Does anyone really care about the Center Channel?

[lsiberian]

Of all the pieces of equipment that make up an audio reproduction system, speakers afford the most noticeable difference/change from one system to another. As such, they are also the most subjective, i.e. one person might comment that a speaker is very “detailed” while another person listening to the same speaker & associated equipment might find the sound to be “analytical”.

There is no right or wrong in this matter – if you like what you hear and it’s within your budget – go for it. It’s OK to come to a site like this to get some ideas, but don’t let anyone tell you what you should buy.

But do let us tell you what you shouldn't buy. Because there are products that just aren't worth their cost. And there is a such thing as lower quality equipment. A man who seeks counsel is wise. One who doesn't is a fool.

 

[DD66000]

We all have our preferences. But I wouldn't call my center half-assed. I actually put my screen above my speakers so that's an option too.

I wasn't referring to your setup, how could I, never have heard it.
I was speaking in general. I've seen many people buy a big screen, and either have no external sound system, or some junk, tin can size speakers they got for free when they bought the tv.
When I was using some old L55s for the LCRs, they were all below the screen, and gave a very good soundstage. I've never been a fan of having the LCRs closer to the ceiling than the floor. The top of my surrounds are 6ft above the floor so they clear the seat backs.

 

[no. 5]

Here's the link to the info I mentioned - a lot of info to read about, but very worth while:

http://www.grammy.com/PDFs/Recording_Academy/Producers_And_Engineers/5_1_Rec.pdf

There is indeed good information in that paper, however, it is lacking in recommendations for some important areas, for example, it says next to nothing in regard to preferred acoustical properties for loudspeakers, nor does it say anything about acceptable tolerances for low frequency response at the mix position.

There was an odd recommendation for surround sound mixing with regard to the center channel:

Another problem stems from the fact that most playback systems — even the most rudimentary consumer systems — allow each channel to be heard in isolation. Placing a lead vocal "naked" in the center channel, without other instrumentation to help mask poorly intonated notes, "auto-tuning" glitches, or bad drop-ins, can therefore potentially expose weaknesses in a performance and consequently incur the wrath of the recording artist and record label.

Certainly, avoiding the wrath of the employers is desirable, but the only way to isolate a single channel in a consumer home theater system is to physically disconnect the other channels, and though it is possible a person may unplug all but one speaker when listening to music, how likely is it?

 

[CraigV]

But do let us tell you what you shouldn't buy. Because there are products that just aren't worth their cost. And there is a such thing as lower quality equipment. A man who seeks counsel is wise. One who doesn't is a fool.

You mean like Theater Research

(I hope I don't get banned for this)

 

[lsiberian]

That and the B company.

 

[lsiberian]

I wasn't referring to your setup, how could I, never have heard it.
I was speaking in general. I've seen many people buy a big screen, and either have no external sound system, or some junk, tin can size speakers they got for free when they bought the tv.
When I was using some old L55s for the LCRs, they were all below the screen, and gave a very good soundstage. I've never been a fan of having the LCRs closer to the ceiling than the floor. The top of my surrounds are 6ft above the floor so they clear the seat backs.

I know what you mean. When I see tiny centers I weep. My surrounds make better centers than those HTIB types. Of course they are Uni-Q so it's an unfair comparison. I will be building a new DIY front sound stage in the next few months. I can't wait to pair that with my DIY subs.

 

[3db]

A center channel is not a requirement for good home theater PROVIDED that a few conditions are met.

1.) First off are the seating positions; If teh seating position is such that it stays fairly inline with dead center between th eleft and right main channel, and
2.) if your main speakers image really well, then a center channel is NOT required to anchor the sound to the DISPLAY.

Howeve, I suspect condition1 is teh hardest one to meet and because of seating postion relative to the TV and left/right main speakers, a cenetr channel will better anchor the sound.

 

[jostenmeat]

A center channel is not a requirement for good home theater PROVIDED that a few conditions are met.

1.) First off are the seating positions; If teh seating position is such that it stays fairly inline with dead center between th eleft and right main channel, and
2.) if your main speakers image really well, then a center channel is NOT required to anchor the sound to the DISPLAY.

Howeve, I suspect condition1 is teh hardest one to meet and because of seating postion relative to the TV and left/right main speakers, a cenetr channel will better anchor the sound.

Hey 3db, as a pretty big proponent of having a center speaker, I will say that center speaker designs (and often combined with bad placement) are often poor enough in off-axis response, that two upright mains sounds better anyways, particularly if not in the middle.

So, I actually believe atm that your condition #1 is more important when HAVING a center channel (in most cases).

I am very aware that what I'm stating is the opposite of what is normally advised, just as you have offered. But, this is my experience! So I'm nuts, big deal. I will give up a tad bit of locking dialogue to display (which I happen to believe is often overstated anyways) for the very great improvement of dialogue intelligibility, and of audio in general.

 

[lsiberian]

A center channel is not a requirement for good home theater PROVIDED that a few conditions are met.

1.) First off are the seating positions; If teh seating position is such that it stays fairly inline with dead center between th eleft and right main channel, and
2.) if your main speakers image really well, then a center channel is NOT required to anchor the sound to the DISPLAY.

Howeve, I suspect condition1 is teh hardest one to meet and because of seating postion relative to the TV and left/right main speakers, a cenetr channel will better anchor the sound.

It's not required, but I still suggest it for most people. I don't see a reason not to have them. The supposed issues aren't that significant IMO especially with good designs. That's why I think people are being nitpicky, but maybe I don't care as much about the sound issues it creates.

 

[greggp2]

I have experimented quite a bit with this and I have B&W 802 speakers as my mains and an HTM1 as a Center channel. I really wish I could get away from the Center, because it is so darn large, that I can't buy a piece of furniture that I wanted to use to dress up my family room.

When I turn my center off and have the mains try to reproduce the voice, there is a loss if intelligibility with the dialogue. The speakers image very well and as long as you don't sit too far off axis, the dialogue is fairly centered, however, the voices are lost by the midrange bass of the speakers.

The difference is honestly night and day. I really wish it wasn't, but a Phantom Center just isn't the same as having a good dedicated center channel.

 

[DD66000]

I have experimented quite a bit with this and I have B&W 802 speakers as my mains and an HTM1 as a Center channel. I really wish I could get away from the Center, because it is so darn large, that I can't buy a piece of furniture that I wanted to use to dress up my family room.

When I turn my center off and have the mains try to reproduce the voice, there is a loss if intelligibility with the dialogue. The speakers image very well and as long as you don't sit too far off axis, the dialogue is fairly centered, however, the voices are lost by the midrange bass of the speakers.

The difference is honestly night and day. I really wish it wasn't, but a Phantom Center just isn't the same as having a good dedicated center channel.

For speakers in their price range, I would except good dialogue from the mains. It would seem that something need to be tweeted. Maybe the speaker positions, a more powerful amp, a boost in the midrange, or something else.

With the custom LCRs I use, I can't tell the difference between using a phantom center and using a hard center, as long as I'm close to the center line of the room, within 15" either way.

 

[CraigV]

I have experimented quite a bit with this and I have B&W 802 speakers as my mains and an HTM1 as a Center channel. I really wish I could get away from the Center, because it is so darn large, that I can't buy a piece of furniture that I wanted to use to dress up my family room.

When I turn my center off and have the mains try to reproduce the voice, there is a loss if intelligibility with the dialogue. The speakers image very well and as long as you don't sit too far off axis, the dialogue is fairly centered, however, the voices are lost by the midrange bass of the speakers.

The difference is honestly night and day. I really wish it wasn't, but a Phantom Center just isn't the same as having a good dedicated center channel.

I had to play around with my Kef’s to get them sounding just right. I adjusted them to be the same height, and level side-to-side and front to back (using the included carpet spikes) They’re toed in quite a bit now and the sound is solid all the way across. No issues hearing dialog & whatever else would be coming from the center speaker. Indeed, the pans across the front are much smoother, with no “roller coaster” effect.

 

[greggp2]

The Amp could be the issue. I ordered a dedicated 250 watt 2 channel Amp that should be in by weeks end, however, keep in mind, that I also am comparing it to having a beast of a Center channel turned on and off. I can still hear the voice audio when running in phantom mode, but when I turn the HTM1 back on, it's much, much clearer. It is also $3,000 speaker, so it better be doing something!!!

I'll let you know how much better it is when I get the new amp.

 

[DD66000]

It maybe a $3K center, but those 802s are what, about $6K/ea?
I haven't auditioned any B&Ws in years, but from what I've read they are very power hungry. And one review I read somewhere, online, stated they need a lot of power to bring forward the midrange, which would be the voice range.
Anyway good luck with the new amp.

 

[greggp2]

Thanks. I think the Amp should help, so we shall see. I'd love for it to produce a strong Phantom Center and I can shed my system of my Center Channel. They are selling on Ebay and Audiogon for $1,500 and my family room would look much better with the built in I want...

 

[MatthewB.]

Okay just got around to reading this thread and since I have three systems I feel I can give my points of view on these. In my guest room/office system I run my favorite speakers (AV123 Strata Minis) in a stereo configuration and the only time they sound real good is if your dead center, if not your gonna get more sound out of the speaker your closest to. This does not work well when more than one person is watching. My main system has very powerful DefTech mains and center and when properly calibrated does a great job all around although again when you go further off center the same thing applies.

My favorite though is my master bedroom system, because even though I have matching speakers all around, my Denon 3808 has this cool feature called "Widescreen" and what this does is apply some of the center channel sound to the mains, giving you this effect that your entire three speakers up front are one giant speaker but with great panning effects. So even though my center is horizontal (space issues) widescreen does the best job.

 

[DD66000]

My main system has very powerful DefTech mains and center and when properly calibrated does a great job all around although again when you go further off center the same thing applies.

The whole point of using a center is to lock the dialogue to the screen, no matter where you're sitting. Sounds like that horizontal center itsn't doing its job properly.

My favorite though is my master bedroom system, because even though I have matching speakers all around, my Denon 3808 has this cool feature called "Widescreen" and what this does is apply some of the center channel sound to the mains, giving you this effect that your entire three speakers up front are one giant speaker but with great panning effects. So even though my center is horizontal (space issues) widescreen does the best job.

Some other surround modes do the same thing placing the voices in all threee mains.

 

[greggp2]

Phantom Center Update

I got my Emotiva XPA-2 in today. Hooked everything up and have been playing with Phantom mode and Center mode. I need to do a little more experimenting with movies and some Dolby HD formats on Blu-ray, but the Phantom mode sounds much better now. The dialogue is still not always locked on the screen, but the sound coming from the main sounds very hollow at times compared to when it is coming out of my mains...

To be continued

 

[CraigV]

I got my Emotiva XPA-2 in today. Hooked everything up and have been playing with Phantom mode and Center mode. I need to do a little more experimenting with movies and some Dolby HD formats on Blu-ray, but the Phantom mode sounds much better now. The dialogue is still not always locked on the screen, but the sound coming from the main sounds very hollow at times compared to when it is coming out of my mains...

To be continued

Hmm...I think you meant to say "center" here

 

[sgtpepper9]

For a while I had a quad set up, mains and rears and no center channel. I have to say, I didn't really miss it. But if I could afford one, I'm sure I'd get it