DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

[Stereodude]

I made the comment that as a manufacturer, one cannot be held responsible for out of production, out of warranty parts. To me and IMHO of course, all that is owed in that instance is a statement saying driver A from supplier XYZ or driver B from supplier ABC would be suitable replacement parts. I think I also alluded to the fact that it would be financial suicide to try and support discontinued products forever.

I still firmly believe that.

And I still firmly don't.

Call up Infinity and see what happens when you try to get parts for a speaker that was discontinued in the 80's. Guess what, they still have parts available. Why? Are they spending a pile of money on new runs of parts? Of course not. They had a plan that ensured an ample supply of spare parts after they last speaker was made. MLS failed to plan, and as a result, planned to fail.

You want to give him a pass because it would be financial suicide to try to support discontinued products forever. Apparently forever is now some period of time that's no longer than 5 years. It's only potentially financial suicide because he failed to plan. His failure to plan does not excuse a reasonable expectation that spare parts be available for products that are still in production. It's not the customer's fault MLS / VA321 accepted a change in the driver's basket part way through production and the old one is no longer available.

 

[quadriverfalls]

But the topic you chose and the stand you took Quad overlooks something. He wouldn't have had these problems had he not screwed Pu.

And GM may have screwed the people at Oldsmobile. And Chrysler may have screwed people at Plymouth. And on and on.... I wasn't a part of the dealings Mark had with Pu. No one but those two know exactly what happened. But in the end, they parted ways obviously, whatever the reason.
The bottom line (again, IMHO) is that what happened between them is irrelevant. The speakers are out of warranty and thus those particular parts may be difficult now to obtain. A manufacturer changes specs and parts on models all the time. Once a particular part is out of warranty, there is no way a manufacturer should not be held accountable for continuing to make those parts available plain and simple. I don't care if it's a speaker manufacturer or any other.

Am I the only person on the planet who thinks that way? Damn.... this is getting my blood pressure up and making me want a cigarette again. And that's one thing I simply cannot do. No more smoking for the quadman. But dag gone it I want one right now.

 

[quadriverfalls]

And I still firmly don't.

Call up Infinity and see what happens when you try to get parts for a speaker that was discontinued in the 80's. Guess what, they still have parts available. Why? Are they spending a pile of money on new runs of parts? Of course not. They had a plan that ensured an ample supply of spare parts after they last speaker was made. MLS failed to plan, and as a result, planned to fail.

You want to give him a pass because it would be financial suicide to try to support discontinued products forever. Apparently forever is now some period of time that's no longer than 5 years. It's only potentially financial suicide because he failed to plan. His failure to plan does not excuse a reasonable expectation that spare parts be available for products that are still in production. It's not the customer's fault MLS / VA321 accepted a change in the driver's basket part way through production and the old one is no longer available.

Seth my friend.... I guess on this one we'll have to agree to disagree. But IMHO, your use of Infinity is about as bad in comparison as mine. Infinity is a relative GIANT in comparison to AV123. They have actuaries, bean counters, and a miriad of other departments to make the plans and then even more to work that plan. That's one of the nice things about a huge corporation. A simple (basically one man) operation maybe isn't that well organized. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Was he a poor planner? Looks that way. Did he "accept" changes in specs that in hind sight are now causing problems? I guess so. But in the end, it's my opinion that he can't be held accountable for out of warranty product. Even if it's just five years after the fact. It doesn't mean I like it, but I stand by that statement.

 

[MinusTheBear]

And I still firmly don't.

Call up Infinity and see what happens when you try to get parts for a speaker that was discontinued in the 80's. Guess what, they still have parts available. Why? Are they spending a pile of money on new runs of parts? Of course not. They had a plan that ensured an ample supply of spare parts after they last speaker was made. MLS failed to plan, and as a result, planned to fail.

You want to give him a pass because it would be financial suicide to try to support discontinued products forever. Apparently forever is now some period of time that's no longer than 5 years. It's only potentially financial suicide because he failed to plan. His failure to plan does not excuse a reasonable expectation that spare parts be available for products that are still in production. It's not the customer's fault MLS / VA321 accepted a change in the driver's basket part way through production and the old one is no longer available.

Very good points. We are not even talking about the long run when it comes to spare parts. One of the customers that sparked this topic was because he unable to obtain a driver for a center channel that was CURRENTLY in production and sold at 123 but has a different flange. Now this is something that was never brought to the atttention of the customers but obviously this is something 123 was aware of and should have spare parts for. The fact they do not have any of these drivers in stock/nor can produce them at the moment speaks to the failed business practices of the company and the customer should be compensentated for this (return old center channel for a newer model with current drivers). Well run companies are not this short sighted.

When you take into consideration the myopic behaviour of this company, speculative financial issues, and this new policy on discontinued products (not relating to the example above), this should raise concerns to anyone.

As to financial suicide, drivers are not all that expensive. Look at 123's price points. For a healthy company, stocking spare parts is a non issue.

 

[The Ninja]

I won't be getting any money. I'm just trying to get the friggin parts for these LS6's and one pair of b-stock cabs replaced with a-stock.

Maybe that's why they're having those recent sales in anticipation that Sean will be awarded the money.

 

[jvgillow]

We are still rooting for you Sean... whatever you end up getting.

 

[The Ninja]

Thanks everyone. I've gotten a lot of email about this too. I really does help having all the support.

 

[cschang]

I know that Curtis.... and I've said many times that I don't much like it. But, I'm not in a position to do anything about it. Believe me when I say, I wish I could waive a wand and make it so that none of it ever happened. But this was a separate situation and thought it deserved to be treated as such and not lumped in with any other.

John...it goes to the man's character. One action does not make or break a man, it is the sum of many actions that shows his character.

 

[Chu Gai]

I won't be getting any money. I'm just trying to get the friggin parts for these LS6's and one pair of b-stock cabs replaced with a-stock.

Didn't I recall reading or hearing somewhere that you also had paid for other speakers too in addition to the LS6's? And correct me if I'm wrong, you didn't pay for B-stock but A-stock, right?

 

[geekinthehood]

Am I the only person on the planet who thinks that way?

No, you're not.

And before anyone starts in on me, I'll say that I firmly believe that MLS is a sociopath who is taking his family, his company, his customers, and himself straight down the drain. I just got my LS9s, and I would love to be able to point at them and proudly say "I bought them from AV123, and Mark Schifter is a great guy." But I can't. Yeah, they're great speakers. Yeah, I love them. And yeah, he stuck with it and finally sent me the product I had paid for over 3 years ago. But is that last point one to be commended? Am I to congratulate someone for NOT screwing me over?

I hate that, I really do. I love the idea of AV123, and I still recommend their speakers (not subwoofers), as long as they're in stock. You can't beat them for the price. But the company? No way. The less you're involved with them, the better. Buy their speakers on special, or get B-stock. Enjoy them. But don't count on the company behind them. Treat it as a good deal you got at a tourist stop on the highway.

But I digress...

On the point of spare parts, however, I don't think a company is obligated, morally or otherwise, to keep them in stock past warranty. I think they should be able to refer customers to a dealer that stocks the item, but I don't think they should have to stock it themselves. If they were smart, they'd buy the item themselves and resell it to their customer. But they don't have to.

My opinion; take it as you will.

 

[Chu Gai]

And GM may have screwed the people at Oldsmobile. And Chrysler may have screwed people at Plymouth. And on and on....

That may well be but one does not justify bad behavior by pointing to other behavior. Besides, the scenarios are entirely different.

I wasn't a part of the dealings Mark had with Pu. No one but those two know exactly what happened. But in the end, they parted ways obviously, whatever the reason.

Let's not hang on not knowing exactly. I and several others have a pretty good idea of what went on. He stuck Pu.

The bottom line (again, IMHO) is that what happened between them is irrelevant. The speakers are out of warranty and thus those particular parts may be difficult now to obtain. A manufacturer changes specs and parts on models all the time. Once a particular part is out of warranty, there is no way a manufacturer should not be held accountable for continuing to make those parts available plain and simple. I don't care if it's a speaker manufacturer or any other.

I disagree and find it enormously relevant. Pu was the money bags who had the connections and could leverage his ability to get things made utilizing economies of scale. He had the factory connections, a history that wasn't tainted in the industry, and the money to have the stuff ordered and built. He sold the finished products to MLS with terms and then would get paid. But the payments became slower and terms were extended. Then one day, after he had racked up enough debt, the relationship died leaving Pu with an IOU that makes the raffle underfunding look like a drop in the bucket. If Pu's the source for the drivers and MLS owes him money, any inquiry MLS will make to get replacements will be met with a letter like this.

Dear MLS,

FU

Sincerely,

Pu

Am I the only person on the planet who thinks that way? Damn.... this is getting my blood pressure up and making me want a cigarette again. And that's one thing I simply cannot do. No more smoking for the quadman. But dag gone it I want one right now.

I'm sure you're not. MLS has brought these enormous cluster phucks upon himself and now the kosher chickens have come home to roost.

 

[droht]

If that makes me an "enabler" by giving a stamp of approval because of my silence.... then I guess I'm guilty as charged. It's just not in my comfort zone to judge someone when I'm not a part of the equation. Unless of course, we're talking about Bill Belicheck.

John, I don't think your silence makes you an enabler at all.

I also don't think you appreciate the level of respect you have from lots of the community. Your posts carry more weight (even if you are losing it) than those of many other folks. You may not agree; you may not like it; but that is how I see it.

 

[Jed M]

The bottom line (again, IMHO) is that what happened between them is irrelevant.

This is where I disagree John. Its shows a clear pattern of lies, deceit and broken promises over a career that spans a long time. Taken by itself, sure, its business. Its amazing how all these people end up hating this guy isn't it? Do you have so many enemies? I can't even think of 1 that I have. Why is that?

He tells flat out lies about people John. You can continue to believe him but I have heard them all and we have talked and I know you know what I am talking about. He has lied about me, Seaton, Chu, Sean, Derek, Hugh, Pu, Ruben, his girlfriends, etc. He flat out pulls slanderous things out of thin air and "secretly" tells his friends/followers to 1) gain sympathy 2) poison the well of the people speaking out about him. You know what confidential things he says about some people. I challenge you or anybody who defends Mark (I know you are not one of them John) to fact check what he says about somebody or something. Chances are you will find it is all a lie too. The man sells a dream, but that is all it is. Its quite depressing when you see the man behind the curtains. Accusatory, greedy, manipulating and an absolute fraud. He is like a dog who is a "fear biter". Internal cowards but if you come close they bite. After I found out a lie Mark had told about me I spent a lot of last summer and fall corresponding with him trying to figure out why he did that to me. I gave him chance after chance but he just used it to lie and make more excuses and never came clean. I gave up after about 6 months.

So, even if one can look past the raffles, the bad products, the theft of pre-pays from decent hard working people who aren't cutting corners, the 7 figures in bad debts, I just don't see how one could look past the fact that somebody says slanderous things about innocent people to cover his *** for his selfish needs, aka "girlfriends", parties, pens, watches, cars, houses, gadgets, and the disgusting self adoration he craved by continuously fronting bogus raffles (you KNOW he loved basking in that glory). I can't look past that and for me what he did to Pu is every bit as relevant to what he did to the P-Tech people holding their bags or the RSL people who are equally screwed.

His lies are quickly catching up with him. I have talked to enough people and I know where most people stand, good or bad. I will say I feel really good about where I am standing for when the curtain does fall and the truth is open for all to see.

 

[Chu Gai]

Geehinthehood: Does that mean you're comfortable with the thought that when you're just past your warranty you can no longer buy a replacement driver?

 

[quadriverfalls]

John, I don't think your silence makes you an enabler at all.

I also don't think you appreciate the level of respect you have from lots of the community. Your posts carry more weight (even if you are losing it) than those of many other folks. You may not agree; you may not like it; but that is how I see it.

Well, I don't know about my posts carrying any weight.... but, I'm PERSONALLY down nearly 45 pounds now since I've gotten out of the hospital. Damn.... this place needs more smiley's.

 

[quadriverfalls]

Ok guys.... I'm gonna say one last thing (I hope) on this and possibly put to rest my part in this discussion.

I'm no apologist for MLS. He made his bed.... as a man, he now needs to sleep in it. As for all that's been said.... that he said, that she said, that some drunk Russian said and on and on.... I don't really have any opinion on that stuff because I wasn't there and I wasn't a party to it. I simply won't get caught up in what might have been said between two people when I wasn't there.

Jed, I'm sorry that happened to you. I REALLY am. Just as I feel absolutely terrible for all that's happened with regard to the raffles (most especially the raffles), late gear or vaporware, un-refunded monies. Stuff that's documented and out for all to see, well it's just awful. And, as an eternal optomist, I suppose that somewhere down deep inside I continue to hope that he will make good on all of what's gone bad. I would feel that way if it were MLS or you Chu. It makes no difference.

Once again, possibly I'm naive. And, I guess I accept that premise. I try and look for the good in folks even when it may not be there for all to see. Have I been burned by that philosiphy? Almost never. But for ME anyway, I'm just more comfortable with it than I am screaming from a roof top about all that someone has done wrong. Maybe it's because I would never want my skeletons spread out for all to see.... I don't know.

But, that's the way I am I guess.

 

[Chu Gai]

Jeez, Quad, don't put me that close to Shifty in the same sentence Yeah, I hope he makes good too but frankly, it's impossible given the current path that's been taken over the years. He can't dig himself out the mess he's in and the only reason some people have been able to get their speakers because he's taken from his Colombian connection in order to fund matters. In order to make someone right, he's got to make someone wrong. If you still talk to him ask him what happened with UniAudio? Betcha he says they screwed him.

BTW, nothing wrong with looking for the good in people. I tend to be that way myself but this whole mess is a study in the art of the con and how marks are sized up. If its to survive it will have to be under new management with a purging of any and all current moderators and maybe employees. I'd probably keep the guy that runs the forklift.

 

[geekinthehood]

Geehinthehood: Does that mean you're comfortable with the thought that when you're just past your warranty you can no longer buy a replacement driver?

I'll ask Danny Richie. He'll know what to do.

Seriously, though - any company selling a speaker at the level of the LS9s could go out of business. It happens all the time in the high-end audio world. Then I'd be in the same boat I would be with AV123 except I would've spent a lot more to get there. I have to think that with a part number and google, I can find a replacement.

When it comes to the LS series, I was serious about the "ask Danny" solution. For the other speakers (I have two pairs of ELT525Ts), well... I got a good deal, I'll take my chances.

 

[dwayland]

Well, I don't know about my posts carrying any weight.... but, I'm PERSONALLY down nearly 45 pounds now since I've gotten out of the hospital. Damn.... this place needs more smiley's.

That is awesome John! Keep it up!

Take care,

Derek

 

[Chu Gai]

I'll ask Danny Richie. He'll know what to do.

I understand that's his design which he 'licences' to AV451. Is he buying the drivers himself or is he getting them through Shifty?

Seriously, though - any company selling a speaker at the level of the LS9s could go out of business. It happens all the time in the high-end audio world. Then I'd be in the same boat I would be with AV123 except I would've spent a lot more to get there. I have to think that with a part number and google, I can find a replacement.

Those are XBL2 drivers, right? I think they're made by Peerless India, but if not it doesn't matter too much. In order to make and sell them legally, a royalty has to be paid to Dan Wiggins which I believe the factory does. But maybe you're in better shape than I think. It really depends on who is buying the drivers. Because of that a part number and google might not help you much.

When it comes to the LS series, I was serious about the "ask Danny" solution. For the other speakers (I have two pairs of ELT525Ts), well... I got a good deal, I'll take my chances.

From your lips... Our willingness to take a risk is related to the expense. But good luck with all your purchases. May they last a long time.