DO NOT BUY anything from AV123

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C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Audio Alchemy died a fewer years after MLS and his partners sold it.
Not exactly.

Shifty resigned as President of Audio Alchemy, October 4, 1996. It was sold 23 months earlier to Audiosphere with the founders having given up majority interest 11 months earler. He has stated that stayed on as a consultant focusing on new product development for some time after. Shortly after Shifty left, reports started appearing that AA was experiencing financial difficulties. They were pretty closed mouth at the CES. Warranties also became very problematical (sound familiar?). Audio Alchemy folded shortly thereafter.

The way I see it, he sucked the blood out of the company just as he has sucked the blood out of AV451, its employees, its suppliers, its customers, its partners, and every raffle participant. Careful that he doesn't such the blood out of you.

 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Let's keep one thing in mind here. So long as folks over there are talking about,

  • parts
  • new products
  • cooking
  • the obligatory wire thread
  • the good old times
  • his illness
  • even hums and sundry product issues
they're not talking about the reasons we're all here. Now, I think the whole parts 'solution and policy' is very much spin. It buys time. It restores a misguided faith in a company that has misappropriated funds as well as trust. Let's not lose sight of this.
 
Z

Zaluss

Audioholic
Let's keep one thing in mind here. So long as folks over there are talking about,

  • parts
  • new products
  • cooking
  • the obligatory wire thread
  • the good old times
  • his illness
  • even hums and sundry product issues
they're not talking about the reasons we're all here. Now, I think the whole parts 'solution and policy' is very much spin. It buys time. It restores a misguided faith in a company that has misappropriated funds as well as trust. Let's not lose sight of this.
I understand what your saying. I still hang around the forums and still talk about topics of products I've purchased from other companies, the classifieds, etc and such though nothing directly related to Mark anymore. I still have some friends (most of which I have directed to this thread and the one at AVS) and they have now also stopped purchases at AV123. We were still looking at used AV123 speakers (mainly because I wanted to ninja them) but after the warranty fiasco forget it.

From what I understand, most people that frequent the forum that have been there for as long as I have (2 years~) either don't believe its true and its just false rumors spread by bitter folks, Mark has somehow redeemed himself and made up for everything hes done and is paying the price in karma with his so called medical condition, or they just don't care. I think they know that if they directly bring up these things they will get just the banhammer. Ignorance is bliss, right?

My question to you Chu is you seem to have the biggest issue with MLS. Why? What did he do to you? Or is it just the fact that what hes doing is incredibly wrong and immoral and you feel the need to spread the word to the audio world? Hell, I don't even know if your even into audio since all your posts seem to be in the steam vent. You even have a dedicated website about MLS. Thats some dedication.
 
B

BWG707

Audioholic
I've really noticed that MS loves to try to make people feel sorrow for him. Isn't there a medical or psychological condition that concerns this? And no I'm not talking about immaturity.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
My question to you Chu is you seem to have the biggest issue with MLS. Why? What did he do to you? Or is it just the fact that what hes doing is incredibly wrong and immoral and you feel the need to spread the word to the audio world? Hell, I don't even know if your even into audio since all your posts seem to be in the steam vent. You even have a dedicated website about MLS. Thats some dedication.
Someone has to keep the heat on MLS. If no one catalogs and details his escapades how will prospective customers know what they're getting into?

That fact that Chu doesn't own any AV123 products is irrelevant to me. If anything, it probably makes him more objective. He's neither a fanboy defending MLS at all costs and for any reason, nor is he a disgruntled owner who feels duped and taken by MLS.
 
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
I've really noticed that MS loves to try to make people feel sorrow for him. Isn't there a medical or psychological condition that concerns this? And no I'm not talking about immaturity.
It is human nature and psychological. It is just a deflection strategy. It seen a lot of times when controversy surrounds famous individuals in the spotlight or in other cases athletes accused of steriods. An example and I don't have the exact quote but once McGwire admitted he did use steriods, the victim card was immediately played, blaming it on playing and the pressure to perform during the "steriod era". :rolleyes: It is a very common strategy to use. I am suprised Tiger didn't go that route, it takes some guts.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
From what I understand, most people that frequent the forum that have been there for as long as I have (2 years~) either don't believe its true and its just false rumors spread by bitter folks, Mark has somehow redeemed himself and made up for everything hes done and is paying the price in karma with his so called medical condition, or they just don't care. I think they know that if they directly bring up these things they will get just the banhammer. Ignorance is bliss, right?
I am not around AV123's forum much anymore - being banned tends to do that - but the times that I have gone in there I've gotten the impression that there are only a scattering of old-timers and a lot of very new members (folks who either weren't present prior to last year's six-month shut-down or were not there for long). The really long-time members - folks who supported the company for years - have become pretty rare. A few "old-timers" still post there, but their posts have changed. Quad is an example: he has made a few really excellent posts recently about how the forum has changed. He was never a traditional "fanboy" supporter, but he was always supportive of Mark and the company. Read his posts over there, and I think you'll see that he recognizes the situation and has not granted Mark redemption.
My question to you Chu is you seem to have the biggest issue with MLS. Why? What did he do to you? Or is it just the fact that what hes doing is incredibly wrong and immoral and you feel the need to spread the word to the audio world? Hell, I don't even know if your even into audio since all your posts seem to be in the steam vent. You even have a dedicated website about MLS. Thats some dedication.
Chu can certainly speak for himself, but for all intents and purposes Mark is the company. He's styled himself as that for many years now, and at this point the staff has been so reduced that it's probably more true now than it was five years ago. Even more than that, many of the problems that plague the company are the result of Mark's personal actions: raffles (which all went through his personal PayPal account), RSL-II betas (which aren't even an AV123 product, although Mark has used AV123's forum as a free venue for selling them while the Act3 web site was "in development" and "coming soon"), and assorted LS and B-stock MFW purchases that for various reasons were handled as personal business dealings with Graham Company.
 
Stereodude

Stereodude

Senior Audioholic
Quad is an example: he has made a few really excellent posts recently about how the forum has changed. He was never a traditional "fanboy" supporter, but he was always supportive of Mark and the company. Read his posts over there, and I think you'll see that he recognizes the situation and has not granted Mark redemption.
I'm not so sure about that. I like the Quad-man. He's a good guy. I've met him several times in person, but he's straight up on crack with some of his latest posts praising MLS on the whole spare parts fiasco.

Expecting spare parts for a discontinued speaker isn't an outlandish request. Other manufacturers do it. It just takes a little forethought and planning on the part of the company. You establish a failure rate and make sure that your last order of parts for the speaker will get you enough spares to cover your failure rate plus some extras. Of course this doesn't work for VA321 because they don't seem to do any planning. Instead they ambush people by discontinuing products or veneers without any warning randomly, so it doesn't surprise me that planning for a spare parts cache doesn't get any consideration.

Even back when I was still drinking MLS's Kool-Aid I complained loudly and more than once about their uncharacteristically poor handling of product discontinuation and phase out. A product would go out of stock never to return without so much as a whisper. This left people high and dry who were buying a system piecemeal and actually wanted matching veneers.
 
Jed M

Jed M

Full Audioholic
raffles (which all went through his personal PayPal account)
Just want to clear up a common mis-perception. Not all the raffles went through Mark. They went straight through AV123 too. I know AV123 has been desperately trying to distance themselves and claim it was all Mark, but that, like most things they tell you, is an outright lie. Here is just one of my emails I received back in 05 for one of the raffles. So far I have found 3 emails directly paying AV123 for charity raffles. I will look for more, but so far I have 3 worth $1050.00. Here is an example of one. I left the address and phone number because I moved years ago, but I edited my name and email address in case anybody was wondering. Besides that, this is an exact email:


AV123 Orders to me

9/14/05
Thank you for your order. We are currently processing it. Your credit card will not be charged until we ship your order.


=====================================================================

Order # 103900

=====================================================================

Date: 9/14/2005


Ship to:

Jed M

702 222 0827

9746 Powell Plateau Ct.

Las Vegas, NV 89148

United States

...@gmail.com


Bill to:

Jed M

702 222 0827

9746 Powell Plateau Ct.

Las Vegas, NV 89148

United States


Credit Card : Visa

CC Number : ************7388

CC Expiration : 6/2006

CCV Code : ***


=====================================================================

Total Price Qty Item Price Item

=====================================================================

$ 100.00 1 $ 100.00 Hurricane Katrina Charity Raffle Ticket

---------------------------------------------------------------------

$ 100.00 :Subtotal

$ 0.00 :Ground Shipping

---------------------------------------------------------------------

$ 100.00 :Total


---------------------------------------------------------------------

For more information about your order, you can respond to this message

at sales@av123.com or you may call 303-543-7500.

Thank you for shopping with us,


AV123

www.av123.com
 
E

eomcall

Enthusiast
I understand what your saying. I still hang around the forums and still talk about topics of products I've purchased from other companies, the classifieds, etc and such though nothing directly related to Mark anymore. I still have some friends (most of which I have directed to this thread and the one at AVS) and they have now also stopped purchases at AV123. We were still looking at used AV123 speakers (mainly because I wanted to ninja them) but after the warranty fiasco forget it.

From what I understand, most people that frequent the forum that have been there for as long as I have (2 years~) either don't believe its true and its just false rumors spread by bitter folks, Mark has somehow redeemed himself and made up for everything hes done and is paying the price in karma with his so called medical condition, or they just don't care. I think they know that if they directly bring up these things they will get just the banhammer. Ignorance is bliss, right?

My question to you Chu is you seem to have the biggest issue with MLS. Why? What did he do to you? Or is it just the fact that what hes doing is incredibly wrong and immoral and you feel the need to spread the word to the audio world? Hell, I don't even know if your even into audio since all your posts seem to be in the steam vent. You even have a dedicated website about MLS. Thats some dedication.
Actually I would like to hear from Chu on his reasons for carrying the banner.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
I understand what your saying. I still hang around the forums and still talk about topics of products I've purchased from other companies, the classifieds, etc and such though nothing directly related to Mark anymore. I still have some friends (most of which I have directed to this thread and the one at AVS) and they have now also stopped purchases at AV123. We were still looking at used AV123 speakers (mainly because I wanted to ninja them) but after the warranty fiasco forget it.
Given everything that's happened, why even condescend to grace that forum with your presence? Yes, I'm sure you've got friends, but friends don't have to keep coming back to the same old odious place. Doing so lends a stamp of imprimatur that's not warranted.

From what I understand, most people that frequent the forum that have been there for as long as I have (2 years~) either don't believe its true and its just false rumors spread by bitter folks, Mark has somehow redeemed himself and made up for everything hes done and is paying the price in karma with his so called medical condition, or they just don't care. I think they know that if they directly bring up these things they will get just the banhammer. Ignorance is bliss, right?
There's no false rumors and if some are bitter, theyve earned right. With some people, he's redeemed himself with them finally getting their speakers in that respect. And for some, that will be all they care about. Others will get their speakers and spit at the very mention of that odious name.

With respect to many though he's not redeemed himself with their particular needs. A person who got conned into converting what he was owed into store credit and finds he can't cash it in for either money or product he wants or expected to see isn't satisfied. Sean, from the various posts he's made here and elsewhere, took it up the arse and is seeking legal recourse. The dozen or so people who ponied up $6,000 each for a fart in the wind product that was supposed to have Arnie Nudell weaving whatever magic he has aren't happy because they can't get what was promised or their money back. The raffle recipients who got nothing or next to nothing and found their dying friend, dying father, and very ill daughter used as nothing more than fish bait, how will they find their justice and closure?

My question to you Chu is you seem to have the biggest issue with MLS. Why? What did he do to you? Or is it just the fact that what hes doing is incredibly wrong and immoral and you feel the need to spread the word to the audio world? Hell, I don't even know if your even into audio since all your posts seem to be in the steam vent. You even have a dedicated website about MLS. Thats some dedication.
The biggest issue is with MLS because as I see it, he's the ring leader. That's where the buck stops (pun and no pun intended). I can tolerate a reasonable amount of screw ups. Happens all the time with the absolute best of companies. What has occurred over the years are more than screw ups. They're more than bad business decisions. And I'll tell you there's far more than have graced the public air space. The raffles were the tipping point for me. The more I got into the whole raffle fiasco, the more I learned about other stuff. I thought to myself, what was the one raffle that he couldn't possibly have messed up on? Of all the people in the world, who's the one person he wouldn't toss out into the pod as crab bait? I figured that was his granddaughter. So, through the assistance of others, an inquiry was made to the Ballet Nouveau where she danced and perhaps still dances. After a somewhat long wait, a reply came and it indicated that of the 30K said to have been raised, only $7,500 made it's way there. There were I believe 2 raffles for that organization. The first occurred in 2004. No record by them was found of any donations made in and around that time period. The second raffle occurred the following year and from that $7500 was received some time after it had closed.

I've never owned a product by them - new or used. I had a fondness for them in the beginning and have written about it here and elsewhere. I've never contributed to a raffle or supported one that they ran publicly. Because of that I've been told on more than one occasion that I have no right to object especially with the consistency and frequency that I have. I disagree. One does not have to be personally affected to raise their voice at injustices.

I've been told by some that they object vigorously to my having said I speak for the little guy and everyone who has been disenfranchised in any way whatsoever. They say I don't speak for them. Fine, I don't. But I'll still speak.

MLS has said privately to people who've worked for him (no longer though) that I'm some trouble maker who once bought a product and was dissatisfied in some manner and have harbored a grudge and vendetta for years. Outright fabrication and poppycock.

It's been said that I work for a competitor and am looking to wreak damage upon the company. I do not. I do not now, nor have I ever worked for an audio company in any way.

For me this is relaxation and find this to be an interesting reality show where the victims and perpetrators are most real. There are others I correspond with as well as having personal friends who do a significant amount of legwork on my behalf. Some may want to look at it as a conspiracy. Let them. It's nothing more than people looking to find out the truth and disseminate it. The conspiracy lies not with me. It lies in Colorado. It's not perpetrated against the company, rather the company has perpetrated it against the public.

With respect to my having some sort of ownership in the other website, DontSchifterMeBro, I have none whatsoever. I didn't start it but I do post there from time to time. I hope you've enjoyed the videos and ask for your support in seeing they get nominated for some kind of award. I'd like to walk the red carpet so long as others get to walk the green mile.

And yes, I'm into audio. Even HT. But for me talking about one's gear doesn't do it for me. Never has. I don't recommend what I own. I do though find posts by people like Sean Olive, Earl Geddes, krabapple, JNeutron, and others most informative.
 
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Z

Zaluss

Audioholic
Thanks for the clarification Chu, much appreciated. I am curious about what gear you have now though.
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks for that post, JedM. It indicates that the company (and who has vested interests in that company?...more than MLS) also was a participant in harvesting dollars.

Eomcall, I hope you have your answer. I'm out for justice and it's coming. It is with great pleasure that I have read he is doing better. He'll need his health.
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
Even back when I was still drinking MLS's Kool-Aid I complained loudly and more than once about their uncharacteristically poor handling of product discontinuation and phase out. A product would go out of stock never to return without so much as a whisper. This left people high and dry who were buying a system piecemeal and actually wanted matching veneers.
Good point - that has been a common issue for AV123.
Just want to clear up a common mis-perception. Not all the raffles went through Mark. They went straight through AV123 too. I know AV123 has been desperately trying to distance themselves and claim it was all Mark, but that, like most things they tell you, is an outright lie. Here is just one of my emails I received back in 05 for one of the raffles. So far I have found 3 emails directly paying AV123 for charity raffles. I will look for more, but so far I have 3 worth $1050.00. Here is an example of one. I left the address and phone number because I moved years ago, but I edited my name and email address in case anybody was wondering. Besides that, this is an exact email:
Ooh... Excellent point, Jed. Excellent point.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude
Even back when I was still drinking MLS's Kool-Aid I complained loudly and more than once about their uncharacteristically poor handling of product discontinuation and phase out. A product would go out of stock never to return without so much as a whisper. This left people high and dry who were buying a system piecemeal and actually wanted matching veneers.

Good point - that has been a common issue for AV123.



Yeah, I love my Mini's, but it looks like I'll never have a matching system unless I start over.:(
 
gonk

gonk

Full Audioholic
Yeah, I love my Mini's, but it looks like I'll never have a matching system unless I start over.:(
If you believe Mark, you might get a Strata Max one of these days. Of course, that's years after the Mini was discontinued, with no mention of the on-wall surround or a matching center, and they will be built in a different factory (since I'm pretty sure SAC built the Mini) but he says he's working on it!
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
If you believe Mark, you might get a Strata Max one of these days. Of course, that's years after the Mini was discontinued, with no mention of the on-wall surround or a matching center, and they will be built in a different factory (since I'm pretty sure SAC built the Mini) but he says he's working on it!
Even if they shocked me by making the matching center and surrounds that were promised years ago, I'd be afraid to buy them. QC seems to be a mythical department there these days. How would I know that the drivers really match? Or if they did match, would they last? Or even function out of the box? Too many questions in my mind to take a chance with cash that is so hard to come by. It looks like I'm stuck unless I start over, or build my own.
 
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