought and planning on the part of the company. You establish a failure rate and make sure that your last order of parts for the speaker will get you enough spares to cover your failure rate plus some extras. Of course this doesn't work for VA321 because they don't seem to do any planning. Instead they ambush people by discontinuing products or veneers without any warning randomly, so it doesn't surprise me that planning for a spare parts cache doesn't get any consideration.

Even back when I was still drinking MLS's Kool-Aid I complained loudly and more than once about their uncharacteristically poor handling of product discontinuation and phase out. A product would go out of stock never to return without so much as a whisper. This left people high and dry who were buying a system piecemeal and actually wanted matching veneers.

I understand what you're saying Seth and frankly, agree with it (except for being on the crack part - other meds - absolutely, but not crack). And honestly, not having anything Rocket, I'm not faced with the possibility of being without parts, so I should probably have kept my big mouth shut on this one.

But, I was trying to compare it to my aging 1998 Oldsmobile Bravada. Obviously GM no longer supports the brand at all. Aftermarket parts manufacturers are also phasing out older Bravada specific parts as we get farther and farther away from the manufacture date. So, my ability to get geniune OEM parts (which I traditionally like to do) is becoming very problematic at best. And there will come a time where used parts may be the only option. Not unlike an older discontinued speaker....

 

[quadriverfalls]

I am not around AV123's forum much anymore - being banned tends to do that - but the times that I have gone in there I've gotten the impression that there are only a scattering of old-timers and a lot of very new members (folks who either weren't present prior to last year's six-month shut-down or were not there for long). The really long-time members - folks who supported the company for years - have become pretty rare. A few "old-timers" still post there, but their posts have changed. Quad is an example: he has made a few really excellent posts recently about how the forum has changed. He was never a traditional "fanboy" supporter, but he was always supportive of Mark and the company. Read his posts over there, and I think you'll see that he recognizes the situation and has not granted Mark redemption.

Thanks gonk.... finally someone who sees things clearly and calls it like it is without throwing in some biased slam or innuendo. I am one of the original "old timers." I have followed and supported Mark and AV123 for years. I have made hundreds of friends across the country (many of which I've met in person) thanks to what the AV123 forum used to be all about. That doesn't mean that I'm disalusioned about what has transpired in the last couple of years however. I feel awful about what has happened (and not happened in the case of the raffles) to a very large number of folks. Mark doesn't get a free pass from me untill all raffles are fully "funded" with interest and every single item already paid for is delivered and/or refund requested given.

I've said that many times on many different forums and I mean it.

 

[T2T]

Chu.... I don't know that I ever pissed in your Wheaties, but that post was to basically to say hey folks, give the guy a break for a second. He's just gone through some major heart surgery, he's said that the drivers would be made available and that he would address it more when he was feeling better. Now, I understand that folks get tired of the excuses (someone always sick, in a car accident, the dog's about to die, the only person capable to build the speaker is hurt etc.), but this time, we are talking about something that truly threatened the man's life.

I don't know about you, but I tend to error on the side of caution in that case and try to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I don't know, maybe it was my own brush with death recently. Frankly, I'm quite lucky to be alive to type this after what I went through recently, so maybe my view is skewed a bit. But, I can tell you.... it's got absolutely nothing to do with my cooking at some gtg. Shame on you for even saying something like that.

The benefit of a doubt has been given to Mark for quite a long time. Mark neglected to make many things right (when his health was better). Now, his heart has been ailing him and everyone is supposed to stand up and take notice, as well as put things on "hold" while he recovers? Possibly so. But, history still has proven that Mark neglects to fix things even when his health is on better terms.

Finally, why did it take 3+ months for the doctors to make a proper diagnosis of his condition and get 2 stents installed in his artery? A few weeks back, Bill Clinton enters the hospital with chest pains and he gets his stents put in place within a few hours.

 

[quadriverfalls]

The benefit of a doubt has been given to Mark for quite a long time. Mark neglected to make many things right (when his health was better). Now, his heart has been ailing him and everyone is supposed to stand up and take notice, as well as put things on "hold" while he recovers? Possibly so. But, history still has proven that Mark neglects to fix things even when his health is on better terms.

Finally, why did it take 3+ months for the doctors to make a proper diagnosis of his condition and get 2 stents installed in his artery? A few weeks back, Bill Clinton enters the hospital with chest pains and he gets his stents put in place within a few hours.

Understood T2T.... kind of like the boy who cried wolf syndrome. And I FULLY appreciate where you are coming from. But, like I said.... maybe it was my own brush with death recently that gives me pause. But still, I'd like to think that I'm a stand up enough guy to give someone a bit of a break in that condition whether I went through what I did or not.

As for his doctors not finding the real problem before.... maybe this is a new condition or one that's become this way recently. Obviously, I have no idea so the question is sort of rhetorical.

 

[Stereodude]

But, I was trying to compare it to my aging 1998 Oldsmobile Bravada. Obviously GM no longer supports the brand at all. Aftermarket parts manufacturers are also phasing out older Bravada specific parts as we get farther and farther away from the manufacture date. So, my ability to get geniune OEM parts (which I traditionally like to do) is becoming very problematic at best. And there will come a time where used parts may be the only option. Not unlike an older discontinued speaker....

Perhaps, but a speaker shouldn't wear out with regular use. A car does. That fact doesn't make it that hard to believe that after 12 years some spare parts would dry up. At some point there's so few of the vehicles left on the road that the market for spare parts is not profitable so people will abandon it. As speakers age the number of them still in use probably doesn't decrease much, and certainly doesn't drop like it does in the case of a car.

Further, pretty every part on your car can be swapped with the part used on the Blazer or Jimmy (effectively identical vehicles), so I don't see how you're really left with no parts.

 

[quadriverfalls]

Perhaps, but a speaker shouldn't wear out with regular use. A car does. That fact doesn't make it that hard to believe that after 12 years some spare parts would dry up. At some point there's so few of the vehicles left on the road that the market for spare parts is not profitable so people will abandon it. As speakers age the number of them still in use probably doesn't decrease much, and certainly doesn't drop like it does in the case of a car.

Further, pretty every part on your car can be swapped with the part used on the Blazer or Jimmy (effectively identical vehicles), so I don't see how you're really left with no parts.

Yeah, maybe the car analogy wasn't the best. And like I said, with no dog in the hunt I should have kept my mouth shut I suppose. But, you've been around me enough times.... you KNOW how hard it is for me to do that.

 

[BWG707]

Understood T2T.... kind of like the boy who cried wolf syndrome. And I FULLY appreciate where you are coming from. But, like I said.... maybe it was my own brush with death recently that gives me pause. But still, I'd like to think that I'm a stand up enough guy to give someone a bit of a break in that condition whether I went through what I did or not.

As for his doctors not finding the real problem before.... maybe this is a new condition or one that's become this way recently. Obviously, I have no idea so the question is sort of rhetorical.

You took the words out of my mouth. If someone cries wolf so many times of course people are going to question it. I do feel for the man in his immediate situation but just like someone said, if he doesn't do anything to correct the situation when he is healthy what's the excuse (situation) worth?

 

[cschang]

Understood T2T.... kind of like the boy who cried wolf syndrome. And I FULLY appreciate where you are coming from. But, like I said.... maybe it was my own brush with death recently that gives me pause. But still, I'd like to think that I'm a stand up enough guy to give someone a bit of a break in that condition whether I went through what I did or not.

John, I could understand how having your own brush with death would change your viewpoint on certain things.

Now, do you think what MLS has just experienced is the same as yours? Do you think it will change his viewpoint on things?

Aside from the raffles, the man as duped many people, and is continuing to do so to some very prominent forum figures. He has even told people that he has made and making good on the raffles...which is completely untrue.

Understanding all the issues, present and past, do you really think the guy deserves a break?

John...he took advantage of folks that were ill...and have since past away.

 

[Chu Gai]

Chu.... I don't know that I ever pissed in your Wheaties, but that post was to basically to say hey folks, give the guy a break for a second. He's just gone through some major heart surgery, he's said that the drivers would be made available and that he would address it more when he was feeling better. Now, I understand that folks get tired of the excuses (someone always sick, in a car accident, the dog's about to die, the only person capable to build the speaker is hurt etc.), but this time, we are talking about something that truly threatened the man's life.

You and I spoke once on the phone and it was a pleasant enough conversation. The posts you made where I found disagreement with I quoted earlier and I'll quote it again.

Mark.... you've said enough to satisfy even the most concerned person that might now or in the future need a replacement driver. You don't owe any more. You can only do so much. Do your best and then forget about the very few who might want to pick apart the nuances of a particular situation. There will always be some who want to look negatively on a situation no matter how hard you try to make things right.

To me Quad, Mark & Kyle (under the direction of MLS) provided a spin on the whole parts issue for discontinued products especially those that hail from the Pu era. He did nothing more than issue a statement that looked to buy time and quell the dissatisfaction that people were starting to experience as they found that their product which needed a driver was now an anchor. You provided cover, justification and a stamp of imprimatur for him thereby enabling his continued screwing of customers. An image of a man, fighting to make things right and do the right thing was cast. It's an image that only exists in a Bizarro universe and is at odds with just about everything he's done.

He was not rushed to a hospital to undergo emergency surgery because he fell to the ground. He had a planned procedure and was in and out in about a day or so. He had the same thing Clinton did, or the guy at the cleaners I go to, or my uncle, or my half-brother but please forgive me if I'd want to see a notarized doctor's note and whether the condition was life threatening or was to relieve chest pains as well as whether the degree of blockage was reported correctly. All medical procedures entail a certain amount of risk but this is fairly commonplace.

I don't know about you, but I tend to error on the side of caution in that case and try to give someone the benefit of the doubt. I don't know, maybe it was my own brush with death recently. Frankly, I'm quite lucky to be alive to type this after what I went through recently, so maybe my view is skewed a bit. But, I can tell you.... it's got absolutely nothing to do with my cooking at some gtg. Shame on you for even saying something like that.

Quad, I know the raffle situation doesn't sit well with you. But you've erred on the side of caution and given MLS the benefit of the doubt in a great number of areas. He in turn has relished it and plays you and everyone else who is willing to accept his stories as patsies. Yeah, the cooking at a GTG comment was a pretty low blow. At the time such a topic was mentioned over at AV451, I couldn't get over that you would even bring it up like it was the good old days and you were back at your favorite place like nothing happened. That's how I saw it. If I found that an old haunting ground had stolen money from charities and beneficiaries, ripped their employees off, not paid their suppliers, bad mouthed everybody and anybody when he thought it would never get repeated, and every other reprehensible thing that he has done, I'd pass on entering the place again. I'd encourage others not to enter it either and I'd put some effort into seeing that justice was done.

Hope you're doing better Quad. I'm even glad Shifty's doing better. I want him healthy because I want him to pay up. There's a series of reckonings coming and I want him there to respond and acknowledge each and every one.

 

[quadriverfalls]

John, I could understand how having your own brush with death would change your viewpoint on certain things.

Now, do you think what MLS has just experienced is the same as yours?

Obviously Curtis, his and my situations are/were quite different.

Do you think it will change his viewpoint on things?

I can't speak to anyone elses viewpoint other than my own.

Aside from the raffles, the man as duped many people, and is continuing to do so to some very prominent forum figures. He has even told people that he has made and making good on the raffles...which is completely untrue.

Understanding all the issues, present and past, do you really think the guy deserves a break?

Curtis, like I've said both in the forums and to you personally. Contrary to what some folks think, I'm not so close to the man to know for certain exactly what, why or how things happened. But, I do know that none of us are perfect or without skeletons in our own closets. Call me naive if you wish, but I tend to try not to throw stones lest my own glass house get shattered. With that being said, I believe in that particular instance, he should be allowed the opportunity to clarify where things stood on the issue once he recovered a bit.

John...he took advantage of folks that were ill...and have since past away.

I know that Curtis.... and I've said many times that I don't much like it. But, I'm not in a position to do anything about it. Believe me when I say, I wish I could waive a wand and make it so that none of it ever happened. But this was a separate situation and thought it deserved to be treated as such and not lumped in with any other.

 

[droht]

Not to pile on the Quadman, but I think this piece of Chu's post is extrememly relevant:

You provided cover, justification and a stamp of imprimatur for him thereby enabling his continued screwing of customers.

I think all the folks who have been around and are still on the av123 forum and over at avs acting like it is still "the good old days" are doing a disservice to the audio community. Credibility comes with numbers of posts and join dates on these forums, whether we agree with it or not.

Quad, I know you have been critical of things at av123 and have not given mls a free pass, but when I saw your posts that Chu referenced I was a bit surprised as well. I understand the health issue tie in - I am not trying to rip you. After reading those threads I ended up posting a rather caustic note on the tca forum that Craig deleted (rightly so). I have come to terms with what has gone down with av123/mls. But I really can't come to terms with the supporters who have lived through the issues and who know some of the folks who have been screwed hard but yet refuse to view things at all critically.

'nough said by me. Good luck with the Olds. You at least always have junk yards for parts - plenty of those Bravadas have given up the ghost by now . I have yet to see a pile of speakers cast off someplace.

 

[quadriverfalls]

You and I spoke once on the phone and it was a pleasant enough conversation. The posts you made where I found disagreement with I quoted earlier and I'll quote it again.



To me Quad, Mark & Kyle (under the direction of MLS) provided a spin on the whole parts issue for discontinued products especially those that hail from the Pu era. He did nothing more than issue a statement that looked to buy time and quell the dissatisfaction that people were starting to experience as they found that their product which needed a driver was now an anchor. You provided cover, justification and a stamp of imprimatur for him thereby enabling his continued screwing of customers. An image of a man, fighting to make things right and do the right thing was cast. It's an image that only exists in a Bizarro universe and is at odds with just about everything he's done.

He was not rushed to a hospital to undergo emergency surgery because he fell to the ground. He had a planned procedure and was in and out in about a day or so. He had the same thing Clinton did, or the guy at the cleaners I go to, or my uncle, or my half-brother but please forgive me if I'd want to see a notarized doctor's note and whether the condition was life threatening or was to relieve chest pains as well as whether the degree of blockage was reported correctly. All medical procedures entail a certain amount of risk but this is fairly commonplace.

Quad, I know the raffle situation doesn't sit well with you. But you've erred on the side of caution and given MLS the benefit of the doubt in a great number of areas. He in turn has relished it and plays you and everyone else who is willing to accept his stories as patsies. Yeah, the cooking at a GTG comment was a pretty low blow. At the time such a topic was mentioned over at AV451, I couldn't get over that you would even bring it up like it was the good old days and you were back at your favorite place like nothing happened. That's how I saw it. If I found that an old haunting ground had stolen money from charities and beneficiaries, ripped their employees off, not paid their suppliers, bad mouthed everybody and anybody when he thought it would never get repeated, and every other reprehensible thing that he has done, I'd pass on entering the place again. I'd encourage others not to enter it either and I'd put some effort into seeing that justice was done.

Hope you're doing better Quad. I'm even glad Shifty's doing better. I want him healthy because I want him to pay up. There's a series of reckonings coming and I want him there to respond and acknowledge each and every one.

Look Jerry.... I have no idea exactly what happened. I wasn't there, I wasn't a fly on the wall in the doctors office, emergency room or operating room. I have no idea whether it was planned, sudden or if what was reported is accurate. All I DO know is.... whenever the heart is involved, well.... that's a fairly significant procedure. But, I digress in that I have no medical training so it may be as simple as treating an infected hang nail. But, common sense tells me it was fairly significant. Then again, I've been accused of not having any sense on more than one occasion so that's nothing new.

As for my participation on the forum, well.... I saw several "old friends" showing back up so I started hanging around a bit. Nothing wrong with that. Participation on a forum with folks you genuinely like isn't a ringing endorsement of the forum owner. Like I told Seth, I should have stayed OUT of the parts thing though since I have no encumberances (is that the right word?) on the outcome what so ever. But as usual, my mouth gets the best of me sometimes and I open it when I should indeed keep it shut.

 

[quadriverfalls]

Not to pile on the Quadman, but I think this piece of Chu's post is extrememly relevant:



I think all the folks who have been around and are still on the av123 forum and over at avs acting like it is still "the good old days" are doing a disservice to the audio community. Credibility comes with numbers of posts and join dates on these forums, whether we agree with it or not.

Quad, I know you have been critical of things at av123 and have not given mls a free pass, but when I saw your posts that Chu referenced I was a bit surprised as well. I understand the health issue tie in - I am not trying to rip you. After reading those threads I ended up posting a rather caustic note on the tca forum that Craig deleted (rightly so). I have come to terms with what has gone down with av123/mls. But I really can't come to terms with the supporters who have lived through the issues and who know some of the folks who have been screwed hard but yet refuse to view things at all critically.

You know Dean.... I've thought long and hard about that. It put me in quite an uncomfortable position when I wanted to believe in Mark on one hand and yet knowing first hand some of the things that happened. So, after the initial backlash.... I kept pretty quiet on the whole affair. When I did say something, I tried to do so stating my disdain over what was happening yet temper it with the fact that I did not have all of the facts. Nor, will I ever be privy to them I'd imagine. So, while I was most definitely critical of what happened (and still am), I'm just not one to get on the roof and scream bloody murder about it.

If that makes me an "enabler" by giving a stamp of approval because of my silence.... then I guess I'm guilty as charged. It's just not in my comfort zone to judge someone when I'm not a part of the equation. Unless of course, we're talking about Bill Belicheck.

 

[Matt34]

But as usual, my mouth gets the best of me sometimes and I open it when I should indeed keep it shut.

Hey Quadman, your not the only one...trust me.

 

[Chu Gai]

Look Jerry.... I have no idea exactly what happened. I wasn't there, I wasn't a fly on the wall in the doctors office, emergency room or operating room. I have no idea whether it was planned, sudden or if what was reported is accurate. All I DO know is.... whenever the heart is involved, well.... that's a fairly significant procedure. But, I digress in that I have no medical training so it may be as simple as treating an infected hang nail. But, common sense tells me it was fairly significant. Then again, I've been accused of not having any sense on more than one occasion so that's nothing new.

Is that the new name for me?
But you're right, the only thing anyone knows is what Shifty tells them and the word know is used very loosely. According to him, it was planned and planned for some time so while one ought not to trivialize it by the same token it may not merit being elevated to DefCon 4. Like I've been saying for a long time, from him, I'd want corroborating proof because one thing he knows how to do is milk something for all its worth. He's played the game at AV451, he's played it at Perp. Tech. and he's played it at AA.

As for my participation on the forum, well.... I saw several "old friends" showing back up so I started hanging around a bit. Nothing wrong with that. Participation on a forum with folks you genuinely like isn't a ringing endorsement of the forum owner. Like I told Seth, I should have stayed OUT of the parts thing though since I have no encumberances (is that the right word?) on the outcome what so ever. But as usual, my mouth gets the best of me sometimes and I open it when I should indeed keep it shut.

Well, I happen to think it is an endorsement of the forum, the company that runs it, and by extension, Shifty. Look, you can do whatever you want but I'd have considered dropping them a PM and telling them where your new haunts are if they're of the mind to come and visit. As to the parts thing, can't you see that he's really not going to pursue this with any vigor, earnestness, or speed? He can't. There's no real money in it at this point because he's so cash strapped. He's trying to make a go of it by dumping UniAudio while screwing Santiago and saddling him with a big old pile of debt. That maybe, just maybe allows him the opportunity to get Danny back on board (provided he can pay him), line up some new models, find a sucker to make the cabinets, and buy some inexpensive drivers with an amp that hopefully won't be like all the POS's he's had before. Then he'll have it all shipped to Longmont and who's going to put it all together? That sterling crew he has there? Jeez, Louise.

If left to his own devices and timetable, no one is going to be paid off on the raffles. And you can be sure old suppliers and contract employees won't either. It's going to take more stringent measures and actions to compel him. I hope they happen swiftly.

 

[Chu Gai]

If that makes me an "enabler" by giving a stamp of approval because of my silence.... then I guess I'm guilty as charged. It's just not in my comfort zone to judge someone when I'm not a part of the equation. Unless of course, we're talking about Bill Belicheck.

You're not an enabler because you're silent but your participation in the parts matter at AV451 was anything but silent. Enabler is too harsh of a word though because it's not a consistent participation. But you gave him a pass and it sounded like you believed he was sincere. IMO of course.

 

[quadriverfalls]

You're not an enabler because you're silent but your participation in the parts matter at AV451 was anything but silent. Enabler is too harsh of a word though because it's not a consistent participation. But you gave him a pass and it sounded like you believed he was sincere. IMO of course.

Damn.... I didn't know my participation was all that much. I made the comment that as a manufacturer, one cannot be held responsible for out of production, out of warranty parts. To me and IMHO of course, all that is owed in that instance is a statement saying driver A from supplier XYZ or driver B from supplier ABC would be suitable replacement parts. I think I also alluded to the fact that it would be financial suicide to try and support discontinued products forever.

I still firmly believe that. Whether it's a speaker or my 1998 Oldsmobile Bravada. I'm not mad that GM dropped Oldsmobile. It was a simple business decision. One that certainly wasn't intended or targeted to specifically screw me. I'm also not upset that original equipment parts are getting more difficult to come by. I just have to live with that fact or get a newer vehicle. Deal with it and or move on I believe I said.

Geesh, I guess I really SHOULD have kept my mouth shut....

 

[Chu Gai]

You're right that your participation was not that much. Like I said, it's not chronic. But the topic you chose and the stand you took Quad overlooks something. He wouldn't have had these problems had he not screwed Pu.

 

[T2T]

He wouldn't have had these problems had he not screwed the Puch.

Fixed for clarification.