Does anyone really care about the Center Channel?

[DD66000]

I suppose many people just don't think the center channel is "cool".

Enormous subwoofers are awesome, and seven foot tall main channels are cool, but the center channel? I mean, it's only where all the dialog comes from.

For most of the time we have had MC, the center was the weak link, and many still are. And one reason is the WAF, which I don't and never did have, when it came to audio. Which lead to having horizontal centers that were really wimpy and totally useless.
So make sure it a good design before you buy.
But identical LCRs are still best.

 

[Rogozhin]

I've been working without a center as I replace primary amps and I can say that even with the phantom it does not sound 'correct'. I have a center that shares the same drivers as my mains, and it sounds wonderful. I can't purchase a single Opus1 tower to match my mains, but I'm looking.

You've asked a very valid question OP!

 

[gixxerific]

What about having 2 towers left and right. Then maybe a bookshelve version of your mains for a center. I supose that would work well, probably better than a MTM aranged center.

What do you guy's think?

Dono

 

[the grunt]

What about having 2 towers left and right. Then maybe a bookshelve version of your mains for a center. I supose that would work well, probably better than a MTM aranged center.

What do you guy's think?

Dono

That is exactly what fredk from post #17 above did with his setup and says that he likes it a lot. I also tried it just as an experiment since I already knew I could fit a third tower and also found that a bookshelf timber matched to the tower mains sound much better than a horizontal center.

One thing to consider if you plan to try a bookshelf center is just to go with 3 good bookshelf speakers across the front and let a subwoofer pick up the low end. I think that for most people this is likely a more cost effective setup. And can even sound better than towers because you can buy better bookshelf speakers for the same or less money than towers.

 

[DD66000]

Identical bookshelf speakers all around is a good way to go and if they're wall mountable, even better. That way you've got total flexability as far as setup of the entire system.

The bigger the bookshelf speaker the better. And if you can mount the main L/R to a pair subs you still end up with full range mains for stereo music.

 

[gixxerific]

That is exactly what fredk from post #17 above did with his setup and says that he likes it a lot. I also tried it just as an experiment since I already knew I could fit a third tower and also found that a bookshelf timber matched to the tower mains sound much better than a horizontal center.

One thing to consider if you plan to try a bookshelf center is just to go with 3 good bookshelf speakers across the front and let a subwoofer pick up the low end. I think that for most people this is likely a more cost effective setup. And can even sound better than towers because you can buy better bookshelf speakers for the same or less money than towers.

I must have missed post 17 but there you go. That is probably what I will do someday. Though I will be getting some towers just because that is what I want. Maybe it is my age and what we grew up with. Plus I will be getting things in steps, can't afford it all at once. Maybe when it comes time to upgrade the system I don't even have yet I will look at bookshelves.

 

[the grunt]

I must have missed post 17 but there you go. That is probably what I will do someday. Though I will be getting some towers just because that is what I want. Maybe it is my age and what we grew up with. Plus I will be getting things in steps, can't afford it all at once. Maybe when it comes time to upgrade the system I don't even have yet I will look at bookshelves.

I’m like you with the towers, I grew up with big full range speakers and anything else just doesn’t seem right. May not be rational but at least in my mind I can rationalize it. Building your system in steps is a great idea rather than making compromises you might regret later. I’m doing the same thing. I wish I had asked more about center channels before I started buying that way I wouldn’t have wasted time or money trying to get a horizontal center to sound as good as I wanted.

Good luck with your purchases.
Dean

 

[gixxerific]

I’m like you with the towers, I grew up with big full range speakers and anything else just doesn’t seem right. May not be rational but at least in my mind I can rationalize it. Building your system in steps is a great idea rather than making compromises you might regret later. I’m doing the same thing. I wish I had asked more about center channels before I started buying that way I wouldn’t have wasted time or money trying to get a horizontal center to sound as good as I wanted.

Good luck with your purchases.
Dean

Thanks and yes the center and surrounds are a part of my desicion. Though If I find some totally awesome speakers that may not have matching centers and whatnot so beit, I will figure it out from there.

 

[Sheep]

Another reason for a center is to anchor the dialogue on the screen with the characters (unless they go off the screen, then the dialogue will move to a different speaker). Also, it takes a load off the main speakers which see enough information in movies.

SheepStar

 

[The Dali]

Like jostenmeat and others I also recommend an identical vertical center whenever I see the question come up. Horizontal centers sound so bad IMO I recommend matching bookshelf speakers up front if one cant fit or doesn‘t want towers.



I did too until I figured out I could do this.

Your right about getting it at ear height but since that picture was taken I put the mains on cinderblocks which put their tweeters within a few inches of the center’s tweeters. For movies this setup creates a sort of wall of sound effect (very movie-theater-like) while the pans across the front all stay in the same vertical plane. For 5.1 music the only difference I notice is that on some recordings it sounds like your are near the front row of a concert and looking up a little at the stage. Still seems very natural though.

Is this really what you have set up? With all due respect, that is wacked. Is this your main room, or in the basement?

I think this is a great example of what makes sense versus what is truly the best setup. I'll admit that this probably sounds the best, but how many people would realistically want a tower speaker on top of their TV (physically or aestetically)?

 

[DD66000]

I'm not conviced that having the center above the screen is best, unless you also have one below the screen, which I've already tried. But I didn't keep both, going back to just the one below. A 24" tall speaker above just looked too out of place.

Although I have seen pics of in-wall LCRs that have the center above, I have to admit, that an inwall looks better above the screen than a freestanding vertical tower.

 

[the grunt]

Is this really what you have set up? With all due respect, that is wacked. Is this your main room, or in the basement?

I think this is a great example of what makes sense versus what is truly the best setup. I'll admit that this probably sounds the best, but how many people would realistically want a tower speaker on top of their TV (physically or aestetically)?

Yup that’s my setup. And I agree that it looks absurd. Yes it is my main room as I live in a one bedroom apartment. Here’s some more of what it looks like

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=5&Number=219121&Searchpage=2&Main=15077&Words=grunt&topic=0&Search=true#Post219121

I purchased way more speaker than I needed for an apartment setup to future proof for when I buy a house. I didn’t like the horizontal center I bought and knew that when I got a house I would get a projector and acoustically transparent screen and would want a matching tower as a center. I had already built freestanding scaffolding around the entire room and TV so I could hang curtains (my lease doesn’t allow anything attached to the walls) so there was already a platform above the TV that could hold a heavy speaker. Originally I planed to use a bookshelf speaker to replace the horizontal center but for the hell of it I measured and realized a tower just fit above the TV. I knew I would eventually buy one anyway so I figured I’d give it a try and it works great.

I realize that almost no one is going to be able to duplicate this setup for the reasons you mention however, for the one other person out there who might be facing similar choices I posted the picture just to show it’s possible and that we don’t always have to be slaves to conventional wisdom. Doesn’t hurt that I have no WAF worries and have always been a bit eccentric, ok wacked .

Also from what I’ve been reading at the Axiom forums they are coming out with an in-wall/on-wall or both versions of some of there tower speakers which might make a tower above the RPTV a more viable option for some.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think we all talk about the center speaker just as much as we talk about any other speaker.

I even tried to use a BP7001SC tower as a Center and I loved it.

My plan is to get another BP7000SC for my Center to match the front left & right BP7000SC.

So I also agree with getting 3 identical vertical front speakers.

 

[The Dali]

Yup that’s my setup. And I agree that it looks absurd. Yes it is my main room as I live in a one bedroom apartment. Here’s some more of what it looks like

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=5&Number=219121&Searchpage=2&Main=15077&Words=grunt&topic=0&Search=true#Post219121

I purchased way more speaker than I needed for an apartment setup to future proof for when I buy a house. I didn’t like the horizontal center I bought and knew that when I got a house I would get a projector and acoustically transparent screen and would want a matching tower as a center. I had already built freestanding scaffolding around the entire room and TV so I could hang curtains (my lease doesn’t allow anything attached to the walls) so there was already a platform above the TV that could hold a heavy speaker. Originally I planed to use a bookshelf speaker to replace the horizontal center but for the hell of it I measured and realized a tower just fit above the TV. I knew I would eventually buy one anyway so I figured I’d give it a try and it works great.

I realize that almost no one is going to be able to duplicate this setup for the reasons you mention however, for the one other person out there who might be facing similar choices I posted the picture just to show it’s possible and that we don’t always have to be slaves to conventional wisdom. Doesn’t hurt that I have no WAF worries and have always been a bit eccentric, ok wacked .

Also from what I’ve been reading at the Axiom forums they are coming out with an in-wall/on-wall or both versions of some of there tower speakers which might make a tower above the RPTV a more viable option for some.

I hear ya! Different strokes.

 

[jostenmeat]

Is this really what you have set up? With all due respect, that is wacked. Is this your main room, or in the basement?

I think this is a great example of what makes sense versus what is truly the best setup. I'll admit that this probably sounds the best, but how many people would realistically want a tower speaker on top of their TV (physically or aestetically)?

As they say, don't knock it till you try it... and especially if the lights are turned off, and you can't see it.

I remember it was supervij I believe, who recounted a story. He put a vertical bookshelf on top of display I believe, and thought it looked really stupid. He did mention it performed in a superior manner. He had guests over, expecting the worst, and nobody said a single thing, but they all did they think it sounded great. I have no idea if he left it that way.

I believe that most people are conditioned to horiz MTMs because that's simply what all the photos, big box stores, and furniture magazines always have. We are sheep.

 

[fredk]

If you don't like the totally wacked look and already have your mancard platinum, how about the 'just a little wacked' look?

 

[jamie2112]

I myself don't really care about the center as long as it matches the front L,R.

 

[Alex2507]

I have no WAF worries .

I could tell.

 

[TLS Guy]

It seems we have been over this ground a lot lately. Obviously the center channel speaker needs to get a lot more attention from the industry than it has.

On most rigs I have listened to the center channel speaker does not produce speech with a natural human quality. Worse speech intelligibility is far more often than not poor, especially when there is a lot of action.

At the SOTU event, as I stated in my review The best speech intelligibility was in the Pioneer room, where the speakers had coaxial mid/tweeter units. The second best was in the Sherwood room from five identical bookshelf speakers. Other offerings in this regard were below par.

Chris Seymour gave an excellent review of the problem.

I don't think aesthetics can not be ignored in this problem. The easy solution of using the same drivers as in the mains in horizontal MTM, has exactly the wrong polar response.

The other problem I believe, is that to have a crossover frequency right in the speech discrimination band is a problem. I think the phase and time problems induced contribute to speech intelligibility problems.

I'm not convinced the center has to have the same drivers as the mains.

I designed my center channel speaker to solve a good deal of these problems.

I chose to use a coaxial driver for the center. The mid bass cone acts as a waveguide, to give coverage of just the listening area, with minimal interference pattern affecting the mains. There is time alignment, but some violence to phase in the speech discrimination band from the crossover. However speech clarity and naturalness has been excellent, and the sound stage moves in a seem less fashion, with no change in the character of sounds moving across the sound stage. This speaker is also an excellent music reproducer.

I believe the best options for the center channel are coaxial speakers, good full range drivers, or speakers with no crossover in the speech discrimination band, and also having a suitable polar response.

Coaxial and full range drivers have the best chance of solving the aesthetic problems. However even a vertical speaker angled to the listening position, does not have to look out pf place.

Now in my first floor system, I have a two channel set up. The mid domes are the famous Dynaudio D76.

These domes like the ATC domes have an astonishing bandwidth. They are handling the range 400 Hz to 4 KHz, and are therefore handling the whole of the speech discrimination band. Speech clarity is excellent, and dialog is maintained to the center position over a wide listening area.

I think speech discrimination is easily upset by problems caused by crossover and displacement of drivers on the baffle, that are operating in the speech discrimination band, which is from 1 KHz to 2.5 KHz

 

[jostenmeat]

Good stuff, TLS. I was at one point decently interested in KEF's offerings precisely because they use coaxial drivers. Their implementation offers even shorter height (even when a horizontal speaker is necessitated) than other better-designed horiz centers, such as the WTMW type.

However, I could not justify spending on a new set of front 3. Not yet anyways.

Maybe talk to me tomorrow...