Another fine example that embodies everything that's wrong with this country

[jonnythan]

No, he just screamed, "GET OFF MY LAND!" and pulled the trigger.

Then the incident should be reported to the police. That person clearly violated the law.

 

[jonnythan]

ARS Title 13 Chapter 4 is essentially a list of justifications for the use of force. The chapter enumerates many scenarios where use of force is justified.

Third degree tresspass is not among them. It encompasses things such as burglary, kidnap, manslaughter, types of theft, etc. It does mention that force is OK in defense of premises, but defines premises specifically as any structure or land adapted for human residence and lodging.

I'm no lawyer though, of course.

 

[gmichael]

Then the incident should be reported to the police. That person clearly violated the law.

I think the police would have told us that we didn't belong on his land. You know how teenagers get treated by the police.

 

[jonnythan]

Also note that this is apparently a federal civil rights case, so the Arizona criminal code probably isn't going to apply anyway.

 

[jonnythan]

I think the police would have told us that we didn't belong on his land. You know how teenagers get treated by the police.

Yes, I do know how teenagers get treated by the police.

When I was a teenager, I was at a friend's house playing football in the front yard, partly in the neighbor's yard. He came out with a rifle or shotgun and yelled at us. My friend told his mom.

My friend's mom called the police. The police officers showed up, talked to us kids and to the mom. They were very nice and ended up arresting the neighbor.

Look, you were complaining that illegals would have more rights than you because someone pointed a shotgun at you and didn't get charged. Well, you didn't press charges and you didn't get a lawyer to attempt to sue him. The bottom line is that what that person did to you was potentially illegal, but you didn't do anything about it.

These people are doing something about it.

 

[gmichael]

Yes, I do know how teenagers get treated by the police.

When I was a teenager, I was at a friend's house playing football in the front yard, partly in the neighbor's yard. He came out with a rifle or shotgun and yelled at us. My friend told his mom.

My friend's mom called the police. The police officers showed up, talked to us kids and to the mom. They were very nice and ended up arresting the neighbor.

Look, you were complaining that illegals would have more rights than you because someone pointed a shotgun at you and didn't get charged. Well, you didn't press charges and you didn't get a lawyer to attempt to sue him. The bottom line is that what that person did to you was potentially illegal, but you didn't do anything about it.

These people are doing something about it.

I don't see it that way.
Was the neighbor fined?

 

[unreal.freak]

Ive never been picked for Jury duty, but if i were to sit on the jury in this one id let him off free. At some point, people have to stand up to this sort of bull crap. Who really cares about the rights of someone who's committing a crime? Not me. When a person puts themselves into that situation they need to expect the reactions that go with it. If it were not that way then people would expect to be able to do all other types of crimes without any repercussions. Let someone go rob a bank with a firearm and see what they get for their trouble. It should be no different with the situation the OP has posted.

 

[jonnythan]

Ive never been picked for Jury duty, but if i were to sit on the jury in this one id let him off free. At some point, people have to stand up to this sort of bull crap. Who really cares about the rights of someone who's committing a crime? Not me. When a person puts themselves into that situation they need to expect the reactions that go with it. If it were not that way then people would expect to be able to do all other types of crimes without any repercussions. Let someone go rob a bank with a firearm and see what they get for their trouble. It should be no different with the situation the OP has posted.

With an outlook such as this, you would never be allowed on the jury.

 

[gmichael]

Yes, I do know how teenagers get treated by the police.

When I was a teenager, I was at a friend's house playing football in the front yard, partly in the neighbor's yard. He came out with a rifle or shotgun and yelled at us. My friend told his mom.

My friend's mom called the police. The police officers showed up, talked to us kids and to the mom. They were very nice and ended up arresting the neighbor.

Look, you were complaining that illegals would have more rights than you because someone pointed a shotgun at you and didn't get charged. Well, you didn't press charges and you didn't get a lawyer to attempt to sue him. The bottom line is that what that person did to you was potentially illegal, but you didn't do anything about it.

These people are doing something about it.

As long as they are in court, they get to stay in the country. What would my motive have been? Maybe to get myself in trouble? What would I have gotten out of it? I choose not to go crying to mommy and daddy.

If we keep making the criminals out to be the victims then we'll keep getting more criminals.

 

[jonnythan]

As long as they are in court, they get to stay in the country. What would my motive have been? Maybe to get myself in trouble? What would I have gotten out of it? I choose not to go crying to mommy and daddy.

If we keep making the criminals out to be the victims then we'll keep getting more criminals.

It doesn't matter whether you had motivation to take the guy to court or not. You could have if what you claim is true.

You were bemoaning the falsehood that these immigrants have more rights than you. No, they do not. And the rancher has no more right to hold illegal immigrants prisoner (or murder them) than he does to hold US citizens prisoner.

 

[gmichael]

It doesn't matter whether you had motivation to take the guy to court or not. You could have if what you claim is true.

You were bemoaning the falsehood that these immigrants have more rights than you. No, they do not. And the rancher has no more right to hold illegal immigrants prisoner (or murder them) than he does to hold US citizens prisoner.

I think he did the right thing. And it sure seems like he was getting support from the authorities in the area (that he used to also be part of).

Again, you are protecting the criminals. Good work.

 

[Rickster71]

How to make a Citizen's Arrest:
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Citizen's-Arrest
I would think this would be legal?

 

[jonnythan]

I think he did the right thing. And it sure seems like he was getting support from the authorities in the area (that he used to also be part of).

Again, you are protecting the criminals. Good work.

If someone unknown to me walks across my lawn, and I shoot them in the face without provocation, you would undoubtedly support my arrest and incarceration.

I could claim that you are "protecting the criminals."

That is, of course, ludicrous.

I am not "protecting criminals," even though criminals need the same protection as everyone else. I would not allow a "criminal" to be murdered in the street, nor would I allow a "criminal" to get mugged or his house set on fire.

My only claim here is that the actions of the rancher were illegal.

The laws making actions criminal do not change if the victim is a "criminal." Criminals are not animals or bugs, they cannot simply be abused or killed. Criminals do indeed have rights.

 

[jonnythan]

How to make a Citizen's Arrest:
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Citizen's-Arrest
I would think this would be legal?

From your link:

"If the suspect tries to leave, think very carefully before physically restraining the suspect. Not only will you put yourself in physical danger, but you could be subject to legal liabilities for use of excessive force. You can only use enough force to restrain the suspect. If they manage to run away, then the arrest has not been completed. Also, note that in at least some countries it is illegal to lock up the suspect or tie him to something."

 

[Alex2507]

How to make a Citizen's Arrest:
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Citizen's-Arrest
I would think this would be legal?

Legal?
Well if you shot all the lawyers,
then you could just move right past legal and start doing what's right.

The lawyers on this site are different.

 

[jonnythan]

Let me repost something I posted earlier in the thread:


I should make it clear that I don't disagree with the farmer's actions, necessarily. When the law leaves you high and dry, sometimes you need to take things into your own hands.

But you have to deal with the consequences of your actions, too.


When you decide that you have to take the law into your own hands, there are often consequences. And the right thing to do is to man up and take what's coming.

 

[Matt34]

If someone unknown to me walks across my lawn, and I shoot them in the face without provocation, you would undoubtedly support my arrest and incarceration.

I could claim that you are "protecting the criminals."

That is, of course, ludicrous.

I am not "protecting criminals," even though criminals need the same protection as everyone else. I would not allow a "criminal" to be murdered in the street, nor would I allow a "criminal" to get mugged or his house set on fire.

My only claim here is that the actions of the rancher were illegal.

The laws making actions criminal do not change if the victim is a "criminal." Criminals are not animals or bugs, they cannot simply be abused or killed. Criminals do indeed have rights.

The man has the right to protect his land and his property but our government is leaving the U.S citizens out to dry why it comes to this issue. And it's not just people looking for a better life, it's drug runners, Mexican gangs, the Mexican Army and the coyotes being paid thousands of dollars to bring folks across with most of them being armed.

The way he does it is up for debate and the courts, but this crap is infuriating to land owners here. These damn immigrate-right groups are actively going after land owners by finding illegals that have been deported and claimed abuse, then providing financial support to them in court.

If we had fixed the real problem years ago we would not be in the mess we are now.

 

[jonnythan]

The man has the right to protect his land and his property but our government is leaving the U.S citizens out to dry why it comes to this issue. And it's not just people looking for a better life, it's drug runners, Mexican gangs, the Mexican Army and the coyotes being paid thousands of dollars to bring folks across with most of them being armed.

The way he does it is up for debate and the courts but this crap is infuriating to land owners here. These damn immigrate-Right groups are actively going after land owners by finding illegals that have been deported and claimed abuse, then providing financial support to them in court.

If we had fixed the real problem years ago we would not be in the mess we are now.

That I can understand and absolutely agree with.

 

[unreal.freak]

With an outlook such as this, you would never be allowed on the jury.

Your right, and thats why they have alot of trouble picking juries in such cases. Its because there are more people that feel the same way as i do on this issue, than feel the same as you.


I wish you could live down there and get some first hand experience with this. You would find out real quick that the law isnt going to help you one bit. heck i cant even get the law to write tickets around here for loud music in the city limits.

On friday and saturday night the citizens of our town just as well stay up till 3:00 AM. The kids ride around till then with the music cranked way up. If the law wont handle that they sure as heck arent going to chase down illegal immigrants in your back 40 acres.

When you were a small kid your mom or dad probably spanked you to keep you in line. That was the reason you thought twice before you did the thing that got you a spanking. well the same should go in this case. If the criminal doesnt have any incentive to not do crime, whats he gonna continue doing......yup you guessed it, CRIME!

The guy in Texas has money and land, thats the ONLY reason he is being sued. Someone wants a free ride at his expense. I bet you think thats ok too right?

 

[jonnythan]

Your right, and thats why they have alot of trouble picking juries in such cases. Its because there are more people that feel the same way as i do on this issue, than feel the same as you.

This isn't about how I "feel" about anything. It's about what the law is.

I already said I sympathize with the guy. You don't need to lecture me on what it's like, and you don't need to insult and attack me. All I'm doing is trying to look at what the law actually is and how it applies, not what it should be or whether what anyone did was "right" or not.

I'm not your enemy here. I'm not passing moral judgments. I'm just looking at what the law is.